Is "The Devil" necessary?

[Khanivore]

On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 7:31 AM, nephili said:

It seems that most religions and especially certain fundamental branches of the large religions believe in this evil being and his influence. The serpent in the garden, "The Fallen one", Lucifer, Loki, Beelzebub, Shaitan, Mara, Iblis... There is almost as many names for this being than for "God".

I think it is one thing to believe in an all knowing architect or creator, but to believe an all knowing creator creating his own opponent just seems irrational and impossible at best. And to believe it so that it is in almost all religions. Do you believe that evil must exist to highlight the good? Why does the evil being fit in so well in our myths and legends?

Why has religion been so dependent on this evil being? Was it a safe guard so it could always be said "the devil made me do it"? Was it so we could blame death on something other than "God"? I'm open to any opinions.

The devil was not created as an opponent, nor is he an opponent to god. He was also a creation like ourselves, one who initially served god well, was pious and a leader, ranking highly amongst those in heaven. His rebellion caused his fall, like us, he too had free will and chose to rebel when Adam was created. God asked all the angels to prostrate to Adam but he the devil (a Djinn) rebelled and became spiteful and angry, claiming he was better than this new creation etc. Anyway, you probably know the story, cut it short. The devil challenged god that he could make his new creation rebel and disobey him in the same fashion and he pleaded with god to give him life till the end of days to carry it out, God accepted the challenge and today we fight for our souls. The Devil is not equal to god nor does he have any power but that which is granted to him to carry out his challenge, on the day of resurrection when we will be judged for our choices, so will he and will distance himself from us when we blame him. He too will spend eternity in hell not as a ruler as depicted incorrectly, but eternal damnation.

Evil is the result of the absence of good.

[Khanivore]

39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I know it from my schooling, education and experiences   The bible is wrong in this regard but understandably so . It reflects writings of people who did not understand things like plate tectonics, or the ionisation of air molecules, and thus thought that volcanoes and earthquakes and lightning were caused by powerful conscious entities. People who had no knowledge of bacterial infection  carcinogens or  genetic  mutations   Any modern human being with a little knowledge knows and understands the nature of life and death,  and what causes humans to die  it certainly is not the consequence of any god's actions.    Increasingly we not only know what causes humans to die but are finding solutions to those deaths  eliminating cancers, and other evolved system failures of the human body, as one example  

That is mainly opinion based on faith on the scientific clergy. Why would people need to understand plate tectonics, is everyone today an expert in science or do you just believe what the science books tell you? Do you then put those theories to the test or analyse them critically, or do you just swallow them whole on the basis they are coming from a trusted source (trustworthy in your eyes)? None of what you said negates the bible nor any other religious scripture, science deals with the physical reality you experience and is a tool to understand the world around you and how it works, not why it is there, or why you exist at all or for that matter why does the universe exist at all. Do you understand there are some concepts with human capacity and mind which are beyond the physical reality and deal with the metaphysical, ideally you should combine science with philosophy to get a better understanding of the physical and metaphysical.

[GlitterRose]

1 hour ago, Khanivore said:

The devil was not created as an opponent, nor is he an opponent to god. He was also a creation like ourselves, one who initially served god well, was pious and a leader, ranking highly amongst those in heaven. His rebellion caused his fall, like us, he too had free will and chose to rebel when Adam was created. God asked all the angels to prostrate to Adam but he the devil (a Djinn) rebelled and became spiteful and angry, claiming he was better than this new creation etc. Anyway, you probably know the story, cut it short. The devil challenged god that he could make his new creation rebel and disobey him in the same fashion and he pleaded with god to give him life till the end of days to carry it out, God accepted the challenge and today we fight for our souls. The Devil is not equal to god nor does he have any power but that which is granted to him to carry out his challenge, on the day of resurrection when we will be judged for our choices, so will he and will distance himself from us when we blame him. He too will spend eternity in hell not as a ruler as depicted incorrectly, but eternal damnation.

Evil is the result of the absence of good.

I'm assuming that you're Muslim because you discussed Djinn. What are the Muslim ideas about omniscience of God? 

Ultimately, people are either getting their ideas about God from their religious texts or from their own thoughts, neither of which anyone knows are correct. And even if they believe they're in communication directly with God, how could one know that? Might just be Djinns messing with you, eh? In fact, how would anyone know if they were responsible for the corrupting the texts? 

[Will Due]

17 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I'm assuming that you're Muslim because you discussed Djinn. What are the Muslim ideas about omniscience of God? 

Ultimately, people are either getting their ideas about God from their religious texts or from their own thoughts, neither of which anyone knows are correct. And even if they believe they're in communication directly with God, how could one know that? Might just be Djinns messing with you, eh? In fact, how would anyone know if they were responsible for the corrupting the texts? 

If you're willing to think that the devil is responsible for the corruption of texts, why wouldn't you also allow for the possibility that everything the devil has done is responsible for why so many throw the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to be willing to believe in God because of this evidence?

Might just be Djinns messing with you, eh?

 

 

[GoldenWolf]

2 hours ago, Khanivore said:

The devil was not created as an opponent, nor is he an opponent to god. He was also a creation like ourselves, one who initially served god well, was pious and a leader, ranking highly amongst those in heaven. His rebellion caused his fall, like us, he too had free will and chose to rebel when Adam was created. God asked all the angels to prostrate to Adam but he the devil (a Djinn) rebelled and became spiteful and angry, claiming he was better than this new creation etc. Anyway, you probably know the story, cut it short. The devil challenged god that he could make his new creation rebel and disobey him in the same fashion and he pleaded with god to give him life till the end of days to carry it out, God accepted the challenge and today we fight for our souls. The Devil is not equal to god nor does he have any power but that which is granted to him to carry out his challenge, on the day of resurrection when we will be judged for our choices, so will he and will distance himself from us when we blame him. He too will spend eternity in hell not as a ruler as depicted incorrectly, but eternal damnation.

Evil is the result of the absence of good.

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, Khanivore said:

The devil was not created as an opponent, nor is he an opponent to god. He was also a creation like ourselves, one who initially served god well, was pious and a leader, ranking highly amongst those in heaven. His rebellion caused his fall, like us, he too had free will and chose to rebel when Adam was created. God asked all the angels to prostrate to Adam but he the devil (a Djinn) rebelled and became spiteful and angry, claiming he was better than this new creation etc. Anyway, you probably know the story, cut it short. The devil challenged god that he could make his new creation rebel and disobey him in the same fashion and he pleaded with god to give him life till the end of days to carry it out, God accepted the challenge and today we fight for our souls. The Devil is not equal to god nor does he have any power but that which is granted to him to carry out his challenge, on the day of resurrection when we will be judged for our choices, so will he and will distance himself from us when we blame him. He too will spend eternity in hell not as a ruler as depicted incorrectly, but eternal damnation.

Evil is the result of the absence of good.

Whether or not good is absent, evil doesn't exist unless it is chosen. That's why the devil may have done good, mixed in with the evil he chose to do. 

"Lucifer's folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time...."

 

 

 

[GoldenWolf]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

"Lucifer's folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time...."

His folly is being anti the golden rule and being a nihilistic malignant narcissist/psychopath.

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, Mystic Crusader said:

His folly is being anti the golden rule and being a nihilistic malignant narcissist/psychopath.

Well said. He should be removed from every facet of life don't you think? 

You know how it will get done?

When everyone on the planet, knowing all this and standing in his face, goes right on doing God's will, for good. 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Will Due

[GlitterRose]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

If you're willing to think that the devil is responsible for the corruption of texts, why wouldn't you also allow for the possibility that everything the devil has done is responsible for why so many throw the baby out with the bathwater and refuse to be willing to believe in God because of this evidence?

Might just be Djinns messing with you, eh?

 

 

I didn't say I was willing to think that. I don't believe in a devil/demons/djinns in a literal sense. That said, if one did believe that djinns exist and are always trying to deceive us (which Khanivore obviously does), corrupting religious texts would be a great way to do it.

Whispering in your ear and making you think you're talking to God would also be a great way.

What evidence are you talking about? 

Edited July 20, 2017 by ChaosRose

[GlitterRose]

People keep saying I throw out the baby with the bathwater. Are they talking about the concept of God? Because I have already stated that I'm not an atheist. I haven't thrown out the concept of God. I haven't even refused to give religious texts consideration. Clearly, religious texts are flawed. There are gems to be found in them, but then there's all that muck to wade through. I just don't believe people need to swallow the muck while seeking the baby. 

[GlitterRose]

I also think that when you buy into all that stuff about alien beings and eugenics and skin color having something to do with superiority...you, my friend, are also swallowing the muck. And whether or not it's in the hopes that you will find the baby...it's still muck. 

[GlitterRose]

It's similar to eating bs in search of a steak. 

I apologize for how irreverent that sounds, but it's the best analogy I could muster.

Edited July 20, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Will Due]

21 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I didn't say I was willing to think that. I don't believe in a devil/demons/djinns in a literal sense. That said, if one did believe that djinns exist and are always trying to deceive us (which Khanivore obviously does), corrupting religious texts would be a great way to do it.

Whispering in your ear and making you think you're talking to God would also be a great way.

What evidence are you talking about? 

The evidence that EVERYTHING has been corrupted. 

Except those things and people that exist and live according to God's will.

 

 

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

The evidence that EVERYTHING has been corrupted. 

Except those things and people that exist and live according to God's will.

 

 

Which we could not know if everything was corrupted.

[Will Due]

Just now, ChaosRose said:

Which we could not know if everything was corrupted.

You can know, if you're not corrupted.

Be sure, don't doubt.

 

 

[GlitterRose]

Ultimately, we're left with our brains, which are themselves not infallible. And we have to hope we're bright enough not to swallow bs while we're searching for the steak. If we get a good whiff of bs, we should probably realize that it's not steak. 

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You can know, if you're not corrupted.

Be sure, don't doubt.

 

 

I'm not the one arguing that eugenics is a good thing and that skin color has something to do with superiority...because I read a book someone says aliens dictated. 

That's you. 

But clearly, I'm the one who is corrupted, and that's why I don't see the light. 

[Will Due]

Living in a world where almost EVERYTHING is corrupted, is the greatest blessing possible. 

Because it makes it real easy to see, and chose to be un-corrupted.

 

 

[GlitterRose]

Just now, Will Due said:

Living in a world where almost EVERYTHING is corrupted, is the greatest blessing possible. 

Because it makes it real easy to see, and chose to be un-corrupted.

 

 

I choose to be un-corrupted by your book...because I smell the stench of bs coming from it a mile away. I'm not sure how it is that you can't. 

[GoldenWolf]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Living in a world where almost EVERYTHING is corrupted, is the greatest blessing possible. 

Because it makes it real easy to see, and chose to be un-corrupted.

 

 

That is a corrupt thing to say in itself^^^.

[Will Due]

Well then I get it:

Insane insane insane 

Evidence evidence evidence 

Drip Drip Drip Drip Drip Drip Drip 

 

 

[GlitterRose]

I get it. I came along and saw you eating a cow patty, thinking it was a steak. And now you're angry because I told you it wasn't a steak. 

If you wanna continue to eat the cow patty...it's your decision. I just think I would be amiss if I allowed you to try and sell it to other people, claiming it's a steak. 

Cute little saying I've heard: Don't **** in my hand and tell me it's a cupcake. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by ChaosRose

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I get it. I came along and saw you eating a cow patty, thinking it was a steak. And now you're angry because I told you it wasn't a steak. 

If you wanna continue to eat the cow patty...it's your decision. I just think I would be amiss if I allowed you to try and sell it to other people, claiming it's a steak. 

Cute little saying I've heard: Don't **** in my hand and tell me it's a cupcake. 

Well, if you're handed a cupcake, why not eat it? Instead of sounding off that a cupcake isn't good enough for you. Because you only eat steak.

 

 

[rashore]

Allrighty folks, knock it off with the bickering please. Discuss the topic nice and civil.

 

rashore, moderating team

[Grandpa Greenman]

5 hours ago, Will Due said:

The evidence that EVERYTHING has been corrupted. 

Except those things and people that exist and live according to God's will.

 

 

How do you know what God's will is, how do you know which text is God's will. Is God's will in the Rig Vedas, Mahayana sutras, The Mabinogion, etc...   I here a lot of claims of God's will, but how does one know what God's will is?   God's will seems mostly dependent on who is claims to know it.