Is "The Devil" necessary?

[Mr Walker]

56 minutes ago, nephili said:

Isn't that akin to saying some people are schizophrenic and others are not.

Only if you believe that the only thing which causes a connection to a god is a mental illness .

The ability to believe in,  construct, and conceptualize, gods and thus to  enter into a mental relationship with them, is actually a normal evolved  cognitive property of the human mind . it is like idealising a person and falling in a constructed idealised form of love with that person. In a sense those who are totally disconnected from this abilty in their mind, are the ones with a mental   "illness".  If this abilty is an illness, then, statistically, about 90% of humans are ill, given that less than 10% profess to be atheists, when it comes to the existence of some spiritual higher power or presence  

[Mr Walker]

48 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I don't really see how one can "choose belief," either. One could want to believe, or not...or even not care one way or the other. One could wish that something exists, but not have the knowledge of whether or not it does. 

Psychologically it is understood that beliefs are constructs of the human mind.  We choose them, and build them, for many reasons, including to meet a need, or to make sense of something which is otherwise inexplicable

 Sometimes we accept the beliefs of others, especially if they also meet our own needs, but we also adapt and evolve other beliefs to suit our needs/purposes, and even construct entirely new individual ones.

 The choice may be in part subconscious but can also be identified if you think about it consciously,  and look at how a belief meets your own needs.  

[GoldenWolf]

18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Derailment? CNN insists that Donald Trump IS ---- the devil.

 

 

Trump's just a medium.

[Mr Walker]

48 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

The Golden Rule is the thing I think has the best chance of being divinely inspired. Now, I could tell myself that it's really God speaking to me and causing me to think that. But then I'd have to wonder how other people can read the same text and not get the same thing out of it. 

Why did Hitler read it and think he was following God by killing Jews? Wouldn't God have "spoken" to him and set him straight? 

So it must be that we get out of the texts what we want to hear. If that's the case, then where is God in all of this? 

No one reads a text and gets exactly the same thing from it, because everyone approaches texts and situations bringing an entire individual world view, unique to them, to the encounter.  The words of god can be found in the accounts of other people, but god itself  can only be encountered in your mind.  if you encountered a  god and wrote about it the next reader would only have your perception of that   god not their own.   

[GlitterRose]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Only if you believe that the only thing which causes a connection to a god is a mental illness .

The ability to believe in,  construct, and conceptualize, gods and thus to  enter into a mental relationship with them, is actually a normal evolved  cognitive property of the human mind . it is like idealising a person and falling in a constructed idealised form of love with that person. In a sense those who are totally disconnected from this abilty in their mind, are the ones with a mental   "illness".  If this abilty is an illness, then, statistically, about 90% of humans are ill, given that less than 10% profess to be atheists, when it comes to the existence of some spiritual higher power or presence  

This is not the first place I've heard about the falling in love bit. That said, you have to think you know traits about a person to fall in love with them. To fall in love with the idea of God, you have to think you know something about God. I could feel that I want to know something about God, if there is one. But I may be skeptical about how insightful religious texts are on the subject, given some of the things I've encountered in them. 

[Mr Walker]

40 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

But yeah, I've never been one of those people who could just be like...from this moment on, I believe in mermaids. Just because I want to. 

Anyone can, but most need a good or logical reason to.  You just have to train your mind and build a construct of belief about mermaids, with a logical supporting argument for why you believe.

 of course its hard to believe in things you know are not real, but easy to believe in things which could be real but are not known to be . 

[Mr Walker]

33 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Yeah, the idea that skin color has something to do with superiority...I don't know why anyone thinks enlightened beings would believe this.

It takes some enlightenment to come in out of the sun?  

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Psychologically it is understood that beliefs are constructs of the human mind.  We choose them, and build them, for many reasons, including to meet a need, or to make sense of something which is otherwise inexplicable

 Sometimes we accept the beliefs of others, especially if they also meet our own needs, but we also adapt and evolve other beliefs to suit our needs/purposes, and even construct entirely new individual ones.

 The choice may be in part subconscious but can also be identified if you think about it consciously,  and look at how a belief meets your own needs.  

But do we really choose them? 

I can't just choose to believe in the Loch Ness monster, as cool as I think it would be. I'd have to have some kind of evidence that there is such a thing. Otherwise, everything that goes on in my head about it would just be wishful thinking, if I was being honest with myself.

[Mr Walker]

19 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I already stated some of the other options. You just denied that they were options. 

Belief, disbelief, neither belief nor disbelief.  When confronted by a question about an unknown,  what other options exist?  None have been discovered in theology or philosophy. 

[GlitterRose]

Just now, Mr Walker said:

Belief, disbelief, neither belief nor disbelief.  When confronted by a question about an unknown,  what other options exist?  None have been discovered in theology or philosophy. 

I guess if you'd peg me on the continuum, I'd be more of a soft agnostic.But it's not really a conscious decision. It's just where I am. 

 

[GlitterRose]

I don't know how people muster so much certainty about something so uncertain.

[GlitterRose]

Even when I have weird personal experiences...and I have (why else would I be here)...I always question them. Because I know the tendency that people have to delude themselves. 

[back to earth]

51 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

But yeah, I've never been one of those people who could just be like...from this moment on, I believe in mermaids. Just because I want to.   

Foe me, it all depends on a non-literal interpretation; 

Eg, when I tell the story , to some,  and I say  'life came to earth because a big snake in the milky way spat water down to earth' , they spark up and say ' Some scientists say life may arrived here from a comet strike .'

And as far as all of 'reality' being a dream (of the earth snake that took the water underground )  , a  Buddhist Monk liked that one . 

- and others spark up , re the 'took the water underground and 'made it deep'  think of 'The Great Artesian Basin ' 

 

 

 

 

 

[back to earth]

51 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

 

Now they   'red'     

[GlitterRose]

It's funny because you can find wisdom is the oddest places, and often it's not in validation of your beliefs, but in shattering your assumptions. 

It can happen. It happened to me.

Sometimes, it doesn't give you answers. You just realize that you have more questions. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

This is not the first place I've heard about the falling in love bit. That said, you have to think you know traits about a person to fall in love with them. To fall in love with the idea of God, you have to think you know something about God. I could feel that I want to know something about God, if there is one. But I may be skeptical about how insightful religious texts are on the subject, given some of the things I've encountered in them. 

No, you can fall in love with a person at first sight without knowing a single thing about them. . I did .  I was " hit by the thunderbolt"   and 45 years later have not recovered from it's effects. 

 My point, however, was,rather, that love and faith/belief  are similar mental constructs or processes. They lack an external physical reality, but have an internal reality/coherence,  and shape our way of relating to, and dealing with, our external realities.   

i agree completely  that religious texts need to be treated with skepticism and mined for appropriate wisdoms and advice, with the dross dumped on the tailings pile.

  They are like any, and all, books One can read them and gain facts, opinions or beliefs, from them, then pick and chose bits which work for your own world view. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

But do we really choose them? 

I can't just choose to believe in the Loch Ness monster, as cool as I think it would be. I'd have to have some kind of evidence that there is such a thing. Otherwise, everything that goes on in my head about it would just be wishful thinking, if I was being honest with myself.

Nup if you have evidence, then belief is no longer possible.  Belief can only logically exist where we lack data to know.

However to take another post Most of us develop a continuum, as data becomes available, where we move from lack of knowledge to knowledge.

 Small bits of evidence, not enough to give us knowledge, may move us from disbelief to belief But a constructed belief is possible and generally most usual where there is a total lack of evidences and we are forced into one of those three positions; belief disbelief or suspension of both.  Eg  the general questions, "Do aliens exist?"  or "Does liquid water exist on mars?" can only be answered as beliefs not from knowledge or evidence. Any of the three positions is reasonable and logically defensible   You realise that every thing that goes on in your head IS just thinking?  Ie it is your minds way of processing and trying to provide you with answers which, both make sense of, and allow you to exist in,  the world around you 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

I guess if you'd peg me on the continuum, I'd be more of a soft agnostic.But it's not really a conscious decision. It's just where I am. 

 

Thats a good place to be and, in my mind, the most logical and rational. I am incapable of believing things in faith so i tend to a process of choosing neither belief nor disbelief then slowly developing enough personal  evidences and experiences to have knowledge  I would argue it is conscious, in that you are aware of it and you have placed yourself there for reasons. You have thought about it at some time.  .

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

I don't know how people muster so much certainty about something so uncertain.

Speaking personally I present everything with certainty.Why talk to others about things you are not yet certain about, yourself. 

if i have a position it is because i have thought it through long and hard, examined it and tested it, and thus am certain of it.

But that certainty often only applies to me, and my life.  It would not be fair or right to impose it on another, EXCEPT where scientific evidences prove it is of physical benefit

Take love for example. i know the intellectual, emotional, and chemical, causes and effects of love.  I have experienced love in its practical form; in it's romantic, intellectualised ideal, In its biological /chemical  form,  and in the emotional sensation which typifies love.  Thus i KNOW it is real, and something all humans can experience if they are taught how to love,  or exposed to it  .  

In the seme way i have encountered the cosmic consciousness and experienced the power enlightenment  and effects which occurs when a human mind connects to/with this entity And so, like love, I KNOW that ANY human mind is capable of a similar connection and experience.  As with love it will be slightly different for every human mind But it will also have enough in common to be discussed, recognised, and compared, between people. 

[eugenonegin]

On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:50 PM, kartikg said:

I have mixed feelings about this, on one hand does God do anything good or anything at all?  is there anything in real world which one can say god did this? I feel god is a silent observer who wants to act good so he created evil to punish people in hell. It's like god has secretly employed Satan to do the dirty work for him. 

Have you never observed all the miracles God does?

All we have to do is pray, and he delivers!

He sorts everything out, from illness to debts!

Religion is wonderful!

[eugenonegin]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No one reads a text and gets exactly the same thing from it, because everyone approaches texts and situations bringing an entire individual world view, unique to them, to the encounter.  The words of god can be found in the accounts of other people, but god itself  can only be encountered in your mind.  if you encountered a  god and wrote about it the next reader would only have your perception of that   god not their own.   

Exactly. God reacts to our prayers and grants us all we wish, we just don't see it.

We just need to open our eyes to see that what we consider to be "bad luck" is actually what God wanted us to have in the first place.

Our car breaks down, God ordained, no, ordered it, to teach us humility.

Wife dies of breast cancer, child dies of leukaemia, all these things are ordered by God to help us to understand how great and kind he is.

Of course, God can also be vengeful.

If he was vengeful, our wife could die of breast cancer or our child die of leukaemia.

Aren't we lucky he is a God of kindness and love?

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, eugeneonegin said:

Exactly. God reacts to our prayers and grants us all we wish, we just don't see it.

We just need to open our eyes to see that what we consider to be "bad luck" is actually what God wanted us to have in the first place.

Our car breaks down, God ordained, no, ordered it, to teach us humility.

Wife dies of breast cancer, child dies of leukaemia, all these things are ordered by God to help us to understand how great and kind he is.

Of course, God can also be vengeful.

If he was vengeful, our wife could die of breast cancer or our child die of leukaemia.

Aren't we lucky he is a God of kindness and love?

 

I suspect this is sarcasm but it is hard to tell   

  In this thread we are talking about the devil and its purpose.  I have argued that  the devil and god are constructs /conceptualised realisations  of our mind, and avatars or representations of the good and evil we recognise in our own consciousness

In this case a better representation of what you  write might be this.

 Your wife has a stroke. It is serious but does not kill her and after 6 months she has regained functional mobility but with loss of strength and fine motor skills 

How you interpret god's role in this and how you respond will be up to your god construct in your mind

Some simple  examples  might be. 

  A. you are an atheist, so god does not come into it 

B you see god as judgemental and the cause of all good and evil in the world   You might blame god yet thank him for not killing your wife   You might think you both deserved gods punishment but also his mercy.

C you see god as merciful just and loving. You thank god for both the relative non severity of the stroke and your wife's quick recovery. You see him as having protected your wife from greater harm  because of her faith in him. 

D. You dont see god in any of those lights but find god as an adjunct to your own self aware consciousness. 

 You recognise that the presence and power of god within you  gives you the courage, strength, and  other characteristics to cope and carry on, the optimism to help you through, the hope for a good outcome etc

As far as you are concerned, god has nothing to do with natural events. God does not reward or punish behaviours although all human behaviours have natural outcomes and consequences connected to their nature  eg a stroke is caused by high blood pressure (and other medical issues like blood clots or weaknesses in the blood vessels)  which in turn are caused by environmental factors. God might provide guidelines for healthy living, which would minimise the risk of stroke and the seriousness of any stroke, but does not cause or prevent strokes.

So god has nothing at all to do with environmental events in your life  and everything to do with how a person sees their world, how they are able to respond to things, including adversities,  and how they are empowered and skilled to deal with everything nature throws at them .

To make it clear; I am the last person,  D,  above.  

God does not cause or prevent cancers,  (or car break downs,  usually)  BUT how we connect to god, and how we are empowered by god can, and does, medically and psychologically, affect how we respond to, recover from, and cope with breast cancer, or a child's leukemia. AND/OR how we deal  with the  death of any loved one 

 Our belief/connection to god, actually alters the chemistry of the brain and of our body, to heal, to help, to empower, to give hope and optimism, to reduce stress,  anxiety, pain and suffering, to prevent non clinical depression etc.

We dealt with two dozen or more health professionals during the last 6 months, as my wife was rehabilitated from her stroke. Every one of them marveled at her attitude, resilience, recovery,  and lack of anger, fear, depression, anxiety or stress.

She did not bother to explain to most that it was her faith in, and  constant connection to, god within her mind  which enabled this and helped her heal so quickly and effectively They would not have understood.  

Ps i used the stroke example for two reasons. First it is a recent actual example from my life. Second it did not involve death  However looking at your two scenarios of the death of a wife or child the same break down of human responses would apply . 

In my case, i know god has nothing to do with deaths,  either natural or man caused.  However, i also know from experience that god can have a great deal to do (if you allow it to)  with how you respond to tragedy, and how it affects you. The presence of god within, and an ongoing connection to the mind and spirit of god, can totally transform and empower any human being,  taking away fear and anger, hate and loneliness, grief and suffering  and replacing them with optimism,  hope,  calm/peace of mind,  joy,   and a connection which never allows you to be alone or lonely  .  

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Mr Walker

[GlitterRose]

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I suspect this is sarcasm but it is hard to tell   

  In this thread we are talking about the devil and its purpose.  I have argued that  the devil and god are constructs /conceptualised realisations  of our mind, and avatars or representations of the good and evil we recognise in our own consciousness

In this case a better representation of what you  write might be this.

 Your wife has a stroke. It is serious but does not kill her and after 6 months she has regained functional mobility but with loss of strength and fine motor skills 

How you interpret god's role in this and how you respond will be up to your god construct in your mind

Some simple  examples  might be. 

  A. you are an atheist, so god does not come into it 

B you see god as judgemental and the cause of all good and evil in the world   You might blame god yet thank him for not killing your wife   You might think you both deserved gods punishment but also his mercy.

C you see god as merciful just and loving. You thank god for both the relative non severity of the stroke and your wife's quick recovery. You see him as having protected your wife from greater harm  because of her faith in him. 

D. You dont see god in any of those lights but find god as an adjunct to your own self aware consciousness. 

 You recognise that the presence and power of god within you  gives you the courage, strength, and  other characteristics to cope and carry on, the optimism to help you through, the hope for a good outcome etc

As far as you are concerned, god has nothing to do with natural events. God does not reward or punish behaviours although all human behaviours have natural outcomes and consequences connected to their nature  eg a stroke is caused by high blood pressure (and other medical issues like blood clots or weaknesses in the blood vessels)  which in turn are caused by environmental factors. God might provide guidelines for healthy living, which would minimise the risk of stroke and the seriousness of any stroke, but does not cause or prevent strokes.

So god has nothing at all to do with environmental events in your life  and everything to do with how a person sees their world, how they are able to respond to things, including adversities,  and how they are empowered and skilled to deal with everything nature throws at them .

To make it clear; I am the last person,  D,  above.  

God does not cause or prevent cancers,  (or car break downs,  usually)  BUT how we connect to god, and how we are empowered by god can, and does, medically and psychologically, affect how we respond to, recover from, and cope with breast cancer, or a child's leukemia. AND/OR how we deal  with the  death of any loved one 

 Our belief/connection to god, actually alters the chemistry of the brain and of our body, to heal, to help, to empower, to give hope and optimism, to reduce stress,  anxiety, pain and suffering, to prevent non clinical depression etc.

We dealt with two dozen or more health professionals during the last 6 months, as my wife was rehabilitated from her stroke. Every one of them marveled at her attitude, resilience, recovery,  and lack of anger, fear, depression, anxiety or stress.

She did not bother to explain to most that it was her faith in, and  constant connection to, god within her mind  which enabled this and helped her heal so quickly and effectively They would not have understood.  

Ps i used the stroke example for two reasons. First it is a recent actual example from my life. Second it did not involve death  However looking at your two scenarios of the death of a wife or child the same break down of human responses would apply . 

In my case, i know god has nothing to do with deaths,  either natural or man caused.  However, i also know from experience that god can have a great deal to do (if you allow it to)  with how you respond to tragedy, and how it affects you. The presence of god within, and an ongoing connection to the mind and spirit of god, can totally transform and empower any human being,  taking away fear and anger, hate and loneliness, grief and suffering  and replacing them with optimism,  hope,  calm/peace of mind,  joy,   and a connection which never allows you to be alone or lonely  .  

 

 

 

How would you know that? Are you getting it from the bible? The bible has plenty of instances where it tells us that God is responsible for natural disasters. 

[Mr Walker]

20 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

How would you know that? Are you getting it from the bible? The bible has plenty of instances where it tells us that God is responsible for natural disasters. 

I know it from my schooling, education and experiences   The bible is wrong in this regard but understandably so . It reflects writings of people who did not understand things like plate tectonics, or the ionisation of air molecules, and thus thought that volcanoes and earthquakes and lightning were caused by powerful conscious entities. People who had no knowledge of bacterial infection  carcinogens or  genetic  mutations   Any modern human being with a little knowledge knows and understands the nature of life and death,  and what causes humans to die  it certainly is not the consequence of any god's actions.    Increasingly we not only know what causes humans to die but are finding solutions to those deaths  eliminating cancers, and other evolved system failures of the human body, as one example  

Edited July 20, 2017 by Mr Walker

[GlitterRose]

14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I know it from my schooling, education and experiences   The bible is wrong in this regard but understandably so . It reflects writings of people who did not understand things like plate tectonics, or the ionisation of air molecules, and thus thought that volcanoes and earthquakes and lightning were caused by powerful conscious entities. People who had no knowledge of bacterial infection  carcinogens or  genetic  mutations   Any modern human being with a little knowledge knows and understands the nature of life and death,  and what causes humans to die  it certainly is not the consequence of any god's actions.    Increasingly we not only know what causes humans to die but are finding solutions to those deaths  eliminating cancers, and other evolved system failures of the human body, as one example  

Unless God is teaching at your school, or is communicating in some way to you, I'm not sure how you could know that. 

Everything you're saying is just your personal opinion. And that's fine. It's just different than actually knowing something to be true.