Did Children Build Akhetaten?

[docyabut2]

42 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

A fair question. First it's important to understand that Habiru is what Levantines and Mesopotamians called them, while the Egyptian variant is Apiru. So there's consistency there,  The word originally developed in the Akkadian tongue around the 18th century BCE and fell out of use by the 11th century BCE, so right about the time the first Hebrews were emerging in the Levant. The word means "migrant," although later it took on the derogatory meaning "bandit. Hebrew means "to cross over" or "pass through," so there's definitely a different shade of meaning. A big difference is, the Hebrews called themselves by this name (as well as others) while the bandits of the Habiru were given that name by others. But the biggest point is, again, the Habiru emerged too early to have been the Hebrews, and they were not of the same ethnicity or language.

I once explained all this in more detail in this old thread.

 There were the Hebrews that came out of Babylon that claimed to be speaking different languages  

[docyabut2]

Just now, docyabut2 said:

 There were the Hebrews that came out of Babylon that claimed the story  to be  of speaking different languages  

 

[atalante]

Amarna contained LHIIIA1 pottery from the reign of Amenhotep III; and also contained LHIIIA2 pottery from the reign of Akhenaten.  Perhaps this indicates that Amenhotep III had built something at Amarna, before Akhenaten's huge construction project.  If so, this would provide a longer time for burying people in the Amarna cemeteries.

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, atalante said:

Amarna contained LHIIIA1 pottery from the reign of Amenhotep III; and also contained LHIIIA2 pottery from the reign of Akhenaten.  Perhaps this indicates that Amenhotep III had built something at Amarna, before Akhenaten's huge construction project.  If so, this would provide a longer time for burying people in the Amarna cemeteries.

Akhenaten began the construction of his city in Year 5, and completed it three or four years later. He deliberately wanted a virgin site, In fact, of the extensive excavations conducted there, no indication of building projects or settlement patterns are evident from before Akhenaten's reign. But the presence of ceramics from the time of Amunhotep III wouldn't be at all surprising, given that there must've been a lot of it floating around the houses, palace, and temples (so long as all inferences of the name "Amun" were wiped out there). It would also depend on whether you're in favor of a long co-regency with Amunhotep III and Akhenaten, or no co-regency. If the former, it's altogether possible Amunhotep III and his retinue visited Akhetaten on several occasions. As for myself, I remain undecided on the co-regency question, although it's a hot-button issue with numerous Egyptologists.

[kmt_sesh]

Four different threads concurrently about ancient history and especially ancient Egypt. I like this!

[kmt_sesh]

I needed to make a point of clarification that I forgot to mention before. Specifically, LHIIA pottery (1 and 2) is not Egyptian but Mycenaean. Just a fussy note and not of terrible importance, because there's plentiful evidence for Mycenaean material culture in Egypt. Whether that means Mycenaeans were resident at Amarna or the ceramics ended up there through trade is not always known with certainty.

[Khaemwaset]

On 6/7/2017 at 2:34 AM, back to earth said:

Its an interesting contrast to other places , like  the 'workman's villages '    ( whatever the real name is for what I am thinking of   )

 

On 6/7/2017 at 8:11 PM, Khaemwaset said:

A 2015 article in USA Today about the Amarna commoners' cemeteries' skeletons, noting some bore the scars of execution, and also the prevalent presence of malnutrition and its related diseases such as scurvy:https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/10/13/egypt-cemetery-punishment-lashes-wounds/73688038/

Note the malnutrition and related diseases present in the Amarna cemeteries.  And as back to earth mentioned, is it not an interesting contrast to elsewhere where we have found workers' remains in Ancient Egypt?  Why was Amarna different...yes, the work was always difficult for those doing the heavy lifting, but is malnutrition present in the workers' remains at Giza. Western Thebes, etc?  I don't think I've ever read that (but I don't read much, so there's that.) 

Though as to plagues, I do remember reading 'A DIstant Mirror' by Barbara Tuchman years ago, in which she posited (among many things) that a quarter of Europe (and the world so-to-speak) died because of the simultaneous outbreak of Bubonic and its cadet infection Pneumonic Plagues in the fourteenth century CE, leading to the rapid spread and the multiple symptoms reported.  Amarna could have experienced something like that I suppose.  So here's a link to a 2004 article in National Geographic, tracing bubonic plague to Egypt and Amarna, by examining insect remains: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/03/0310_040310_blackdeath.html    

From page 2 of the article:

In Egypt Panagiotakopulu combed the workers'-village site in Amarna, where the builders of the tombs of Egyptian kings Tutankhamun and Akhenaton lived. There, the researcher unearthed cat and human fleas—known to be plague carriers in some cases—in and around the workers' homes. That find spurred Panagiotakopulu to believe that the bubonic plague's fleaborne bacteria could also have been lurking in the area, so she went in search of other clues.

Previous excavations along the Nile Delta had turned up Nile rats, an endemic species, dating to the 16th and 17th century B.C. The plague's main carrier flea is thought to be native to the Nile Valley and is known to be a Nile rat parasite.

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by Khaemwaset

[Ajenaton777]

 Why are you so dogmatic in your statement that the bodies found in the Amarna cemeteries (which the forensic diagnoses indicate poor nutrition and heavy work) were of people who died under the reign of Akhenaten? Why do not you take into account that the city of Akhetaten was inhabited until the reign of Horemheb, and that this king could be responsible for the poor quality of life and subsequent death of those people? Furthermore, why do not you inform your readers of the fact that the workers who worked on the tombs of Akhenaten and his nobles were well fed and did not suffer from hunger, as evidenced by the discovery of numerous bones of cattle, goats and pigs, found there by the archeologist Barry Kemp?. Moreover, if the workers of Akhenaten suffered from hunger, why did they not strike, as indeed did the workers of Deir el-Medinah under the reign of Ramses III? In order to attribute those bad living conditions of the inhabitants of Akhetaten to Akhenaten requires two things: first that you have unequivocal evidence that he was the only king who ruled the city, which is not the case, and secondly that you explain why the workers of the Akhenaten and his nobles tombs, who lived in the Workmen´s Village and the Stone Village, were very well fed. This last point indicates the care that Akhenaten had for his workers and the welfare they enjoyed, and therefore, these evidences indicate that he was not responsible for the poor quality of life of the workers found in the cemeteries south and north of the city. So, when you put Akhenaten on judgment and attribute misconduct to him, please base your statements on historical documentation, and not on unfounded hypotheses that only repeat what others say.

[jaylemurph]

Nothing says “Ignore my ranting” like the refusal to divide up your rant into paragraphs. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Wistman]

oops

Edited November 13, 2018 by The Wistman

[Wistman]

2 hours ago, Ajenaton777 said:

 Why are you so dogmatic in your statement that the bodies found in the Amarna cemeteries (which the forensic diagnoses indicate poor nutrition and heavy work) were of people who died under the reign of Akhenaten? Why do not you take into account that the city of Akhetaten was inhabited until the reign of Horemheb, and that this king could be responsible for the poor quality of life and subsequent death of those people? Furthermore, why do not you inform your readers of the fact that the workers who worked on the tombs of Akhenaten and his nobles were well fed and did not suffer from hunger, as evidenced by the discovery of numerous bones of cattle, goats and pigs, found there by the archeologist Barry Kemp?. Moreover, if the workers of Akhenaten suffered from hunger, why did they not strike, as indeed did the workers of Deir el-Medinah under the reign of Ramses III? In order to attribute those bad living conditions of the inhabitants of Akhetaten to Akhenaten requires two things: first that you have unequivocal evidence that he was the only king who ruled the city, which is not the case, and secondly that you explain why the workers of the Akhenaten and his nobles tombs, who lived in the Workmen´s Village and the Stone Village, were very well fed. This last point indicates the care that Akhenaten had for his workers and the welfare they enjoyed, and therefore, these evidences indicate that he was not responsible for the poor quality of life of the workers found in the cemeteries south and north of the city. So, when you put Akhenaten on judgment and attribute misconduct to him, please base your statements on historical documentation, and not on unfounded hypotheses that only repeat what others say.

I'm surprised to see this old thread resurrected.

The author no longer lives in this neighborhood, so he won't be able to answer your pointed questions.

[danydandan]

@kmt_sesh will be shutting this necromancer thread down I assume? So a response will be unavailable anyways.

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, danydandan said:

@kmt_sesh will be shutting this necromancer thread down I assume? So a response will be unavailable anyways.

Mmm, not just yet. Let's see how it goes. It's interesting to encounter someone who has rose-colored glasses for a zealot like Akhenaten.

[Unusual Tournament]

On 6/7/2017 at 1:25 AM, Khaemwaset said:

The Guardian has this article posted today, raising the possibility that children were conscripted to build the city of Akhetaten by the government of the Pharaoh Akhenaten: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/jun/06/did-children-build-the-ancient-egyptian-city-of-armana-

I am no Amarna scholar, but I believe this brings a different angle to the story of the city and the controversial reign that was invalidated after the king had died and was struck from the records of Ancient Egypt by the powers he had suppressed and by his own family members, only for it to be pieced together (somewhat) by later historians and archaeologists.  The 'story' has intrigued many, but does the grim reality of recent excavations cause us to see Akhenaten and his methods differently?  How does the employment of such a work force differ from other building projects of Ancient Egypt?  Are there any parallels, or was this unique, as so many other issues concerning this Pharaoh's reign were?

I hope this thread is not narrowly focused only on the report of the excavation, but can take on some of the larger issues that might apply.  

reading this excerpt from the link provided I've come to either two conclusions. cheap child labour or Akhenaten wanted to purposely build a city by the innocent at heart to show the purity of his faith.  

[Unusual Tournament]

actually i wonder if the Jewish faith and Hebrew exodus had their origins in the cult of Aten ? and eventually the outcasts of Akhenaten forced into slavery for being monotheistic and then left/kicked outta Egypt...

[Coil]

20 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

actually i wonder if the Jewish faith and Hebrew exodus had their origins in the cult of Aten ? and eventually the outcasts of Akhenaten forced into slavery for being monotheistic and then left/kicked outta Egypt...

The reasons for Akhenaten's reforms, which are sometimes called the “atonistic revolution,” are not completely clear and remain debatable.
 Researchers suggested that reform was necessary to create a common religion for closer cohesion of the vast Egyptian power, where each city worshiped its own god, often hostile to the god of another city. Regardless of whether this explanation of Akhenat's reforms is true or not, the result was the opposite.

Scientists have come close but we will go even further:

Ehnaton was a great visionary leader l and a prophet, and his goal was the illumination of the popular minds of the reality of the One God. If the reform of Akhenaten was successful, meeting worthy successors and followers, the mission of Christ would have been accomplished several centuries earlier, and not in the Jordan, but in the Nile Valley.
In the XIV century BC, the first attempt in world history to make a clearly formulated solar monotheism by the national religion was made. This happened in Egypt, and the gigantic figure of the pharaoh reformer still towers over the horizon of past centuries as an image of one of the first prophets in history. What complete loneliness this genius poet and seer had to experience, ending his inspired hymn to the One Divine with a tragic complaint: “And no one knows You, except Your son, Akhenaton!”

However, it is impossible to understand this complaint with absolute literalness: there was at least one person who shared his loneliness. The role of Queen Nefertiti, his wife, as an instigator and participant in religious reform can hardly be exaggerated by anyone. This amazing woman passed through the golden sands of her country as a messenger of the same Heavenly Light as her husband, and they both long ago, inseparably connected by creativity and divine love on all paths, reached the highest worlds.

Attempt Akhenaton suffered, as you know, wreck. Not only the cult founded by him, even the name of the reformer itself was erased from the annals of Egyptian historiography; historical truth was restored only at the end of the 19th century by the efforts of European archaeologists. Together with the collapse of this plan and with the long, steady dominance of polytheism, Egypt also fell out of the possible arenas of Christ’s incarnation.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Coil

[Unusual Tournament]

2 minutes ago, Coil said:

The reasons for Akhenaten's reforms, which are sometimes called the “atonistic revolution,” are not completely clear and remain debatable.
 Researchers suggested that reform was necessary to create a common religion for closer cohesion of the vast Egyptian power, where each city worshiped its own god, often hostile to the god of another city. Regardless of whether this explanation of Akhenat's reforms is true or not, the result was the opposite.

Scientists have come close but we will go even further:

Ehnaton was a great rodmashl and a prophet, and his goal was the illumination of the popular minds of the reality of the One God. If the reform of Akhenaten was successful, meeting worthy successors and followers, the mission of Christ would have been accomplished several centuries earlier, and not in the Jordan, but in the Nile Valley.
In the XIV century BC, the first attempt in world history to make a clearly formulated solar monotheism by the national religion was made. This happened in Egypt, and the gigantic figure of the pharaoh reformer still towers over the horizon of past centuries as an image of one of the first prophets in history. What complete loneliness this genius poet and seer had to experience, ending his inspired hymn to the One Divine with a tragic complaint: “And no one knows You, except Your son, Akhenaton!”

However, it is impossible to understand this complaint with absolute literalness: there was at least one person who shared his loneliness. The role of Queen Nefertiti, his wife, as an instigator and participant in religious reform can hardly be exaggerated by anyone. This amazing woman passed through the golden sands of her country as a messenger of the same Heavenly Light as her husband, and they both long ago, inseparably connected by creativity and divine love on all paths, reached the highest worlds.

Attempt Akhenaton suffered, as you know, wreck. Not only the cult founded by him, even the name of the reformer itself was erased from the annals of Egyptian historiography; historical truth was restored only at the end of the 19th century by the efforts of European archaeologists. Together with the collapse of this plan and with the long, steady dominance of polytheism, Egypt also fell out of the possible arenas of Christ’s incarnation.

 

 

so what are you trying to say?

[Coil]

18 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

so what are you trying to say?

Akhenaten tried through religious reform  of monotheism  to enlighten the people through the incarnation of Christ but was not understood, therefore, the avatar incarnation was postponed to a later period, but even then the mission of Christ remained incomplete due to his death, which means the transformation of humanity, the immortality and possession of true consciousness is postponed for humanity to a later date in the next race.

 

 

 

[jaylemurph]

8 hours ago, Coil said:

Scientists have come close but we will go even further:

 

"We"? 

Are you so massively egotistical as to have adopted the Royal We or are you seriously suggesting other people believe the dreck you **** out in this forum?

--Jaylemurph 

[kmt_sesh]

9 hours ago, Coil said:

Akhenaten tried through religious reform  of monotheism  to enlighten the people through the incarnation of Christ but was not understood, therefore, the avatar incarnation was postponed to a later period, but even then the mission of Christ remained incomplete due to his death, which means the transformation of humanity, the immortality and possession of true consciousness is postponed for humanity to a later date in the next race.

 

 

 

You must taker care not to squeeze Judeo-Christian sensibilities into Akhenaten's religious reforms. His attempts were purely Egyptian based on the solar cult. Judeo-Christian traditions had not even begun to exist yet. You have to understand Akhenaten through the filter of Egyptian tradition, and as far as that goes, Atenism was not truly monotheistic but henotheism. Do not fall pray to such obvious anachronisms, There has been a certain subset of people all the way from the 1960s who have tried to present Akhenaten as some sort of peace-loving prophet and flower child. It's the very height of absurdity.

[kmt_sesh]

On 11/13/2018 at 2:04 PM, Ajenaton777 said:

 Why are you so dogmatic in your statement that the bodies found in the Amarna cemeteries (which the forensic diagnoses indicate poor nutrition and heavy work) were of people who died under the reign of Akhenaten? Why do not you take into account that the city of Akhetaten was inhabited until the reign of Horemheb, and that this king could be responsible for the poor quality of life and subsequent death of those people? Furthermore, why do not you inform your readers of the fact that the workers who worked on the tombs of Akhenaten and his nobles were well fed and did not suffer from hunger, as evidenced by the discovery of numerous bones of cattle, goats and pigs, found there by the archeologist Barry Kemp?. Moreover, if the workers of Akhenaten suffered from hunger, why did they not strike, as indeed did the workers of Deir el-Medinah under the reign of Ramses III? In order to attribute those bad living conditions of the inhabitants of Akhetaten to Akhenaten requires two things: first that you have unequivocal evidence that he was the only king who ruled the city, which is not the case, and secondly that you explain why the workers of the Akhenaten and his nobles tombs, who lived in the Workmen´s Village and the Stone Village, were very well fed. This last point indicates the care that Akhenaten had for his workers and the welfare they enjoyed, and therefore, these evidences indicate that he was not responsible for the poor quality of life of the workers found in the cemeteries south and north of the city. So, when you put Akhenaten on judgment and attribute misconduct to him, please base your statements on historical documentation, and not on unfounded hypotheses that only repeat what others say.

Why would Horemheb have situated such a large workforce at a ghost town? Akhetaten would've been mostly abandoned by the time Horemheb took the throne. Did you get a sense in the article just how large the cemetery was? These young people weren't building tombs; they were tasked with building the city itself. We know how quickly Akhetaten came together, which strongly suggests a brutal work effort. The bones themselves leave a clear record of poor nutrition and harsh working conditions.

What other king would've resided in Akhetaten? The only possibility is Amunhotep III, and the situation with the coregency is far from settled. Besides which, the boundary stelae that encircle the city mention only Akhenaten and his family. There was no other king in residence there. Akhenaten moved into the city around year 5 of his reign and possibly never set foot beyond it again. It was his city, his self-imposed prison.

The Egypt of Akhenaten and the Egypt of Ramesses III were two entirely different things. Many people who like Akhenaten do not seem to appreciate how dictatorial he had to have been to forxe his religious reforms on the state. Just the closing of the Amun cult and its temples would've been traumatic. In his time Akhenaten ruled over one of the strongest militaries in the Middle East, and even though he neglected the stability of Egypt's vassal kingdoms, he easily could've used his military against his own population. Set these conditions against the latter yearso f Ramesses III, which witnessed an exhausted and depleted Egyptian state. The workers at Deir el Medina were able to strike because there was no one at the time to stop them from doing so.

You would seem to be an apologist for Akhenaten. The Amarna Period was truly a fascinating time, and it continues to be an interesting time to research. But the truth is, Akhenaten was on of the least effective monarchs of Dynasty 18—and probably a religious zealot who garnered more enemies than friends. Look how quickly his court abandoned him after his death, and how quickly his entire cult and capital faded away after his death. This was a man everyone literally wanted to forget.

[Unusual Tournament]

12 hours ago, Coil said:

Akhenaten tried through religious reform  of monotheism  to enlighten the people through the incarnation of Christ but was not understood, therefore, the avatar incarnation was postponed to a later period, but even then the mission of Christ remained incomplete due to his death, which means the transformation of humanity, the immortality and possession of true consciousness is postponed for humanity to a later date in the next race.

 

 

 

It does seem strange that outta nowhere (I could be wrong) a new faith that differs so differently from the established state one would rise only to be replaced just as quickly by the old religion. Whichever way you look at it progressing from a multitude of conflicting Gods to explain life and the afterlife, to a single all inclusive God is not normal and logical without some type of trigger. A foreign invader or Foreign idea is required. one mans thoughts, even if he is a king to upend the establishment is a next to impossible task. So even though I find it hard to establish a direct line from Pharaoh to Jesus I can see how someone as religious as you obviously has. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

8 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

It does seem strange that outta nowhere (I could be wrong) a new faith that differs so differently from the established state one would rise only to be replaced just as quickly by the old religion. Whichever way you look at it progressing from a multitude of conflicting Gods to explain life and the afterlife, to a single all inclusive God is not normal and logical without some type of trigger. A foreign invader or Foreign idea is required. one mans thoughts, even if he is a king to upend the establishment is a next to impossible task. So even though I find it hard to establish a direct line from Pharaoh to Jesus I can see how someone as religious as you obviously has. 

Ego, Risky. Ego pure and simple.

Akhenaten was like Il Duce, all ego and swagger. Not for him a city used by other Pharaohs. Not for him a religion with other peoples’ gods. Not for him to have someone else tell him what the gods are saying.

[kmt_sesh]

13 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

It does seem strange that outta nowhere (I could be wrong) a new faith that differs so differently from the established state one would rise only to be replaced just as quickly by the old religion. Whichever way you look at it progressing from a multitude of conflicting Gods to explain life and the afterlife, to a single all inclusive God is not normal and logical without some type of trigger. A foreign invader or Foreign idea is required. one mans thoughts, even if he is a king to upend the establishment is a next to impossible task. So even though I find it hard to establish a direct line from Pharaoh to Jesus I can see how someone as religious as you obviously has. 

Akhenaten's dad, Amunhotep III, was really the first to focus on the Aten, a minor manifestation of Re going back centuries. So Akhenaten got the idea from him; but whereas Amunhotep III was content to use it as a personal religion, Akhenaten forced on the state—with disastrous results.

[Unusual Tournament]

9 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Ego, Risky. Ego pure and simple.

Akhenaten was like Il Duce, all ego and swagger. Not for him a city used by other Pharaohs. Not for him a religion with other peoples’ gods. Not for him to have someone else tell him what the gods are saying.

 Not entirely true. Changing a persons religion is one thing but changing a culture built on religion is a process.