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Explosions in Manchester


Torchwood
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Initially, the then Prime Minister wanted to ban them from returning. But the plan was watered down after being savaged by MPs and legal experts for being unlawful, as it would effectively leave British citizens stateless.

Why are simple ssecurity measures so difficult to pass? This ban isn't even permanent. Way too much concern is being shown for the rights of people who want to destroy their own civilizations; these fighters should be stripped of citizenship and left to rot in whatever hellhole they fled to. (That is if they are not drone-bombed into a thousand pieces to begin with.)

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6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

We show compassion to everyone, because it is our moral obligation.  Of course Christianity has the "eye for an eye" stuff, so Christians have an excuse for not loving their neighbor as the love themselves.

 

Well turning the other check is not working

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On 27/05/2017 at 8:22 PM, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Can you explain how more armed troops striding up and down toting machine guns might be remotely likely to put a stop to terrorism?

If I see police, especially armed police, on the streets, I feel less safe.  I am not used to seeing them ...  Why are they there?  I must be in danger ....

(I was in Birmingham last Sunday to see Iron Maiden.  Tens of thousand of fans.   Many enjoying a few beers on a fine sunny afternoon before the concert.  No trouble.  And I didnt see a single policeman the whole afternoon/evening - it was only next day that it even occurred to me that this was in any way odd.)
 
There was a story in our local paper about how there would be more police prescence in our town following the Manchester murders (though to be fair, 1 policeman 1 hour a week would be a lot more than we normally get).  This is a small rural market town and the only muslims are very welcome providers of "Indian" takeaways.  We have more chance of being hit by a comet than a terrorist attack ...

But the point is, you are quite correct: a policeman on the street - armed or otherwise - does not prevent a terrorist attack.  Especially when the terrorist is going to kill himself in the process anyway.   All he does is mean one less policeman to track down and find those who might be planning murder.

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15 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I can only say that it is really worrisome how limited in view and provincial some Americans are.  Their knowledge is entirely seen from an American perspective, with no real conception of how the world really is.  I have no desire to argue point by point as it is obvious the prejudice is so deeply ingrained and the sense of human compassion just simply not present.

All I can do is encourage people to try to be open minded and understanding and compassionate -- probably many if not most Americans are, but sadly we see the end of mankind approaching and thee attitudes will do the trick.

Wow!  What ignorance.  Being American does not equate to limited world view or being provincial.  *That* thinking is limited.  I would imagine if you asked any of those that died from Islamic terrorism in France, England, or America would share the same perspective.  Acknowledging how the real world is, is not prejudice.  What compassion is shown the non-believer in all of this?

There are somethings that where keeping such an open mind is being stupid and naïve.  You seem to be one of those with no understanding of how the world works and no compassion for the victims of terrorism.  It is that attitude that will bring the downfall of Man.

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12 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Are you sure?  You strike me as one of those who would rush to join the black shirts.  Well, maybe not yet -- a few more developments are needed but that is the way people like you are headed.

Says the most judgmental generalizer on this forum. You're comparing today's United States to NAZI Germany. That's absolutely insane. Radical Islam shares a much closer mentality to NAZIism. They're the ones who want to wipe off anyone who isn't them yet you treat us with shock and awe for being outraged about it.

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7 hours ago, seeder said:

At last!!

Major powers to ban jihadis who have fought with ISIS from returning to Britain are used for the first time

Well that seems a little racist...

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Yes that isn't culturally sensitiive or inviting to diversity. We are supposed to be tolerant of every culture, what they like and what makes them angry and why. It is for us to accept yet nobody is supposed to accept us as generous and tolerant as we are?

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9 hours ago, The Silver Thong said:

Well turning the other check is not working

How do you know -- it hasn't been tried?  There are evil people -- it is naive to say they aren't, and there are laws and institutions set up to deal with them -- in some countries even executions.  I do not say we have to be stupid and let people set off bomb after bomb after bomb -- we just have to be wise and realize these are not common but outliers -- that even though one can quote unfortunate parts of the Q'uran, one can do the same of the Bible, but that does not make all Jews and Christians evil.

This does not mean we cannot be compassionate.  It does not mean we cannot strive to understand what is going on rather than just judge and condemn.  It is plain that Islam is a backward religion -- its governments mostly are feudal, its family attitudes abhorrent, its attitude toward other religions intolerant.  These are facts -- now where does one go from there -- to hate or to understanding and compassion?  Just for one's own mental health and happiness, compassion is far better than bitterness or hate -- and, I think, in the long run (it will take time) this is the only way to get Islam up to Enlightenment standards -- and to get ourselves there too.

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2 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

How do you know -- it hasn't been tried? 

We have been turning the other cheak  for years man, the left deffends every terrorist attack and even rape. The inclusion of Sharia law  for gods sake. What has happened to the left. 

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Keep calm and carry on, march for peace and hold candle light vigils. That's been the standard protocol reaction to every bombing on our streets for the last 15 years. One is insane violence and the other is the definition of peacefulness. I couldn't imagine a more polar opposite reaction to our citizens being blown to pieces. It doesn't get more turning the other cheek than that.

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Oh wait, we're voicing opinions on the internet about it. My god it's the second coming of Hitler's Germany. What horse****.

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1 hour ago, The Silver Thong said:

We have been turning the other cheak  for years man, the left deffends every terrorist attack and even rape. The inclusion of Sharia law  for gods sake. What has happened to the left. 

Oh dear I have trouble expressing how untrue and stupid that is.  The "left" (whatever that is) is determined to avoid hate of a whole class of people based on the horrors committed by a few.  IT DOES NOT defend these acts at all.

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8 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Oh dear I have trouble expressing how untrue and stupid that is.  The "left" (whatever that is) is determined to avoid hate of a whole class of people based on the horrors committed by a few.  IT DOES NOT defend these acts at all.

look up Antifa, thats the left in the west today.

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Just now, The Silver Thong said:

look up Antifa, thats the left in the west today.

Apparently Antifa doesn't exist in his eyes...

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Just now, Uncle Sam said:

Apparently Antifa doesn't exist in his eyes...

In all honesty I don`t think Frank knows whats going on over here. The media won`t even say a jihadist commited a crime let alone say his religion so we don`t offend the offender.

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1 hour ago, Frank Merton said:

Oh dear I have trouble expressing how untrue and stupid that is.  The "left" (whatever that is) is determined to avoid hate of a whole class of people based on the horrors committed by a few.  IT DOES NOT defend these acts at all.

You just have trouble expressing reality.  You don't seem to understand that it is not the actions of a few but the ideology of the majority.  And of those not of the majority, their offspring often will follow that majority.  When it becomes personal, the Left will wake up and learn the necessity of hating a whole class.  Although, I do think that "hate" is too strong of a word to use.  It suffices here.

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13 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

You just have trouble expressing reality.  You don't seem to understand that it is not the actions of a few but the ideology of the majority.  And of those not of the majority, their offspring often will follow that majority.  When it becomes personal, the Left will wake up and learn the necessity of hating a whole class.  Although, I do think that "hate" is too strong of a word to use.  It suffices here.

I don't hate a class, I just dislike their actions. If majority were kind and gentle people, who actually make logical arguments for the benefit of mankind, then yeah I would take up with them.

Edited by Uncle Sam
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1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

You just have trouble expressing reality.  You don't seem to understand that it is not the actions of a few but the ideology of the majority.  And of those not of the majority, their offspring often will follow that majority.  When it becomes personal, the Left will wake up and learn the necessity of hating a whole class.  Although, I do think that "hate" is too strong of a word to use.  It suffices here.

No I guess you are just out of touch with reality.  The ideology of the majority is basically peaceful and friendly -- it's like the many loving Christians getting blamed for the few hateful Christians who have their Bible versus full of hate that they love to quote.

Edited by Frank Merton
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1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

You just have trouble expressing reality.  You don't seem to understand that it is not the actions of a few but the ideology of the majority.  And of those not of the majority, their offspring often will follow that majority.  When it becomes personal, the Left will wake up and learn the necessity of hating a whole class.  Although, I do think that "hate" is too strong of a word to use.  It suffices here.

Hmm my message disappeared.  What you don't understand is that the hate you imagine is not part of Muslim ideology any more than it is part of Christianity.  There are hateful members of both groups, and both groups have passages in their holy books that are hateful.  You are branding an entire class by the behavior of its most hateful members.  That is a human enough reaction, but neither Christian nor Muslim nor compassionate nor loving nor right.

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3 hours ago, F3SS said:

Oh wait, we're voicing opinions on the internet about it. My god it's the second coming of Hitler's Germany. What horseshlt.

Well yes, of course.  Trump is way too old to try to be another Hitler and we would hope America would resist more than the Germans.  It's good however to keep in mind the possibilities and remember that history does sometimes repeat.  The campaign rallies and the demagoguery and attitudes seem much the same.

Edited by Frank Merton
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This is interesting, related to this;

 Libya has been a strong partner in the war against terrorism and cooperation in liaison channels is excellent…Muammar al-Qadhafi’s criticism of Saudi Arabia for perceived support of Wahabi extremism, a source of continuing Libya-Saudi tension, reflects broader Libyan concern about the threat of extremism. Worried that fighters returning from Afghanistan and Iraq could destabilize the regime, the [government of Libya] has aggressively pursued operations to disrupt foreign fighter flows, including more stringent monitoring of air/land ports of entry, and blunt the ideological appeal of radical Islam.

~ State Department Foreign Service Officer Christopher Stevens, 2008 (courtesy of Wikileaks). So obviously Gadaffi had to be butchered to death and his vile regime replaced by a peaceful, thriving democracy, didn't it! 

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And “an organization [the LIFG].has laid down sleeper cells in North Africa called the Al Qaeda organization in North Africa.” ~ M. Gadaffi or Qaddafi to Tony Blair. LIFG ("Libyan Islamic Fighting Group") is the organisation that Salman Abedi's father went to Libya to join in the Heroic Struggle for Freedom in 2011.

Ghaddafi’s son, Saif, warned that overthrowing Libya would make the country “the Somalia of North Africa, of the Mediterranean” and “You will see millions of illegal immigrants. The terror will be next door.”

So obviously the West's endless dumbassed military interventions in every country whose leader that it labels as a Foul Tyrant has in no conceivable way anything to do with the spread of terrorism whatsoever, doesn't it!! 

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker
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And this too.

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We’re crying over the horror in Manchester today because yesterday Hillary Clinton was laughing about the horror she inflicted on Libya –including the killing of Ghaddafi by those protected Salafist proxies who sodomized him with a bayonet: “We came. We saw. He died. [big smile, joyous laughter]” Yes, exactly that.

From this article here, which obviously everyone will ignore.because it's obviously Putin's lies. http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/29/no-laughing-matter-the-manchester-bomber-is-the-spawn-of-hillary-and-baracks-excellent-libyan-adventure/

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker
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It was always clear when they went into knock out Saddam that it would destabilise the region. It didn't come as a surprise when that actually happened. Then to do it again in Libya and expect a different result, and then again in Syria...maybe somebody should have wondered all those years ago "WHY do these countries have the sort of tyrant quite prepared to use chemical weapons against there own people?"  and maybe the answer we would have found is "Because thats the sort of leader they need".

 

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7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

No I guess you are just out of touch with reality.  The ideology of the majority is basically peaceful and friendly -- it's like the many loving Christians getting blamed for the few hateful Christians who have their Bible versus full of hate that they love to quote.

 

7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Hmm my message disappeared.  What you don't understand is that the hate you imagine is not part of Muslim ideology any more than it is part of Christianity.  There are hateful members of both groups, and both groups have passages in their holy books that are hateful.  You are branding an entire class by the behavior of its most hateful members.  That is a human enough reaction, but neither Christian nor Muslim nor compassionate nor loving nor right.

I’m not sure you understand the messaging or either text.  One explains who Christ is and the other is a strict list of commands to follow.  You are operating from two incorrect assumptions.  One, the ideology of Islam is not peaceful toward the non-believer.  Two, even though both religions are considered Abrahamic in origin, they are no where similar.  There really isn't a concept of “hateful” in either book.  It is considered justification or righteousness.  The main difference between the two is that one requires the complete submission to the will of Allah and the other is to love one another as yourself.  Those two concepts are diametrically opposed.

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