Explosions in Manchester

[seeder]

see the pics
 

Quote

 

Pictured minutes before committing mass murder: CCTV shows Manchester suicide bomber sauntering towards Ariana Grande concert on night of his attack

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40072786

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by seeder

[RavenHawk]

On 5/24/2017 at 9:16 PM, Frank Merton said:

I wonder how I can show you that it is not Islam itself, but only radical elements in Islam,

You can't show anything of the kind.  It is core Islam.  Anything you think you can show only applies to within the Ummah and nothing for Dar al-Harb.

and that the religion, like all Abrahamic religions, has regrettable teachings that can be overcome over time with patience

That is misleading.  The teachings of Christ and the teachings of the Church have been divergent at times.  The teachings of Mohammed have never varied from the beginning.

and showing how they conflict with the higher morality also in these religions.  

The higher morality in Islam is to purify the corruption in the land.  It's actually a noble cause but that cause conflicts with the rest of the world.

The problem now is mostly Islam because of the refugee problems and the civil wars.  

The problem is with the ideology and it’s inability to mature in modernity.

Christianity went through a very similar period.  

That period didn't last much more than 100 years.  Islam is still in this period and has been for 1400 years.

There remain radical Christians now, spewing hate,

The most important difference is that the radical Christian doesn't drive the Christian bus.  I.e. the Salafist drives the Muslim bus.

but for the most part they have leaned that terrorism is counter-productive.

Terrorism is very effective and productive.  Look at the turmoil it is leaving Europe in.

Also, I see nothing to be achieved by blaming the religion

If you don't blame (or engage) the religion then it won't accept its responsibility to reform.

when all agree that there are many if not most Muslims who are good people and deserve good treatment.

Most Muslims believe it Sharia law.  If they deserve good treatment then they need to earn it by renouncing Sharia law.
 

It would not be possible nor morally acceptable to try to eliminate the relligion,

No one is trying to remove Islam, but Islam is finding it quite possible and morally acceptable to remove Christianity via Hijrah.

yet that is the implied procedure in blaming the religion for the terrorism.

That is incorrect.  By blaming the religion you put the onus on them because if they don't do it, we will and that won't be pretty.

There are obviously no easy solutions, but vigil and persistence over time will help.  

No, there are no easy solutions but putting the responsibility where it belongs *IS* vigil and persistence.  And we don't have more time.

Also important will be the steady elimination from the Middle East itself of the inspirations for this sort of violence

The inspiration is the semi-divine attribute of Mohammed and the ideology of Islam.  If that weren't the case there'd be no need for reform. There wouldn't be radical Islamic terrorists.

-- and most Muslim countries are devoted to just that.

A few seem to be, only because of the leadership Trump is showing.  This is something that had been missing in the last 8 years.
 

[RavenHawk]

On 5/24/2017 at 8:56 PM, Frank Merton said:

Christianity was no different, but it reformed.  Even now you see signs of major change in attitudes in Iran and the Gulf.

Yes, Christianity reformed after a devastating 30 year war.  Islam as been at it for 1400 years with no reform.  There are no signs of change in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shia or even in ideology.

[Frank Merton]

45 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, Christianity reformed after a devastating 30 year war.  Islam as been at it for 1400 years with no reform.  There are no signs of change in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shia or even in ideology.

That is deliberately trying to create hate and is quite the opposite of the reality.

[Space Commander Travis]

55 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Yes, Christianity reformed after a devastating 30 year war.  Islam as been at it for 1400 years with no reform.  There are no signs of change in the Middle East between Sunnis and Shia or even in ideology.

Islam has only been a threat to the rest of the world since WWII, when, coincidentally?, Western involvement in Islamic heartlands in the Middle East has increased tremendously. They may have been fighting among themselves for a long time prior to that, but they were hardly a threat to anyone else.

[Frank Merton]

The most common view of most historians of the Middle East was that it was a combination of Christian other-worldliness and the Muslim conquest the brought Europe to its knees in the Middle Ages (the two were a couple centuries apart -- these things take time.  Then the Muslims brought themselves down with internal fighting.

Islam has since been rather isolated, and its contacts with Christianity have not been pleasant -- usually caused by Christians.

You see now the dawning (it will take generations -- look how long bigotry has lasted in the US -- but slowly the ideas and values of the enlightenment and of science are penetrating.  It will be a long and often bloody struggle, but it seems to me the tide of history is on the liberal (not politically liberal but freedom and tolerance) side.

In the end, the various devices the religions use to hold people (ignorance, childhood indoctrination, fear tactics, compulsion, the idea of "faith" and other tricks) will fail and religion will gradually lose out and disappear, except for maybe a few quaint customs.

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Islam has only been a threat to the rest of the world since WWII, when, coincidentally?, Western involvement in Islamic heartlands in the Middle East has increased tremendously. They may have been fighting among themselves for a long time prior to that, but they were hardly a threat to anyone else.

google: "map of the spread of Islam" and tell me what you mean by - "hardly a threat to anyone else".  It was spread by conquest, by the sword.  No, people were not made to convert at knife point, exactly.  But the Sharia was imposed after the people were conquered and if they wanted to live, work or have any peace, they converted.  You are correct that we in the West "meddled" in the M.E. beginning around the inter war period, if by meddling you mean we began helping them harvest a resource for the betterment(?) of the world while enriching them above every other group of people on the planet.  The fact that their leaders were and are selfish, cruel b******* on the whole, is not OUR doing.  Face it, if the oil wealth of that area had been equitably put to work in the lives of the peoples of the M.E. they would, as a group, still be better off than any people on the globe.  But go ahead and lay the blame for our mistakes, their mistakes and every ill consequence in the world at the feet of the West.  I'm sure they'd agree with you.  After all, they have no real responsibility for their actions, now do they?  See, THAT is what bothers me most about these blanket indictments I see from you.  You never accept the role that others play in this little dance of history.  I guess it's easier to leave that part out while haranguing the source of all evil.  It's myopic and dishonest at best.

[Lilly]

Oil gave these folks wealth and power, wealth and power that has been too often misused by their leaders. And when this wealth and power falls into the hands of the religious extremist clerics, really bad things begin to happen.

[The Caspian Hare]

Armed police patrol on site can respond to a Mumbai/Westgate/Bataclan style assault and make a difference there, problem is terrorists will eventually change tactics or hit an unprotected target

[RavenHawk]

9 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Islam has only been a threat to the rest of the world since WWII, when, coincidentally?, Western involvement in Islamic heartlands in the Middle East has increased tremendously. They may have been fighting among themselves for a long time prior to that, but they were hardly a threat to anyone else.

Outside of the Arab world, tell that to the Visigoths, Byzantines, Persians, Hindu kingdoms to the east, etc.  So called Western involvement began much earlier.  That point is definitely arguable but post WWII wouldn't even be a candidate.  What's happening is just that the world is getting smaller and Islam is too xenophobic to advance in Modernity.  The Sunnis and Shia have been fighting each other since the beginning and with the world getting smaller, their quarrels are going to spill over onto everyone else.  The World has no more patience to afford the Islamic World to get their act together.  The threat remains the greatest danger to the planet currently.

[RavenHawk]

10 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

That is deliberately trying to create hate and is quite the opposite of the reality.

The hate had already been created 1400 years ago.  That is the reality.  Acknowledging that confronts that hate.  Sure, that hate then b****es and complains because it has been found out, but it can't spread like a virus.

[hetrodoxly]

10 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

That is deliberately trying to create hate and is quite the opposite of the reality.

It's fact and pretending otherwise is part of the problem.

[RavenHawk]

10 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

The most common view of most historians of the Middle East was that it was a combination of Christian other-worldliness and the Muslim conquest the brought Europe to its knees in the Middle Ages (the two were a couple centuries apart -- these things take time.  Then the Muslims brought themselves down with internal fighting.

I couldn't disagree more.  Islam has never brought Europe to her knees.  Yes, Islam has invaded Europe on several occasions but those were stopped dead in their tracks.  The in-fighting is definitely a major reason that such a malignancy has not swept the globe.  But still, even without a Caliphate, the ideology can direct itself.

Islam has since been rather isolated, and its contacts with Christianity have not been pleasant -- usually caused by Christians.

It is isolated because it is xenophobic.  When you see mass migration, there's no intent to assimilate.  If you mean that contact with Christendom has been unpleasant just because Christians exist and hamper Islamic expansion, then yes, I can see your point.  But the fact is, is that early contact between the two were always unpleasant as Islam was the belligerent.  Christendom itself had to become militant in order to stand its ground.

You see now the dawning (it will take generations -- look how long bigotry has lasted in the US -- but slowly the ideas and values of the enlightenment and of science are penetrating.  It will be a long and often bloody struggle, but it seems to me the tide of history is on the liberal (not politically liberal but freedom and tolerance) side.

Bigotry exists in all nations.  If you are referring to the racial unrest in this country, was not so much an issue until Obama had stirred up divisiveness that wasn't there.  There's one thing trying to reopen old wounds and creating new ones, labeling them old ones to create anarchy.  The Islamic Golden Age (enlightenment & science) died out over a thousand years ago.  The tide of Islam is an eddy and has been stagnant for a very long time.  You're right about it going to be bloody because it will take the influence from nation building to bring freedom and tolerance to the Muslim world.

In the end, the various devices the religions use to hold people (ignorance, childhood indoctrination, fear tactics, compulsion, the idea of "faith" and other tricks) will fail and religion will gradually lose out and disappear, except for maybe a few quaint customs.

You have a one sided view of religion.  Yes indeed, it is a form of mass control, but it is also a source of great comfort and guidance.  You are confusing faith with religion.  True, at times they can be interchanged but in this reference faith is individualistic.  Faith is a core attribute of everyone.  It's something that won't ever be programmed out of Mankind.  Religions may change but never faith.
 

[Frank Merton]

I can only say that it is really worrisome how limited in view and provincial some Americans are.  Their knowledge is entirely seen from an American perspective, with no real conception of how the world really is.  I have no desire to argue point by point as it is obvious the prejudice is so deeply ingrained and the sense of human compassion just simply not present.

All I can do is encourage people to try to be open minded and understanding and compassionate -- probably many if not most Americans are, but sadly we see the end of mankind approaching and thee attitudes will do the trick.

[docyabut2]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:18 PM, seeder said:

 

they could still use regular sports bags...or even regular shopping bags....and we cant ban every bag

They should put a way out side perimeter to all events banding all back packs. All one needs is a little money, a  ticket and the keys to their cars, to get in.    

[hetrodoxly]

55 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

I can only say that it is really worrisome how limited in view and provincial some Americans are.  Their knowledge is entirely seen from an American perspective, with no real conception of how the world really is.  I have no desire to argue point by point as it is obvious the prejudice is so deeply ingrained and the sense of human compassion just simply not present.

All I can do is encourage people to try to be open minded and understanding and compassionate -- probably many if not most Americans are, but sadly we see the end of mankind approaching and thee attitudes will do the trick.

I'm not American, it's you who needs to open their mind and face up to what we're dealing with, this thread is about people who've been blown to bits and kiddies not yet buried, tell me who should i be showing compassion to and why?

[Frank Merton]

42 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I'm not American, it's you who needs to open their mind and face up to what we're dealing with, this thread is about people who've been blown to bits and kiddies not yet buried, tell me who should i be showing compassion to and why?

I'm not defending terrorism and I resent very much the implication that I am.  That is, sir, a gross insult.

[Frank Merton]

I remember a taxi ride in Copenhagen where the driver was from Alexandria.  It was a friendly conversation, until the talk turned to the Danes.  Now one cannot imagine a more liberal group of people -- humble, hard working, compassionate -- and, still, the driver says to me while he loves the Danes, there are Fascists here too.

It is I think partly stupidity and part ignorance --  such as the statement that the Muslims never conquered Europe.  Of course they didn't -- the man hasn't the intelligence to recognize a simple metaphor.  As I read it I realized trying to persuade some people to be generous and not blame all Muslims for the acts of a few is hopeless.  We are in 1939 again, but it is not Germany but America and it is not Jews but Muslims.

[F3SS]

Yea it's nothing even remotely like that.

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I'm not defending terrorism and I resent very much the implication that I am.  That is, sir, a gross insult.

Well again i ask, 'who should i be showing compassion to and why?'

[Frank Merton]

Just now, hetrodoxly said:

Well again i ask, 'who should i be showing compassion to and why?'

We show compassion to everyone, because it is our moral obligation.  Of course Christianity has the "eye for an eye" stuff, so Christians have an excuse for not loving their neighbor as the love themselves.

 

[Frank Merton]

4 hours ago, F3SS said:

Yea it's nothing even remotely like that.

Are you sure?  You strike me as one of those who would rush to join the black shirts.  Well, maybe not yet -- a few more developments are needed but that is the way people like you are headed.

[Frank Merton]

1 minute ago, hetrodoxly said:

Jews were blowing themselves up around the world, and what is actual happening to Muslims in America?

History never repeats itself exactly, so in rationalizing your hate message you can always find excuses and slight differences.  I am looking at the broad pattern.

[hetrodoxly]

2 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

We show compassion to everyone, because it is our moral obligation.  Of course Christianity has the "eye for an eye" stuff, so Christians have an excuse for not loving their neighbor as the love themselves.

 

The restraint we show is beyond belief.

[seeder]

At last!!
 

Quote

 

Major powers to ban jihadis who have fought with ISIS from returning to Britain are used for the first time

    Up until last week Temporary Exclusion Orders had never been used by Gov't
    Yesterday incumbent Home Secretary said they had 'started' to be used  
    Powers give authorities chance to ban jihadists from returning to the UK

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4550994/Major-powers-ban-jihadis-returning-UK-used-once.html#ixzz4iTP7gdIe