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Mark of the Beast


Opus Magnus

Mark of the Beast  

54 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you take or receive the mark of the beast six hundred three score and six in your right hand or forehead?

    • Yes
      12
    • No
      42


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As for the mark of the beast.  I guess, if left unchecked, our fate would be similar to the rats in the experiment.  Actually ironically, many of these things they go through are predicted of Israel to go through in the old testament.

But, I guess, rather than go extinct by losing our ability to breed by overpopulating and destroying our genes, like happened to the rats, Revelation promises an end in fire with tribulation and persecutions, and plauges.

I guess the only other chance we would have would be to move to another planet, but then after a long time the situation would probably repeat on the other planet.  But just by moving to another planet, we would most likely increase our chances of space jumping from planet to planet, eventually getting out of our solar system and eventually galaxy.

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8 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

If you google behavior sink experiment you'll find quite a lot of results.  It was a pretty influential experiment when it was done in 1974.  Those things weren't in the link, but I read about it in a magazine yesterday, and it talked about it there.  He suspected such things as, people not wanting to kill animals, left-handedness, being non-religious, and other things like deciding not wanting to have children, and deciding not to have relations with the opposite gender in general were genetic mutations, because these things have all shown to be productive to the survival of our species, or to the survival of nationality.

It would help if you could link or put in some quotes, the important wording to show more on the mutations, such as left-handedness and irreligion. Of course, the magazine you said you read yesterday, would be the one to have the name of the magazine and the issue it was in. 

I could search it yes, but it would help both you and me, if I could have it here, to back up your points, instead of wasting time looking for something, that might take longer. Plus, it would give me a better idea how is it, those things are considered mutations. 

Quote

I guess, in gene research, that if your are enforced to act a certain way, then behavior can actually modify your genes and you can pass those down.

In what way does behavior modify the genes? 

 

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10 hours ago, Guyver said:

  

  The time frame of the prophesy is given in the opening verse and restated several times throughout.  The prophesied events did not occur, and the world did not end....therefore it is a false prophecy.  If you need me to get more specific and offer more "proof" let me know and I will be happy to do so.  

 Revelation 1:1 does not give a specific time frame for when the tribulation will start. It just states that it will happen some time in the near future. Also, Revelation was written after the destruction of Israel in 70A.D. Therefore the tribulation could not of happened if Israel was not a nation. Israel did however become a nation once again in 1948, Ezekiel 37. Matthew 24:32-34 states that the generation from 1948 will not pass away before the 2nd coming of Christ. Next year will be 70 years since Israel has became a nation again. It's safe to say that that generation is almost up. And if it's almost up then the tribulation is soon to start. Daniel 9:27 states that the tribulation officially starts when the antichrist creates a seven year peace treaty between Israel and it's enemy's.

 Revelation is not a false prophecy. You just have to learn context of scripture and how to understand the times and seasons of bible prophecy. When you do this, bible prophecy will become much easier to understand. 

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On 02/09/2017 at 9:26 PM, DieChecker said:

1. Would you take or receive the mark of the beast six hundred three score and six in your right hand or forehead?

  • Yes             5
  • No              25
I find it interesting that only 1/6th of people who responded would accept the "mark", if given the option. Could be that 5/6th of those who answered are religious. Might just be the ratio of people who visit the religion threads. Anyway, it gives me hope that any tyrannical abuse of economic power in the future will be resisted.

I remember reading that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark at all. it signifies a way of thinking(  the head) and a way of acting (the right hand) 

Having a mark tattooed on your body has nothing to do with  salvation, but obeying the laws of god, does.  (within the christian narrative)

Thus, a person marked by the beast is one who neither believes in the commandments, nor follows them, in their life.

 Some would argue this especially means keeping the seventh day sabbath, which is  the mark of god's covenant with his people, and the central tenet and commandment of the ten.

Nothing material can drive a division between god and man, but not following him with your heart and body does this  itself.  The laws are not as important (in physical terms)  as what they signify, which is god's love for us. Our obedience to them signifies, in return, our love for him  The laws were made from love, for the benefit of man and need to be obeyed, not from fear, or legalism, or even dutiful obedience to a father,  but out of LOVE for the one who gave them to us. 

 

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On 03/09/2017 at 5:00 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Or maybe the time will never come because it is something that was made up almost 2000 years ago ?

The time is here with us. The rule already applies. Love god and follow his commandments and have eternal life, or   do not do so, and die the second death of body and consciousness.

Of course this is a belief and a faith based thing. But it is what the bible is really talking about, and is repeated time and time again, from genesis to revelation  Humans have free will . We know good from evil. We can chose good/evil ; spiritual well being/material well being, god /not god and so on.  The decsions we make have real consequnces for us     

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On 03/09/2017 at 11:39 AM, Scudbuster said:

They were hounding you at a county fair type venue? Holy cow, haven't seen that.

 I still - on occasion - get them coming to my house, and I live in the country.

I hate it when they push the young kids out in front to make the initial contact and the adult sorta hangs back....cheap tactics. 

Na That is done as training for  the children. Develop confidence, overcome fear etc. :) 

My tip? Take the child gently by the shoulder, usher it  inside, smiling sweetly at the parents, and saying something like, 'Oh have i got  nice surprise for you.  " then close the door behind you,  and wait  for the knocking to start, quickly followed by  the screaming.

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15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I never quite got that switching hands thing. If someone actually believed a kid was Satan spawn, and they could tell this because he was left-handed...what difference would it make to force the kid to switch hands? 

Was it just an opportunity to be mean to what they perceived as Satan spawn? Or was there some sort of transformation that was supposed to take place through the switching of the hands?

In reality it wasn't religious at all, at least  in secular/govt schools. It was simply a requirement of orthodoxy in govt schools that all students were the same, and had to be treated the same

 ALLowing a child to write left handed would have been allowing it to demonstrate an unacceptable level of difference and independence I mean these were the days where everyone had to dress the same (only black polished shoes were allowed )  have the same haircut (not too short and not too long   speak the same,  have the same customs beliefs and manners, eg a child could be caned for not addressing a teacher as MR or sir  

 A child was given a specific pencil  (or in earlier times chalk and a slate) to begin writing with and only allowed to use pen and ink when it was able to write properly Using pen and ink  (and writing with chalk on a slate ) complicated left handed writers like my brother because in writing their arm would smudge the page   as they wrote the next line while the one above was still wet (try writing left handed  and you will see what I mean)

Desks including ink wells were designed for right hand users  Books and binders have the edge on the left,  (simply because most humans are right handed) making it difficult for a left hander to write  as their hand drags on the edge or binding  If you are using  arabic or one of the languages which writes from right to left, however, this is not a problem

The end result, aimed for   in all things,  was orthodoxy  and obedience to authority;  plus schools in general, from the time free and compulsory education was introduced  were training grounds for industry and factories, and there was no accommodation in these for either men or women who used their left hand.

 My brother, educated  in the sixties in a govt school in Australia, and forced to write right handed as a lefty,  never learned to write neatly, but it did make him ambidextrous, which helped him in life as a tradesman. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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2 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 Revelation 1:1 does not give a specific time frame for when the tribulation will start. It just states that it will happen some time in the near future.

The near future is a timeframe.  

Quote

Also, Revelation was written after the destruction of Israel in 70A.D. Therefore the tribulation could not of happened if Israel was not a nation. Israel did however become a nation once again in 1948, Ezekiel 37. Matthew 24:32-34 states that the generation from 1948 will not pass away before the 2nd coming of Christ. Next year will be 70 years since Israel has became a nation again. It's safe to say that that generation is almost up. And if it's almost up then the tribulation is soon to start. Daniel 9:27 states that the tribulation officially starts when the antichrist creates a seven year peace treaty between Israel and it's enemy's.

How is the antichrist supposed to erect the abomination of desolation if there is no temple to defile?  The tribulation isn't happening next year as there is no temple, and no sacrifices to suspend.  

Quote

Revelation is not a false prophecy. You just have to learn context of scripture and how to understand the times and seasons of bible prophecy. When you do this, bible prophecy will become much easier to understand.

Revelation is a false prophecy because the end of the world didn't happen in the timeframe of the immediate future of its writing.  That those events were expected in that immediate timeframe is supported by several other scriptures, most notably 1 John 2:18.

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1 minute ago, Guyver said:

Revelation is a false prophecy because the end of the world didn't happen in the timeframe of the immediate future of its writing.  That those events were expected in that immediate timeframe is supported by several other scriptures, most notably 1 John 2:18.

Time, in the bible, is a bit like time in the Tardis. :) 

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1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Time, in the bible, is a bit like time in the Tardis. :) 

No, it isn't.  People like to make it that way because it suits their preconceived religious opinions.  Which is odd, because Daniel's Seventy Weeks Prophecy is anything but vague the way that Christians interpret it.  

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19 minutes ago, Guyver said:

No, it isn't.  People like to make it that way because it suits their preconceived religious opinions.  Which is odd, because Daniel's Seventy Weeks Prophecy is anything but vague the way that Christians interpret it.  

It depends Are you saying that the WRITERS of the bible never used time in any way, except the normal form we are all familiar with and did not use it symbolically for their own religious or spiritual purposes?

That somehow modern christians have just made up a coded form of time by which to interpret the bible I am not so certain of this I think the writers probably did use a coded c=version of time for significant religious events and purposes.

One other problem is that lack of commas in greek writing and also the way ancient words have changed in meaning over time this has allowed for at LEAST considerable real confusion about what was meant by several time critical  statements  Eg  "I say to you, today, that you will be with me in heaven."   is very different to,  "I  say to you, today you will be with me in heaven."

Hebrew grammar, and its expression of time within grammar, is significantly different to both greek and english,  also complicating the translation of hebrew ,     

Both jewish and christian scholars interpret  daniels prophecy using the one day equals one year  concept   This appears to have been familiar to the pre christian  jews and certainly to  reasonably ealry christians 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-year_principle

  1. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

Personally I don't think there is any way to predict  any theoretical end time  it will come as a thief in the  night if it comes as all, but its occurrence is actually up to how humans treat each other and our world Only WE have the power to destroy ourselves and our world. Not god  

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46 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It depends Are you saying that the WRITERS of the bible never used time in any way, except the normal form we are all familiar with and did not use it symbolically for their own religious or spiritual purposes?

Of course not.  I've been clear on what I've been saying.  

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3 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Of course not.  I've been clear on what I've been saying.  

Then i dont get you.  If the WRITERS used a coded form of time, then a reader needs to know and interpret, or allow for, that code, in order to understand what the writer meant. 

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The fact is that the bible writers, whomever they may have been were incorrect about the end of the world.  This is a fact, based on clear and undeniable language.  People don't like facts which contradict their beliefs.  This is a form of cognitive bias.  I don't really care what anyone wants to believe, but I am going to state the truth, based on facts....as I see it.  

Revelation and John's first epistle are not the only places where you can find the bible predicting the immediate or very near future end of the world.  But, this would only come with much study, or someone points it out to you. I'll give you 1 Corinthians 7:29 as one example.

In any event, another very significant fact that should not be overlooked is the fact that the Roman destruction of the temple in Jerusalem is not covered in the bible.  If the bible was not completed until 90 AD with the Revelation as people believe, then it certainly should have been as it's kind of a REALLY BIG DEAL.  The only place it's addressed is in Jesus' prophecy about its destruction which presumably occurred nearly 40 years before the fact.  In fact, from all the ancient Christian writings that I have personally viewed, it's not mentioned at all.  It is covered in detail in Josephus writings - not the same thing as he was no Christian.  

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3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Then i dont get you.  If the WRITERS used a coded form of time, then a reader needs to know and interpret, or allow for, that code, in order to understand what the writer meant. 

No.  There is no coded time.  There's language convention.  Metaphor, parable, simile, poetic, all forms of language.  There's no unified code in the bible whatsoever.  If you and others think that Daniels prophecy represents coded time,  that's fine. It doesn't mean there's "special time" that applies to all prophecy.  That passage about time being like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to the Lord is simply an applied simile that indicates God is outside of time.  It doesn't mean theres a "spiritual" time code.

And even if it did.....which it doesn't - then the verse in 1 John 2 that I quoted which claims that it was the last hour represented 41.67 years from the time of the writing of that passage.  1000/24 = 41.67  That would place the end of the world, or rather the beginning of it at around 130 AD/CE.  

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2 hours ago, Guyver said:

The fact is that the bible writers, whomever they may have been were incorrect about the end of the world.    

 The writers of the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they are correct because God had shown them what to write. This includes Revelation. 

 1000 years is as a day as a day is a thousand years to the Lord.... God created the heavens and the earth in six days. This is alluding to the six thousand years of human government. On the seventh day God rested. This is alluding to the thousand year reign of Christ. Christ came to earth at the end of the first four thousand years of human government. Israel was not a nation for the last two thousand years until 1948. Prophetically speaking about the nation of Israel, Hosea 6:2 says, "After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His sight". The last two thousand years(two days) have been known as the age of grace, a given amount of time for the Gentiles to have an opportunity to come to Christ. After all this is why Christ died on the cross, to save the world. The fact that Israel has become a nation once again just goes to show you that the age of grace is almost up, and the fullness of the Gentiles(Romans 11:25) is about come in. Then the 70th week of Daniel, also known as the tribulation will begin. When Christ returns at the end of the tribulation and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives the thousand year reign(the third day spoken of in Hosea 6:2) will begin.

As far as everything else you have said on this page(because I have not read the first 17 pages) I disagree with. It seems to me that you are only leaning on your own understanding. I would suggest that you do your best to understand the "context" of whatever passage you are reading at that time. This will truly help you to understand the simplicity of the bible and what is being said.

 

Edited by Ogbin
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3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

Personally I don't think there is any way to predict  any theoretical end time  

We are though to know the times and seasons. Remember in Matthew when Jesus called the people hypocrites for knowing the signs of the weather, but not of the signs of the times concerning his appearing. the same applies to His second coming.

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2 hours ago, Guyver said:

The fact is that the bible writers, whomever they may have been were incorrect about the end of the world.  This is a fact, based on clear and undeniable language.  People don't like facts which contradict their beliefs.  This is a form of cognitive bias.  I don't really care what anyone wants to believe, but I am going to state the truth, based on facts....as I see it.  

Revelation and John's first epistle are not the only places where you can find the bible predicting the immediate or very near future end of the world.  But, this would only come with much study, or someone points it out to you. I'll give you 1 Corinthians 7:29 as one example.

In any event, another very significant fact that should not be overlooked is the fact that the Roman destruction of the temple in Jerusalem is not covered in the bible.  If the bible was not completed until 90 AD with the Revelation as people believe, then it certainly should have been as it's kind of a REALLY BIG DEAL.  The only place it's addressed is in Jesus' prophecy about its destruction which presumably occurred nearly 40 years before the fact.  In fact, from all the ancient Christian writings that I have personally viewed, it's not mentioned at all.  It is covered in detail in Josephus writings - not the same thing as he was no Christian.  

Well Naturally if the world didn't end, then a person has two choices. Discard the entire prophecy OR re look at it and try to reinterpret it.

And i mean, who is going to discard it?  It's prophecy NO ONE EVER discards prophecy :) 

Personally, I   dont think revelations was meant to be literal, any,more than genesis was meant to be literal. Both are allegories The first about how the world began and the second about how the world might end .

In my mind, men have only just achieved the abilty to destroy themselves and their world, and thus revelation has only just become physically possible.

It is not a story about god destroying this world but about how the choices of mankind could destroy it .

It is  also a story for the individual as genesis was a moral story for the individual Live a life of spiritual wisdom connected to god and your life will be a good one. Live a life of spiritual foolishness and ultimately this will kill you as an individual.

Three of the gospels  and a lot of paul's writings occurred before the destruction of the temple and so didn't cover it  By 90 AD christianity was pretty much a pauline form for gentiles and I am not sure how significant the destruction of a jewish temple would have been  to them by then The logical reason for it not to be discussed in revelations is that this also was written prior to the fall of the temple I dont have much interest in this but it seems possible that two versions of revelations were written one a decade or so earlier than the other  

First, if the apostle John were indeed writing in AD 95—long after the destruction of the temple— it seems incredible that he would make no mention whatsoever of the most apocalyptic event in Jewish history—the demolition of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple at the hands of Titus. I

http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/was-revelation-written-before-or-after-the-destruction-of-the-temple-in-ad-70/

A counter argument is thus for those who see revelations applying to a  later date .

First, if John wrote this work near A.D. 96, there would be little need to focus upon the destruction of Jerusalem since the lessons of that catastrophe would have been well learned in the preceding quarter of a century.

However, it must be noted that some scholars see a veiled reference to Jerusalem’s destruction in 11:8, where “the great city,” in which the Savior was crucified (Jerusalem), is called Sodom—not merely because of wickedness, but due to the fact that it was a destroyed city of evil (Zahn 1973, 306).

Second, the contention that the literal city and temple were still standing, based upon chapter eleven, ignores the express symbolic nature of the narrative. Salmon says that it is:

difficult to understand how anyone could have imagined that the vision represents the temple as still standing. For the whole scene is laid in heaven, and the temple that is measured is the heavenly temple (11:19; 15:5). We have only to compare this vision with the parallel vision of a measuring-reed seen by Ezekiel (ch. 40), in which the prophet is commanded to measure—surely not the city which it is stated had been demolished fourteen years previously, but the city of the future seen by the prophet in vision (1904, 238).

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written

 

like i said, personally it is irrelevant to me. First i am not a biblical literalist and second i dont think revelation is a  specific warning about destruction by god but a generalised warning to humanity  about the natural consequences if mankind continues ot live the life he currently lives.( selfish materialistic and non spiritual)  This ties it back to the same warning allegory from the book of genesis about how the separation mankind from the spiritual,  led to our disconnection from god and our fall from well being. 

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1 hour ago, Ogbin said:

We are though to know the times and seasons. Remember in Matthew when Jesus called the people hypocrites for knowing the signs of the weather, but not of the signs of the times concerning his appearing. the same applies to His second coming.

History has shown us incapable of correctly interpreting these signs and i believe we continue to misread them The moral of both stories is that, because we cannot know we MUST be always be prepared. Not wait until warings or seasons or portents come upon us.

I think this is a common and foolish mistake The thief may come at any time, the end in any season, even one which seems filled with hope.  Was christ speaking of his appearance as messiah or of his second coming?  

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3 hours ago, Guyver said:

No.  There is no coded time.  There's language convention.  Metaphor, parable, simile, poetic, all forms of language.  There's no unified code in the bible whatsoever.  If you and others think that Daniels prophecy represents coded time,  that's fine. It doesn't mean there's "special time" that applies to all prophecy.  That passage about time being like a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to the Lord is simply an applied simile that indicates God is outside of time.  It doesn't mean theres a "spiritual" time code.

And even if it did.....which it doesn't - then the verse in 1 John 2 that I quoted which claims that it was the last hour represented 41.67 years from the time of the writing of that passage.  1000/24 = 41.67  That would place the end of the world, or rather the beginning of it at around 130 AD/CE.  

I didnt mean a uniform code i meant what you describe, that language is used in a coded form, and time is often not exactly what is stated.

 Not sure that i have an opinion on daniel Ive read and studied it a lot many years ago along with revelation  It is clear that the writer of revelations intended it as a guided tour through the OT, deliberately  connecting it with many points from  the OT and referencing them  It was like a precis summary of many of the important points from the OT but reinterpreting them into what was then modern times. It is, particularly, deliberately connected to daniel, and the prophecies of daniel 

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8 hours ago, Ogbin said:

 The writers of the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they are correct because God had shown them what to write. This includes Revelation. 

This is an assumption.  Since that they said were incorrect, then you'd have to admit that God makes mistakes.  I don't believe that but I guess you might.

Quote

 1000 years is as a day as a day is a thousand years to the Lord.... God created the heavens and the earth in six days. This is alluding to the six thousand years of human government. On the seventh day God rested. This is alluding to the thousand year reign of Christ. Christ came to earth at the end of the first four thousand years of human government. Israel was not a nation for the last two thousand years until 1948.

  This is all just your own interpretation of these ancient writings, based on whatever your religious influences are.  With a thousand other people like you considering the same passages, you may end up with a thousand different interpretations.  This is an unreliable method for understanding truth because it means the truth is whatever you consider it to be.  

Quote

 Prophetically speaking about the nation of Israel, Hosea 6:2 says, "After two days He will revive us; on the third day He will raise us up, that we may live in His sight". The last two thousand years(two days) have been known as the age of grace, a given amount of time for the Gentiles to have an opportunity to come to Christ. After all this is why Christ died on the cross, to save the world. The fact that Israel has become a nation once again just goes to show you that the age of grace is almost up, and the fullness of the Gentiles(Romans 11:25) is about come in. Then the 70th week of Daniel, also known as the tribulation will begin. When Christ returns at the end of the tribulation and sets His feet on the Mount of Olives the thousand year reign(the third day spoken of in Hosea 6:2) will begin.

OK.  

Quote

As far as everything else you have said on this page(because I have not read the first 17 pages) I disagree with. It seems to me that you are only leaning on your own understanding. I would suggest that you do your best to understand the "context" of whatever passage you are reading at that time. This will truly help you to understand the simplicity of the bible and what is being said.

Of course I'm relying on my own understanding of things, that's what everyone does.  What the heck is wrong with that?  Have you ever read Proverbs?  The bible commends the searching out of a matter and the embracing of truth.  Not just there, but in many places, the value of wisdom is emphasized.  

PS.  If you were to view the bible in simplicity; then you wouldn't disagree with everything I'm saying.  I'm just going off the plain text.  If the bible or any books tells me that we will soon suffer the cataclysmic devastation of worldwide suffering and death, and I live my whole lifetime never seeing it happen, then I just got ripped.  

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8 hours ago, Ogbin said:

We are though to know the times and seasons. Remember in Matthew when Jesus called the people hypocrites for knowing the signs of the weather, but not of the signs of the times concerning his appearing. the same applies to His second coming.

Newsflash; sarcasm alert.  How in the world could there be any end times without a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem offering a daily sacrifice of butchered animals?  I mean, sheez.  If you're going with the bible, then you have to go with bible and there's no denying that part.  

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7 hours ago, Guyver said:

  

PS.  If you were to view the bible in simplicity; then you wouldn't disagree with everything I'm saying.  

 Ya actually, I would if what you are saying is wrong...

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7 hours ago, Guyver said:

Newsflash; sarcasm alert.  How in the world could there be any end times without a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem offering a daily sacrifice of butchered animals?

 Newsflash; Reality check. Israel not only has everything they need to adorn the temple, they also have Priests trained for the first time in two thousand to take care of temple operations. They are just waiting for the right time and place to build the temple without causing a war.

 

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1 hour ago, Ogbin said:

 Newsflash; Reality check. Israel not only has everything they need to adorn the temple, they also have Priests trained for the first time in two thousand to take care of temple operations. They are just waiting for the right time and place to build the temple without causing a war.

 

There is no Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.  It was destroyed by the Romans two thousand years ago and it hasn't been rebuilt.  What has been built very near by is an Islamic shrine called the Dome of the Rock.  Jewish temple - Muslim shrine - not the same things.  

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