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nephili

Is "The Devil" necessary?

421 posts in this topic

The devil is just an excuse for a person's evil intent, I personally don't blame demons or satan for a person's evil actions on others. Would you think Adolf Hitler was under Satan for committing genocide in the Holocaust? or Satan made Charles Manson, who was a cult leader commanding his members to conduct murders? I say it's the very people who did wrong, not a mythological being in organized religions. The perpetrator can say "the devil made me do it" or "I was under Satan's control", I'm not convinced...the person is responsible for their actions and they must deal with the consequences.

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11 hours ago, Khanivore said:

Simple When you understand plate tectonics you know what causes earthquakes and volcanoes When you know this you don't need to believe that they are caused by angry gods ,and would be foolish/illogical to do so.  you are correct true knowldge only comes form personal experience . However  yes i do trust the facts presented by science due to the nature of the scientific process used to verify those facts.

 You mention plate tectonics again, these are simply theories and I understand how science today has evolved to accept theories as facts and untested theories too. Your missing the point, most of the science you believe in today in purely theoretical in nature dressed up in mathematical garb. My point is that what you trust as facts from scientists and their books is based in blind faith in the hope they know what they are doing, but they do not pass the scientific method. That's my point most of what you believe is beyond that the standard you assume gives you facts. Science in its nature does not provide facts, it's an inductive method capable only of giving the best probability not 100% facts. 

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Unfortunately you are right.  There are many ignorant and uneducated people in the world. However most of them have access to google and so can always FIND knowledge they never learned in school; like the fact that earthquakes and volcanoes are NOT caused by angry gods but by natural forces in the earth's crust.

Yes I agree, but a theist is not deterred by that, they can claim God uses these mechanisms to cause these catastrophes, then what? As for the earth's crust, we have never been through it, it's all speculation, good speculation but not Scientifically or empirically proven because it's not gone through the scientific method nor can it actually be proven by it yet. So my point being you hold blind faith the science clergy and the theist in his God. 

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The bible has much truth and wisdom. However creationism is a belief which can only be held onto, by disregarding science.  That is dangerous but, to some people, god and the bible offer much more than science does and so the y are prepared to run the risk. .

Im not touting creationism but I disagree, science is not the monopoly of atheists nor are its origin with them. Science started with religion and real science and religion are compatible, but only in the west are they separated due to the historical baggage of the church and its stance, deeply ingrained in to the psyche. 

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Science explains one form of, " Why we are here". The other is a metaphysical question and thus only answerable through our own minds. The reason YOU exist might be very different to the reason why I exist, for example, but we are both here due to the same natural process of time and energy.  We only ask the question why because of the nature of human cognition and slef aware consciousness

Our nature dictates we seek a purpose, you do it everyday in life. Universal purpose not individual purpose. For example what purpose does the sun have for you, is it different to mine? We know what the suns purpose is and it's a universal in the sand way we have purpose too, just like everything else in the universe has its unique role and purpose. For example, your socks have a purpose, if you put them on your hands, head they purpose changed? No! They purpose is to protect your feet etc, so we give more value to inanimate objects by knowing their purpose but when it comes to us, self reflection, ah we have no need for purpose, valuing inanimate objects over ourselves. 

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We dont like to be told, " Well actually there is NO specific reason. .We were not put here for any specific reason or purpose.  we are not the product of something else's mind and hands. We are simply the product of a long period of evolution and change which brought us to the point we are today" Once this is realised we can then say, "ok then I will make a purpose  for myself and my life. I will make a difference.  I will create and build,   improve and educate, so that the world is a better place for me having lived ".  

You see the above makes no sense. It's a standard atheist cop out, we do not need a purpose etc. I asked why does the universe exist at all. Your answer in affect is," well it just is " your science explains how the universe works not why it exists at all or why we do. To say we just do get on with it is a cop out. It does not sit well with human nature to have the answer it just is, that does not suffice for curios, intelligent, self aware specie. Yet is not ironic for someone who accepts science, requires answers for how things work, but use cop excuses when asked well why we exist at all? Ah well we just do, like as though that is a fulfilling satisfying answer, you know it's not! 

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No there are no concepts beyond the capacity of the human mind  Give me any that you think is  and i will explain it to you. :)  There are two forms of physical reality; that which exists and is held in common outside a human mind, and that which exists and is held singularly within a human mind. 

There are concepts beyond human capacity. The metaphysical can only be reasoned for because it's beyond it physical reality and everything we perceive and experience. God is one, that's why when you picture a God is either a man God or associated to something within our reality we can relate to, but God as metaphysical reality is beyond all that. 

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Thoughts  emotions memories  dreams  etc are all physical things (biophysical and constructed form matter and energy)  which can be measured, seen  copied etc using sufficient technology.  The nature of mind consciousness and thought even what we think of as the human soul,  can not only be understood but is capable of being replicated artificially,. and will be by humans, within the next hundred years or two.  

The above statement says it all. First of all you equate emotions, feelings, memories down to electrical impulses in the brain, therefore they have no real intrinsic meaning to them. When you tell your loved ones that you love them, it's meaningless and ephemeral in nature then is it or not? So what about the senses that you use to understand the physical world around you, they all take place in the brain, you don't see with you eyes or listen with your ears, it's all inside the brain, which itself is isolated from the external world, light, sound, touch, taste etc, total isolation yet it tells what you perceive of you external world. That begs the question what is the true nature of our external reality, if it's all an occurring in the brain? In addition then, you cannot prove anything about the external world using the scientific method, because reality is in side your head. So how do you reconcile that with your physical reality which you believe is the sum of all reality. Then mention consciousness like as though we know what it is, if your reality is being perceived in isolation to the external world, what is the audience of that perception in your brain or head if not a conscious or soul? You can't have it both ways, if all your emotions, memories etc are a product of electrical impulses in the brain, then so is your physical reality, so how real are your emotions and your the physical world. Your point raises more questions than answers and those questions become metaphysical in nature. 

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Tell me.  Why is it that you think that things like yourself, or the universe, need a purpose to exist.  What is purpose but a word/conceptual abstract construct, created by humans to help them understand and define their existence.  We invented the idea of purpose to help us come to terms with our existence.

What's the alternative, according to you, we are just hear, deal with it, we don't need know why, just need to know how things work. Hmm not very scientific or inquisitive in nature, which doesn't suffice as an answer to most humans, unless you use it as a cop out to reconcile your belief system which is scientism and if answers like, "well it just is" are sufficient for shallow minds as an explanation. Like I said before everything around you has its purpose, but we don't? How does that work and how do you reconcile it? 

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It also has a functional meaning which we imbue ourselves with. ie a sense of purpose which we construct for ourselves,  drives us to achieve.It is thus an evolved cognitive function whose purpose is to motivate, and drive us to do more than just survive.   

There is no metaphysical  other than things like philosophical questions (  ie there is nothing which is physically  super natural) There are   only physical things, as yet beyond the reach of our knowledge and technologies 

You conflate the two, purpose self imbued to drive some one to achieve a certain goal is different to a universal purpose. Two different things. You claim its a result of cognative evolution, have you ever observed this evolutionary process, then repeated, tested and verified it, you know via the scientific method? Dint think so, it's theory which can not substantiated by the very method you worship, so it's blind faith. You claim there is no metaphysical, yet I bet you believe you multiverse etc, they are metaphysical concepts ie beyond our physical reality. Then you claim there is only the physical reality. If that's the case, like I said before how do you reconcile the fact your physical reality is a result of electrical impulses in the brain the same equivocation to your emotions, memories etc being a result of same process? You can't even verify empirically and scientifically your claims about the physical reality. 

Hey dont feel bad, but i've lived with a wife for 40 years who holds similar beliefs and opinions to you.

 I respectfully disagree with her and thus i do the same with you  I m well used t arguing these  points but don't find it necessary.  people believe what they need to believe, in order to survive happily. And if you don't accept or believe in science and its knowledge then we cannot have any rational debate    It is true that i take science on faith but i do so because of the nature and construct of science and the effectiveness of its methodology to establish knowledge and truth  as an example  Plate tectonics is old knowledge. I;ve been teaching it  for over 40 years and is not theoretical or unproven at all. You can see it in action. 

 You are not happy or comfortable with the idea that the universe has no inherent meaning or purpose .

 I am.

 I create my purpose (with the mentoring and guidance of "god" i n my case but this is not essential. )  and live by that This keeps me happy.

To take one point.

The sun has no inherent purpose.  it was not designed to provide life for us, rather we evolved in response to the particular nature of our local sun.  

. It is just a natural element of the universe  However, it serves different purposes to differing people.   For some it is the source of a golden tan For others a source of solar energy  

Because of the natural integration all elements in an evolved environment, then, of course, humans respond to and require the sun for life We evolved as we did  due to the  nature of the local sun. Had it been a different form of sun we would have evolved differently   However there are animals which do not need the sun  and live from geothermal energy, deep below the ocean.  

There IS no universal purpose  That is a human construct driven by our need to attribute design and purpose to make us feel more comfortable . Chaos and uncertainty present clear and present danger to the human mind, due to our need to plan and strategise to optimise our survival. Thus we construct purposes even when they do not exist, so we can respond with planned responses.  Eg if lightning is a natural force then we are powerless to protect ourselves unti we develop the science ot do so .

BUT if we believe it is a weapon of the gods, then we can believe we have to power to protect ourselves by prayer or sacrifice or appeal to the god responsible  Using such belief we can move forward in the faith that lightning will nOT strike us (and we are usually correct thus reinforcing our belief in the efficacy of prayer or sacrifice)  

 Ps i could discuss the nature of reality versus human perception of reality with you for hours but i think it would be pointless.

Humans have the abilty to perceive, consciously, and with intelligent self awareness, their environments, both internal and externa. Thus we consciously shape and choose the reality we live in.

BUT the physical external world has its own existence and reality  underlying our perception of it.

As for love; in humans love is a learned self aware intellectual construct combining many idealised abstract concepts of faith, honour, duty, loyalty  romance,  sometimes  sexual attraction etc.  

 It is arguably the most powerful intellectual construct the human mind creates  It has kept me in love with, and faithful to my wife for half a century, not just in body but in mind.   

Edited by Mr Walker

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On 7/19/2017 at 10:14 PM, ChaosRose said:

For instance, I just can't believe that sage-smudging is gonna do anything other than drive me from my own home. That stuff reeks. 

Yeah I've never found sage smudging to be effective.  Has anyone actually seen it work?  Maybe it has a placebo effect??

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Just now, Spirit Ninja said:

Yeah I've never found sage smudging to be effective.  Has anyone actually seen it work?  Maybe it has a placebo effect??

Someone once posted about a guaranteed banishing. I can't remember the entirety of it, but it included burning a pound of sage and a pound of manure. It don't think anything or anyone would be able to stand the place after that. 

Basically, banishment works because it works on the psyche. And it isn't so much a placebo effect unless there isn't actual phenomena going on. 

Most people think it's either ghosts/entities, or it's just hallucination/hypnagogia, etc. I'm one of those people in between. Some people can produce actual phenomena that can be observed by themselves and others around them. It takes strong belief. Anyway, you can oust it by taking back the reins to the subconscious. Various forms of banishment allow people to basically give their psyche an adjustment. It can take time, but almost every belief system has something that can work. It gets people back in balance, and then their inner demons (which have become nuisance outer demons) go poof. They weren't "real" in the same sense as we think of it. They're just phantoms from the depths of the psyche. 

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On 5-6-2017 at 8:31 AM, nephili said:

It seems that most religions and especially certain fundamental branches of the large religions believe in this evil being and his influence. The serpent in the garden, "The Fallen one", Lucifer, Loki, Beelzebub, Shaitan, Mara, Iblis... There is almost as many names for this being than for "God".

I think it is one thing to believe in an all knowing architect or creator, but to believe an all knowing creator creating his own opponent just seems irrational and impossible at best. And to believe it so that it is in almost all religions. Do you believe that evil must exist to highlight the good? Why does the evil being fit in so well in our myths and legends?

Why has religion been so dependent on this evil being? Was it a safe guard so it could always be said "the devil made me do it"? Was it so we could blame death on something other than "God"? I'm open to any opinions.

If there was no evil than would we know good? If there was no dark would we know light?

You say an all knowing creating his own opponent is irrational and impossible at best. Who says that creator (assume for the sake of argument there is such a thing) had any choice in the matter or that he even created him. Maybe they are one and the same being because otherwise he cant determine that he would do good since there was no evil or bad doing. One cant exist without the other. If there was no evil or bad we could not define something as good just as we could not say there is light if there was no presence of dark or we could not determine something as positive due to the lack off something determined negative.

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23 hours ago, Blaid Drwg said:

If there was no evil than would we know good? If there was no dark would we know light?

That is a very simplistic view. Answering complex questions with cliche questions.

 

23 hours ago, Blaid Drwg said:

One cant exist without the other.

Really. Why?

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4 hours ago, nephili said:

Really. Why?

because we could not define them as they where without and oposite. If everything for instance would be positive always and everytime we would have no negative and would have found it normal and thus would not be aknowledged and named as positive and negative.

Edited by Blaid Drwg

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On 6/4/2017 at 11:31 PM, nephili said:

It seems that most religions and especially certain fundamental branches of the large religions believe in this evil being and his influence. The serpent in the garden, "The Fallen one", Lucifer, Loki, Beelzebub, Shaitan, Mara, Iblis... There is almost as many names for this being than for "God".

I think it is one thing to believe in an all knowing architect or creator, but to believe an all knowing creator creating his own opponent just seems irrational and impossible at best. And to believe it so that it is in almost all religions. Do you believe that evil must exist to highlight the good? Why does the evil being fit in so well in our myths and legends?

Why has religion been so dependent on this evil being? Was it a safe guard so it could always be said "the devil made me do it"? Was it so we could blame death on something other than "God"? I'm open to any opinions.

In my opinion this is a theological nightmare for the Christian religion.  But since I've already hashed this thing out for myself and on another forum so many times, I'm kindof over it now.  The primary theological problem that it presents.....at least considering the majority of Christian viewpoints on the issue, is that it really eliminates God from being "omni."  Of course, most Christian people don't seem to see this; but then again - they also don't seem to have a problem with that monstrosity piece known as the Book of Job.  

The second and very large theological problem it presents IMHO - is that it makes God intentionally cruel and extreme.  I say that, because if a being of immense power; second only to God himself is able to run amok, unchecked, unfettered and with complete abandon all over this planet with miserable little beings such as ourselves as helpless fodder - then it pretty much throws the idea of "Loving God" ie "Father" right out the window. 

There is no decent parent on the planet that would willingly leave their children in the care of a twisted psychopathic killer knowing the nature of the individual and the outcome of such a circumstance.  It would be like catching a wild coyote and putting it in the chicken coop - then expecting those good-natured chicken to not get mutilated.  

 

 

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On 18/07/2017 at 2:04 AM, ChaosRose said:

We aren't all men. 

I never understood the need to make God into an old man who lives in the sky. It seems like a very limited perspective.

I agree

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is the devil necessary. NO he is not. God, if it exists, is sadistic enough, to be both sides of the same coin. there may be an afterlife form of existence but I think that both god and the devil are man's creation's not the other way around.  if I am wrong then someone has a h--- of a lot of explaining to do.

 

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On 6/5/2017 at 2:31 AM, nephili said:

It seems that most religions and especially certain fundamental branches of the large religions believe in this evil being and his influence. The serpent in the garden, "The Fallen one", Lucifer, Loki, Beelzebub, Shaitan, Mara, Iblis... There is almost as many names for this being than for "God".

I think it is one thing to believe in an all knowing architect or creator, but to believe an all knowing creator creating his own opponent just seems irrational and impossible at best. And to believe it so that it is in almost all religions. Do you believe that evil must exist to highlight the good? Why does the evil being fit in so well in our myths and legends?

Why has religion been so dependent on this evil being? Was it a safe guard so it could always be said "the devil made me do it"? Was it so we could blame death on something other than "God"? I'm open to any opinions.


As far as Christianity is concerned...

Lucifer was a high-ranking angel in heaven.  Angels are created beings.  Lucifer was a created being.  All beings created by God are given free will.  To find the answers to your questions, you need to look at Bible verse. 

 

Lucifer's Description

Ezekiel 28:12-15 - “You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings.  On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you."

 

Lucifer's Pridefulness - Lucifer sought to raise himself above God.

Isaiah 14:13-15 - "You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit."

 

A Third of the Stars - Lucifer convinced a third of the angels of heaven to join him, all of whom had free will.

Revelation 12:4 - "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth." (referring to the dragon aka Lucifer)

 

A Fight in Heaven, Lucifer and  Angels Cast Out

Revelation 12:7-12 - "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Lucifer was given the name Satan (deceiver).

 

The Great Controversy

At the heart of the controversy between Lucifer and God was the question of God's character.  Lucifer felt he should be equal to or above God and it was his pridefulness that was his downfall.  He deceived a third of the angels in heaven to follow him.  This is where the name Satan comes from.  Satan means deceiver.

What was God to do when His character was in question?  He could've snapped His fingers and destroyed Satan and the fallen angels, which would've immediately put doubt and question into the minds of His angels and other created beings.

God chose instead to prove His character over time, compared to Satan's character.  God banished Satan to earth and allowed Him free reign to deceive man into sinning.  It's unfortunate that man was caught in between the controversy between God and Satan, but God has gone out of His way to ensure our salvation, despite the sin that Satan introduced.

Man became cursed.  The wages of sin is death, meaning we all die because of the consequences of sin.

It's evident that man can't begin to understand the ramifications of sin.  What it takes to cleanse sin.  What it takes to have righteousness and holiness without sin.  These are things beyond our comprehension.  What we do know is that sin has been a scourge on humanity.  Evil so heinous that men can't comprehend its depths.  At the heart of this is satanic influence, whispering in our ears.  As if the curse of a sinful nature isn't bad enough, we have beings working day and night to ensure we turn away from God and embrace sin.

In the days of Noah, it got so bad that men could only think evil continually (Genesis 6:5).  God gave man 120 years to repent.  All they had to do was get on the boat, but men scoffed and laughed.  In the end they perished.  God started over with Noah and his family.

Satan's role has never changed.  Evil abounds on this earth. 

Meanwhile, throughout history, God's love and desire to cleanse sin from man, so that he can have salvation, has been ongoing.  God even sent His son to die for our sins (again, something we can't completely comprehend; cleansing sin).  Jesus came as a lamb, but will come back as a lion.

At the end of time, the character of Satan and the character of God will have been proven completely.  God will be justified in destroying the wicked who were given ample time to turn from their wicked ways, but only think of evil continuously. 

Those who believe in God and obey Him will be saved.  That's a promise we can all bank on.

Satan (Lucifer) is worshiped by men who want power and knowledge and want earthly things.  God is worshiped by men who seek righteousness and redemption from a sinful world. 

Even if you don't believe Satan exists, you can't ignore the fact that Satan is worshiped by people who do vile things and blaspheme God.  Why is that?  Are Satan worshipers and God worshipers all a bunch of fruitcakes who believe in fairy tales?  Or is the great controversy playing out before our eyes?  The truth is in the Bible, you just have to look.

Lastly, this conflict is much bigger than us.  How can man possibly grasp the totality of it all?  Yet, God is giving us a free pass, because it wasn't our fault, it was Satan's fault.  There is evidence throughout the Bible that shows God wants to save as many of us as He can, before time runs out.  Again, it's all about free will given to man.  God has ensured salvation, we just have to take it. 

I don't understand the arrogance of men who judge God (their creator) as sadistic and cruel, when if you take the Bible message as a whole (and read it and understand it), nothing could be further from the truth.

Man has such free will that He can choose to scoff and laugh.  Time will show the truth.  Ask yourself if you want to be on the wrong side of God (again). 

Edited by FrethKindheart
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On 5 October 2017 at 10:16 PM, Blaid Drwg said:

because we could not define them as they where without and oposite. If everything for instance would be positive always and everytime we would have no negative and would have found it normal and thus would not be aknowledged and named as positive and negative.

Personally I am not 100% convinced by this argument. To me it seems like an excuse to allow evil into our hearts and mind, into the world, because somehow its necessary? Having said that, when negativity does show-up, we can make the best of it - "be a light unto the darkness."

And yes, perhaps if there were only good vibes and positive reactions then yes this would become the new normal, but what is so bad about that?

The thing is, we all know when something is good because we feel that goodness within our hearts. God is love. Demonstrating that love and feeling that love in return is feeling and demonstrating the Godliness within.

I suppose it boils down to the age old question of dualism and transcendence, and how exactly can we transcend to the Ultimate Truth?

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5 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:


As far as Christianity is concerned...

Lucifer was a high-ranking angel in heaven.  Angels are created beings.  Lucifer was a created being.  All beings created by God are given free will.  To find the answers to your questions, you need to look at Bible verse. 

Not once is Satan called Lucifer. Even your Bible quotes show that.

 

5 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

Even if you don't believe Satan exists, you can't ignore the fact that Satan is worshiped by people who do vile things and blaspheme God.  Why is that?  Are Satan worshipers and God worshipers all a bunch of fruitcakes who believe in fairy tales?  Or is the great controversy playing out before our eyes?  The truth is in the Bible, you just have to look.

But that's not a fact is it? That's something you made up. People do vile things, some do it FOR God.

Fiction is also in the Bible.

 

5 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

Lastly, this conflict is much bigger than us.  How can man possibly grasp the totality of it all?  Yet, God is giving us a free pass, because it wasn't our fault, it was Satan's fault.  There is evidence throughout the Bible that shows God wants to save as many of us as He can, before time runs out.  Again, it's all about free will given to man.  God has ensured salvation, we just have to take it. 

I don't understand the arrogance of men who judge God (their creator) as sadistic and cruel, when if you take the Bible message as a whole (and read it and understand it), nothing could be further from the truth.

Man has such free will that He can choose to scoff and laugh.  Time will show the truth.  Ask yourself if you want to be on the wrong side of God (again). 

You don't understand because you don't want to. You accept your dogma without question, that is your reality. Outside of the dogma God isn't what his authors claimed him to be; with events that never happened, and a very human deity that evolved over time.

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Yes, Satan / the Devil / the Adversary is important.   To make us question our decisions, and ensure we have thought them through properly, and have fully considered other options.  It's necessary for free will.   The alternative is absolute obedience and slavery to a power-crazed dictator.  Bit like the bloke in the Old Testament ;) And no-one wants that, do they?  :o

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20 minutes ago, Essan said:

Yes, Satan / the Devil / the Adversary is important.   To make us question our decisions, and ensure we have thought them through properly, and have fully considered other options.  It's necessary for free will.   The alternative is absolute obedience and slavery to a power-crazed dictator.  Bit like the bloke in the Old Testament ;) And no-one wants that, do they?  :o

I understand this very well, but I am trying to think this through to its natural conclusion.

For example, what happens once we have awakened to our true Gnostic Nature, for want of a better term. Or we could call it the Christ Conscousness or Buddha Nature amongst other things. Anyway, my point is, once we have awakened to our Divinity and are demonstrating and expressing our Perfected Beingness, what happens then? And what happens once everybody has woken-up? 

The Demiurge will no longer have a role to play and may as well come-on Home with the rest of us.

You say that the alternative is absolute obedience and slavery, but was Christ a slave? Buddha may have been obedient to the Laws of Nature but is that a bad thing? 

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On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 4:37 AM, Rlyeh said:

Not once is Satan called Lucifer. Even your Bible quotes show that.

I specifically left off this verse from my post above (which quotes Isaiah 14:13-15), but here it is, the preceding verse.  It's clear that Lucifer is Satan.  Even Bible scholars agree with that basic concept.

Isaiah 14:12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

As for your other replies... I'm not the one you have to convince.  When judgement comes around, you'll be answering to God and Jesus.  Somehow I don't think you're going to win that argument.

The Bible is the only truth and God is love.  Repent and save yourself before it's too late.

Edited by FrethKindheart

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6 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

I specifically left off this verse from my post above (which quotes Isaiah 14:13-15), but here it is, the preceding verse.  It's clear that Lucifer is Satan.  Even Bible scholars agree with that basic concept.

Isaiah 14:12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

As for your other replies... I'm not the one you have to convince.  When judgement comes around, you'll be answering to God and Jesus.  Somehow I don't think you're going to win that argument.

The Bible is the only truth and God is love.  Repent and save yourself before it's too late.

The Bible is not the only truth.

You say God is love, so do you believe there is there no other book or person outside of Christianity who can personify a true love of God, of Life, of Humanity???  Can you really say that? What you are saying is that only Christians can love and only Christians can feel love - this is patently untrue. And not only untrue, but unhelpful too. In my humble opinion you might wish to practice some of that Love that you believe in and open your mind to other expressions of God/Life/Love. 

You are a little bit confused my friend.

Peace.

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5 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The Bible is not the only truth.

You say God is love, so do you believe there is there no other book or person outside of Christianity who can personify a true love of God, of Life, of Humanity???  Can you really say that? What you are saying is that only Christians can love and only Christians can feel love - this is patently untrue. And not only untrue, but unhelpful too. In my humble opinion you might wish to practice some of that Love that you believe in and open your mind to other expressions of God/Life/Love. 

You are a little bit confused my friend.

Peace.

I mention love in my posts two times.  Both times I'm referring to God's love.  The subject matter is "Is the devil necessary?"  My posts answer that question from a Christian perspective.  The history and proof of the existence of Satan is in the Bible, so it only makes sense that the Bible is used to answer the question.

As for love existing in the world without God or Christianity, of course it exists, because we are created beings in God's image; God is love, so it only makes sense that we are love as well, even if we deny God.  So yes, I agree, love exists in this world.  Does it overshadow evil and hate?  Not by a long shot.  Why is that?  Could it be sin?  Could Satan have a hand in it?  Yes, I believe so. 

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about "only Christians can love and only Christians can feel love".  I stressed the importance of recognizing that the existence of Lucifer/Satan is a reality and necessary, because of the conflict between God and Satan.  The conflict is about good versus evil, love versus hate.  It's not about marginalizing love at all, but expanding it; overcoming evil and sin through love and ultimately through God, our creator, who seeks to save us all from sin (of which Satan is the origin).

In other words, you missed the point entirely, which is love.

Allow me to address "the Bible is not the only truth".  Jesus was the word of God made flesh. John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  John 8:31-32 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  And so, the truth for a Christian is the Bible, the word of God.

You don't have to agree with my point of view or the Bible.  Post your own truth.  That's what a forum is for, sharing points of view.

Edited by FrethKindheart

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7 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

I mention love in my posts two times.  Both times I'm referring to God's love.  The subject matter is "Is the devil necessary?"  My posts answer that question from a Christian perspective.  The history and proof of the existence of Satan is in the Bible, so it only makes sense that the Bible is used to answer the question.

As for love existing in the world without God or Christianity, of course it exists, because we are created beings in God's image; God is love, so it only makes sense that we are love as well, even if we deny God.  So yes, I agree, love exists in this world.  Does it overshadow evil and hate?  Not by a long shot.  Why is that?  Could it be sin?  Could Satan have a hand in it?  Yes, I believe so. 

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about "only Christians can love and only Christians can feel love".  I stressed the importance of recognizing that the existence of Lucifer/Satan is a reality and necessary, because of the conflict between God and Satan.  The conflict is about good versus evil, love versus hate.  It's not about marginalizing love at all, but expanding it; overcoming evil and sin through love and ultimately through God, our creator, who seeks to save us all from sin (of which Satan is the origin).

In other words, you missed the point entirely, which is love.

Allow me to address "the Bible is not the only truth".  Jesus was the word of God made flesh. John 14:6 “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  John 8:31-32 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  And so, the truth for a Christian is the Bible, the word of God.

You don't have to agree with my point of view or the Bible.  Post your own truth.  That's what a forum is for, sharing points of view.

Claiming that "the Bible is the only truth" is incorrect in any context. There are as many ways to God as there are people. One dogmatic size cannot fit all. In fact the Church dumbed down early Christianity. Before the orthodox, Roman Church, Christians would strive to know God, experiencing God for themselves. The Church said, "You don't need to go to all that bother, just believe everything in the Bible literally, and do everything we say, on pain of death or excommunication and an eternity in hell.

Some love that is! Sounds more like blackmail and slavery to me.   

The Devil pops up in almost every religion ancient and modern in some guise or other. So the Bible doesn't even have the only truth in the context of this thread, or in life in general.

By the way, you can rest assured, I always post my truth, not an edited version written on a page, but from an experince of LIFE itself!

 

Edited by Crazy Horse

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20 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

I specifically left off this verse from my post above (which quotes Isaiah 14:13-15), but here it is, the preceding verse.  It's clear that Lucifer is Satan.  Even Bible scholars agree with that basic concept.

Isaiah 14:12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

 

 Any reputable seminary teaches that Isaiah is talking about the king of Babylon. Not Satan

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On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 2:00 PM, FrethKindheart said:

I specifically left off this verse from my post above (which quotes Isaiah 14:13-15), but here it is, the preceding verse.  It's clear that Lucifer is Satan.  Even Bible scholars agree with that basic concept.

Isaiah 14:12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!"

As for your other replies... I'm not the one you have to convince.  When judgement comes around, you'll be answering to God and Jesus.  Somehow I don't think you're going to win that argument.

The Bible is the only truth and God is love.  Repent and save yourself before it's too late.

Again no mention of Satan. However earlier verses do mention the king of Babylon. Apparently in Judaism the verse is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar II.

The Bible beginning with a fictional event isn't the best way to sell truth. I haven't done anything wrong to repent for. 

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