Explosions in Manchester

[docyabut2]

1 hour ago, Frank Merton said:

There are plenty of terrorists out there of all sorts of groups.  What do you propose -- a pogrom to eliminate Islam from the world?  I think your attitude is at a minimum completely unrealistic, besides being a sample of serious prejudice.

No but we could sure hit all their  command head quarters all over the middle east ,  just like in Hitler`s war

Every county that was attacked  will send out planes to retaliate. So why can`nt we all get together and wiped out these  bullies ?  Afraid there will be to many innocents killed? but how many innocents lives have already  been lost  due to their ideology.?

Edited May 24, 2017 by docyabut2

[Likely Guy]

34 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

No but we could sure hit all their  command head quarters all over the middle east ,  just like in Hitler`s war

Every county that was attacked  will send out planes to retaliate. So why can`nt we all get together and wiped out these  bullies ?  Afraid there will be to many innocents killed? but how many innocents lives have already  been lost  due to their ideology.?

So, your answer is to have more innocents probably killed, creating more radicals.

That's been tried, it doesn't work.

It would be nice if all the bullies would stick to the same area for a while, and let us know when that will happen though.

Maybe we could e-mail all the bad guys to stand in a big 'X' in the desert so they can receive their lottery winnings?

Edited May 24, 2017 by Likely Guy

[Dark_Grey]

25 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

So, your answer is to have more innocents probably killed, creating more radicals.

That's been tried, it doesn't work.

It would be nice if all the bullies would stick to the same area for a while, and let us know when that will happen though.

Maybe we could e-mail all the bad guys to stand in a big 'X' in the desert so they can receive their lottery winnings?

You're very good at shutting down any proposals involving violence so I have to assume your plan involves more flowers and "solidarity"? If I include a British flag in my Facebook profile picture, is that showing support for Manchester or is it racist because it supports Nationalism?

Seriously though - in your own words, how would you solve this clearly escalating threat?

 

[AnchorSteam]

2 hours ago, Setton said:

As a rule, if there seems to be an obvious solution but no-one's doing it, there's a good reason for that.

Care to name it?

I never hear this big solution from your side, only more reasons why there are no solutions and why Terorism is part & parcel of daily life now, so just suck it up. 

2 hours ago, Setton said:

The only post more disgusting than suggesting these kids had it coming because governments bombed other countries...

Which I did NOT post, but your desperation is showing when you bring up unrelated garbage like that.

2 hours ago, Setton said:

You can be a particularly vile poster can't you? You'd mock people for showing their support for victims and families at a time like this? It's because they have something called empathy, something that's apparently alien to you.

Vile?!

Ask the frakking Families that have been shattered what that word means to them, okay? I'm sure it does not have anything to do with words on Social Media, but words like shrapnel, nerve-damage, PTSD and under-sized coffins are more on their minds today.

Damnit, where is your head?

 

Empathy is an emotion, which is something I do not allow to rule my rational life.

Try it.

What I am mocking is the idea that repeating the same action over and over again while expecting some new result. You know what Freud called that, right?

Insanity. 

 

2 hours ago, Setton said:

As for 'watching a distant cousin sink into morbid addiction and self-destruction', I would remind you which country started these wars.

According to ISIS, it was the Crusaders. According to bin Ladin, it was your country and it's heavy-handed Colonialism. According to the "Arab Street", it was Israel. According to the wild-eyed Mullahs, it is the fault of the decadent West and the fact that people like you and I are still drawing breath without bowing towards Mecca.

For someone that demands empathy, you aren't very good at getting into the head of the enemy, are you?

2 hours ago, Setton said:

YOU dragged us in to support you, you can ****ing support us through the consequences or at the very least sit down, shut up and show some respect.

This is the consequence of the failure of Multiculturalism, and a legion of other mistakes you have made along the way to allowing your country to be invaded by some very nasty creatures.

Okay, so we "dragged" you in? Fine, next time, we'll just Nuke Kabul and Tora Bora, and you guys can stay home. 

Better?

2 hours ago, Setton said:

You have the luxury of several thousand miles of ocean to keep you safe. We have to be watching constantly. It should be a point of pride, not derision that the UK continues to be in a position to offer aid to people in need while having security services so effective that we made it over a decade without a major attack on British soil. Can you claim the same record, even with an entire ocean to help you?

Of course not, this is the Jet Age, what does an Ocean mean?

But then, only Obama and his cronies were trying to virtue-signal to the world at large how wonderful they were by bringing in all the maniacs who hate us into the country.

YOU guys made it a national fetish. 

Reap as you have sewn. 

2 hours ago, Setton said:

No. And yet we stand by you through every atrocity.

Oh, atrocity, eh?

Yeah, sure, okay.... but why not? You have bent over backwards to pretend that no Islamic atrocity ever even happened! 

2 hours ago, Setton said:

'We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us.'

Tell it to Imam Choudary -

This was  years ago, and you guys only got around to shutting him down a few weeks ago.

 

 

[Clarakore]

Quote

Abedi had traveled to Libya within the last 12 months, one of multiple countries he had visited, the official said. And while he had "clear ties to al Qaeda," the official said, Abedi could have also had connections to other groups.

Members of his own family had even informed on him in the past, telling British authorities that he was dangerous, according to the intelligence official.

...

ISIS has claimed credit for the deadly attack, but so far neither British nor U.S. authorities have been able to link Abedi to the fanatical Islamic organization, which has inspired other lethal terrorist attacks in Europe.

Abedi, however, was known to British police and intelligence services, government sources told NBC News.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/manchester-concert-explosion/manchester-bomb-suspect-said-have-had-ties-al-qaeda-terrorism-n763691

[F3SS]

Known, warnings from family, clear ties to al-queda. How exactly could they let him roam the streets? Goodness.

[aztek]

15 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Known, warnings from family, clear ties to al-queda. How exactly could they let him roam the streets? Goodness.

by design

[seeder]

1 hour ago, AnchorSteam said:

Tell it to Imam Choudary -

This was  years ago, and you guys only got around to shutting him down a few weeks ago.

 

 

 

Few weeks ago?  You might want to check your facts.....

[aztek]

he is just a tip of the iceberg, a tiny tip we can see,

[+susieice]

 I found a link that says 12 children under the age of 16 were taken to hospital. Such horror in what happened there. I'm so sorry that this young girl is amongst the dead. I saw her mother talk to CNN and this breaks my heart. I'm angry likely guy... 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/23/europe/manchester-arena-missing-girl/

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/23/12-children-under-16-are-among-manchester-terror-attack-injured-6655858/

Edited May 24, 2017 by susieice

[Frank Merton]

1 hour ago, aztek said:

he is just a tip of the iceberg, a tiny tip we can see,

I would predict that once the various groups in the Middle East are ground into the dust, this sort of thing (terrorists acts) in the West will drop back down to more normal levels (it will never disappear -- remember Oklahoma City).

[Space Commander Travis]

5 hours ago, I hide behind words said:

Abedi, however, was known to British police and intelligence services

Funny how you hear that every single time, isn't it. but what's Britain's increasingly authoritarian Prime Minister Theresa May doing? More Troops On The Streets. Hands up anyone who thinks this will possibly be able to prevent anything?

[Space Commander Travis]

5 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

You're very good at shutting down any proposals involving violence

How would Blitzing Whoever (as I'm sure Britain's increasingly authoritarian Prime Minister Theresa May is itching to do right now) be likely to prevent this, or any of the other attacks there've ever been in any Western country since 9/11? They don't need to have a Mastermind masterminding things, they don't need an organisation to give them orders and instructions. Attacking some other country would have not the slightest effect at all. In fact, it would just give twisted individuals - and individuals is the key word here - more motivation or excuse, and certainly give their preachers more ammunition to poison their minds with.

[Space Commander Travis]

8 hours ago, Setton said:

Then you have no way of tracking down the ones who aren't on a watch list yet.

Hold on, "the ones who aren't on a watch list yet"? So deport every single one just in case, is the only possible conclusion that could lead to. 

[Setton]

22 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Hold on, "the ones who aren't on a watch list yet"? So deport every single one just in case, is the only possible conclusion that could lead to. 

Precisely. That's what makes such a suggestion impossible. There will be extremists out there the security services aren't aware of yet. The only way to become aware of them is through their contact with those on watch lists. If you deport all those on a watch list, you'll never find the others. 

[quillius]

17 minutes ago, Setton said:

Precisely. That's what makes such a suggestion impossible. There will be extremists out there the security services aren't aware of yet. The only way to become aware of them is through their contact with those on watch lists. If you deport all those on a watch list, you'll never find the others. 

 

whilst I understand your point and in general see validity to it, I would argue that a high percentage of events thus far have been carried out by someone 'on' the watchlist, therefore rather than leaving 3000 on the list and in the country in the hope of finding more, get rid of them. Simply leaving them free to roam around isn't working..how much more proof of that do we need?

I thought hard last night about the second solution I proposed of taking down all mosques. This may seem harsh, I would therefore be willing to compromise and suggest only a handful remain and that the government are allowed to keep someone posted in every mosque to ensure they are simply used for praying and not anything more sinister...and if people feel that is unfair then tough.

You have an overriding message that this is all done in the name of god etc etc and that their religion is more important than anything else....If this is true would they not leave of their own accord if they did not have the mosques to pray in?

Its about time our LAWS and our safety trumps their religion, if this is unacceptable then again I say tough! move away where you can fully practise your religions and your differing laws. If you want to live in the UK then our Laws and safety will be put before your religion.

 

 

[Torchwood]

This thread depresses me - not just because of the reasons I posted it, but because of the reactions of some of the posters.

The calls to knock down mosques and chuck anyone and everyone out the country seem a bit over the top. I wondered if it was justified so I dug out the old google translate and set off into the depths of the internet to see how Muslim communities were reacting to  the news. 

I found a large number of comments that - either google translate couldn't cope with or which were simply incomprehensible gibberish in the first place- they looked like quotations from religious texts. Couldn't make head nor tail of what they meant. 

A few seemed think it was all Irans fault, and praised the security of Saudi Arabia for keeping them safe.  Though here was some disagreement on this I gather- Saudi Arabia is seen as Trumps lapdog.  A few blamed, of all people, Hillary Clinton.

Many were quick to try and distance Islam itself from the atrocity, and point out that Islam does not teach anyone to bomb people.

But I think the main point of view expressed wasn't so much that the west (and even parts of the ME) is hated but simply full of hypocrites- quick to condemn some activities of terrorists but not others. 

Didn't actually find much support for the Bomber, and one website which seemed rather pro ISIS hardly even mentioned it.  I think only two people mentioned him at all and said he wasn't a true muslim.  Such condemnation may sound hollow to western ears but I recall from my medieval history studies that in Medieval and Elizabethen England calling someone an Atheist was tantamount to saying they weren't really human or didnt exist, and was, insofar as these things can be measured, a powerful and damning insult. I'd guess that for Muslims something similar is true. 

in summation I really don't think a broadbrush approach of treating all Muslims alike and as potential terrorists is going to work. 

Sorry I have no links- I don't speak arabic so half the time I wasnt entirely sure whose website I was looking at!

 

edit- oh and as for the whole "who started it" thing- the site that sounded a bit pro isis was quite happy to take it all the way back to the Romans,

And was anyone else aware of the Massacres in Libya a few days ago?  A trigger perhaps?

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Torchwood

[quillius]

39 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

This thread depresses me - not just because of the reasons I posted it, but because of the reactions of some of the posters.

The calls to knock down mosques and chuck anyone and everyone out the country seem a bit over the top. I wondered if it was justified so I dug out the old google translate and set off into the depths of the internet to see how Muslim communities were reacting to  the news. 

I found a large number of comments that - either google translate couldn't cope with or which were simply incomprehensible gibberish in the first place- they looked like quotations from religious texts. Couldn't make head nor tail of what they meant. 

A few seemed think it was all Irans fault, and praised the security of Saudi Arabia for keeping them safe.  Though here was some disagreement on this I gather- Saudi Arabia is seen as Trumps lapdog.  A few blamed, of all people, Hillary Clinton.

Many were quick to try and distance Islam itself from the atrocity, and point out that Islam does not teach anyone to bomb people.

But I think the main point of view expressed wasn't so much that the west (and even parts of the ME) is hated but simply full of hypocrites- quick to condemn some activities of terrorists but not others. 

Didn't actually find much support for the Bomber, and one website which seemed rather pro ISIS hardly even mentioned it.  I think only two people mentioned him at all and said he wasn't a true muslim.  Such condemnation may sound hollow to western ears but I recall from my medieval history studies that in Medieval and Elizabethen England calling someone an Atheist was tantamount to saying they weren't really human or didnt exist, and was, insofar as these things can be measured, a powerful and damning insult. I'd guess that for Muslims something similar is true. 

in summation I really don't think a broadbrush approach of treating all Muslims alike and as potential terrorists is going to work. 

Sorry I have no links- I don't speak arabic so half the time I wasnt entirely sure whose website I was looking at!

 

edit- oh and as for the whole "who started it" thing- the site that sounded a bit pro isis was quite happy to take it all the way back to the Romans,

And was anyone else aware of the Massacres in Libya a few days ago?  A trigger perhaps?

 

I would revert back to my previous analogy of 100 people in my house and only 1 is a killer.....If I cannot successfully find him...quickly...then I would have to remove all 100.......and as I said before, the 100 would all continue to live......unlike the children of manchester !!!

[aztek]

49 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

This thread depresses me - not just because of the reasons I posted it, but because of the reactions of some of the posters.

 

it depresses me too,  how can anyone be so stupid to put feelings above life. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by aztek

[aztek]

42 minutes ago, quillius said:

I would revert back to my previous analogy of 100 people in my house and only 1 is a killer.....If I cannot successfully find him...quickly...then I would have to remove all 100.......and as I said before, the 100 would all continue to live......unlike the children of manchester !!!

its not even that complicated, you got 100 people in your house, 5 of them , are knows thieves, and other 5 known to hate you  , you do not kick all out, you kick out those 10 that you know are up to no good. 90 stay, unless someone of them gives you a reason to believe he is up to no good. 

you also make 10 out of those 90 keep watch ,  and rotate them, in case any of those previous  10 returns to retaliate for being thrown out.  if they do not want to contribute to safety of the house, throw them out too.

Edited May 24, 2017 by aztek

[LV-426]

51 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

A massacre in Libya a few days ago.  

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-39972847

If this scumbag murderer was more interested in the affairs of Libya, he should have been living in Libya, and dying in Libya.

This is why there is so much furore about unchecked immigration.

Manchester attack: Who was Salman Abedi?

His parents were given refuge in Britain after fleeing Libya. They were given shelter, safety and freedom in a new country, as are many.

This scumbag had all the same opportunities I did while growing up. He lived in a leafy suburb of the North West. He had all the same access to free health care, education, welfare, etc. that was available to myself.

How did he repay the kindness and welcome of a country that was prepared to give him all these advantages? He brutally murdered the softest targets he could find, including children.

"Manchester is home to one of the largest Libyan communities in the UK, and neighbours have talked about the family having a Libyan flag flying in its house at certain times of the year.

BBC home editor Mark Easton said the raided area was known to have been home to a number of Islamist extremists in recent years; some with links to Syria and Libya; some alive and some dead."

We're doing the same thing now with Syrian refugees, and it will end with the same tragic consequences, until the powers that be wake up to the fact that many of these refugees are bringing their national loyalties, religious zealotry and political issues with them, and not simply looking to start a new life in a new country.

[quillius]

Just now, aztek said:

its not even that complicated, you got 100 people in your house, 5 of them , are knows thieves, and other 5 known to hate you  , you do not kick all out, you kick out those 10 that you know are up to no good. 90 stay, unless someone of them gives you a reason to believe he is up to no good. 

well yes, if identifying the 10 can be done........

what if you can only identify 8? (also rather than thieves, lets use murderers)......do you still let 92 stay?? personally I would have them all out to ENSURE safety, and as you rightly mentioned previously...life should be above feelings.....so I do not care that I have upset 90 people......because by doing this I have saved lives!

 

[aztek]

5 minutes ago, quillius said:

well yes, if identifying the 10 can be done........

what if you can only identify 8? (also rather than thieves, lets use murderers)......do you still let 92 stay?? personally I would have them all out to ENSURE safety, and as you rightly mentioned previously...life should be above feelings.....so I do not care that I have upset 90 people......because by doing this I have saved lives!

 

i got a better solution you would not need to do any of that if you do not let those 100 even come to your house. it would be even better, do not try to solve a problem, prevent it.  but it is too late now, i suppose.

Edited May 24, 2017 by aztek

[quillius]

Just now, aztek said:

i got a better solution you would not need to do any of that if you do not let those 100 even come to your house. it would be even better, do not try to solve a problem, prevent it. 

that would indeed be a better solution...too late though, however we can stop the 100 becoming 200 with 2 killers!....

 

[skliss]

Just a side note...I was surprised that Grande hopped the first flight home to the U.S. Dummy me, I expected that she would stick around and do some hospital visits....what was I thinking?!