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markdohle

An atheist scholar viewpoint on Jesus

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eight bits

DC

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Though, I suspect, even if I found a mountain of quotes, you will still dispute the finding.... because you don't want it to be true??

It probably is true. The majority of people (Muslims and Christians) profess a commitment to a real historical Jesus, so there must be subpopulations within which a majority follows suit. My objection is not to dispute its truth, but to deny its relevance.

As to what I want: I too "find" that it is "more likely than not" that there was a real historical Jesus. Why wouldn't I want the majority of any group of honest, law-abiding folks to agree with me? Again, the problem is relevance.

The situation in our discussion is this: we have discussed "New Testament scholars" holding an opinion about Jesus. New Testament scholars are "Jesus experts" (there are Muslim Jesus experts, but since Jesus is such a relatively minor character in the Koran, it is nearly impossible for there to be many scholars of any religion specializing in Jesus who aren't also NT scholars.)

If you're going to look something up, then find out what the Wiki hive mind meant by the term "Near East historian." It is not self-explanatory, nor is its relationship to Jesus obvious (much Near East history isn't about the First Century, and much of the Near East isn't Palestine).

If it should turn out that there is some sizeable group of scholars whose viewpoint we haven't already discussed, then maybe we should. If not, then better for us to move on to something else.

On a point arising

I hadn't previously noticed this in your exchange with psyche:

Quote

And like 8-bits said, people were writing about it just a decade or less after Jesus died.

I didn't say that.

We have no writing from within a decade of Pliate's term. Paul wrote within two decades of his own conversion, but he wrote only a few surviving words that might bear on whether Jesus had any earthly career at all. The earliest survivng writing that unambiguously portrays Jesus as a natural person is Mark, which is usually dated three to five decades after the story it tells. The earliest extant mention by a non-Christian comes about six to eight decades after the events told by Mark.

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Stubbly_Dooright
22 hours ago, DieChecker said:
On 6/20/2017 at 0:02 AM, DieChecker said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Looks like there is plenty of scholarship to support Jesus probably existed to me....

I did already post this wiki link which said...

Quote

Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is more probable than not,[4][5][6][7][nb 1][nb 2][nb 3][nb 4] although they differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the details of his life that have been described in the gospels.[nb 5][13][nb 6][15]:168–173 While scholars have criticized Jesus scholarship for religious bias and lack of methodological soundness,[nb 7] with very few exceptions such critics generally do support the historicity of Jesus and reject the Christ myth theory that Jesus never existed.[17][nb 8][19][20][21]

If the wiki page is wrong... Please go log on and edit it to be correct. It appears that the greater majority of scholars agree that the majority of scholars agree that Jesus probably was real.

I suppose it may hinge on what individual scholars consider evidence? You (8-bits) may not consider something evidence which others definitely do.

But, is it evidence? Granted, scholarships are applied to such studies, and I would think some form of seriousness to it. But, what I can gather though, that it's on belief, reconstructions of what his life was, and I wonder how much of that is changed with new 'evidence'? Just me reflecting on this. Other than the written work, (which I would think would be good records of the time), are there other types of 'evidences' of his possible existence? 

I don't think this as something not to be taken seriously, and if it's a study, it's a study. And I still wonder on how a professional who studies what ever subject is considered in it's seriousness. 

Though I wonder, and I hope you forgive me 8bits, but what if a lack of seeing someone as professional in something not 'yet' showing evidences, is shutting off some in discovering something that could be there? Wasn't varying elements of science like that? 

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
22 hours ago, eight bits said:

DC

How does "New Testament Scholars" expand the population beyond those whom we  have already discussed, "Jesus experts?" What proportion of "NTS and NEH" are the already discussed NTS? That is, what is the upper bound on how much adding "Near Eastern historians" expands the population beyond those whom we have already discussed?

If we're looking at predominantly the same population, then we aren't going to change the outcome.

OK, so when I have time, I'll go look up the 7 or 8 references that wikipedia uses to support that claim. Then I will come back and report if it was only Religious scholars, or History scholars who think Jesus probably was real. Though, I suspect, even if I found a mountain of quotes, you will still dispute the finding.... because you don't want it to be true??

Though, is Wikipedia that reliable? I enjoy the site, and I do link if I need to. I also link other sites too along with it. I kind of look at like IMDB to see how many times a celebrity has been married. ;) There was a time a particular actor was listed as previously married to another actress, before his current wife, and that wasn't true. I remember it took some time to correct it. *shrugs* I saw that with wikipedia and Lady Gaga, though that took quickly to correct, since she mentioned it on a late night talk show. 

Are there other sites with the same info for this? 

 

9 hours ago, psyche101 said:
On 6/22/2017 at 7:16 AM, DieChecker said:

Because those hopes and dreams originated from someone. And like 8-bits said, people were writing about it just a decade or less after Jesus died. If one can't directly be an expert on the person of Jesus, then one Can be an expert on the environment Jesus would have lived in. And such people Also say that Jesus being a person is the most likely option.

But are they not still simply hopes and dreams? Even today with cameras and Millions of witnesses not to mention people outright claiming responsibility we still see opposing viewpoints on the bleeding obvious such as 911. What we have is a mindset, and one to be expected in harder times. Even today the most impoverished places on earth are the most religious, and I can only put that down to having nothing else to fall back on. I just do not see how hopes and dreams in any way validate themselves. 

Well, it could be how those hopes and dreams are carried out. ;) Those in impoverished places, they actually may need that to just survive and not give up, in which is something they probably don't want to do. We may all should go forth and carry on, (and that we should, yes) but not everywhere, and not everyone, has the chance to achieve it as others do. There are even greater obstacles than others, right? If it's then to give up, what else is there? To me, sometimes those hopes and dreams are the bridge to carry on until they are able to achieve what they didn't think they could do. I have seen how even a group of people give up and it's not pretty. 

I say this, because this is how I look at my beliefs. I think it's something to always remember, that it's not always the only thing to latch onto, but something that helps with when dealing with the real world. I think everything is precarious, just like how a title and it's seriousness is considered. 

Though, there is the opposite of that, and as you mentioned about the 9/11 and it's obviousness ( and I'm still :( about that ) I still see 9/11 truthers  think there is more or something else. *shrugs* Some will still try, and will work hard at it to achieve their goal. I guess, like I said before, it's all in how it's carried out. :rolleyes: 

By the way, Psyche. Where the hell have you been? :o   :angry:

;)  :D ............... just kidding. Well on the angry emojii. 

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

It probably is true. The majority of people (Muslims and Christians) profess a commitment to a real historical Jesus, so there must be subpopulations within which a majority follows suit. My objection is not to dispute its truth, but to deny its relevance.

I liked your post, but this bit has me wondering though. What if everything has some form of relevance in it's study? Ok, I could be a dreamer, and I have admitted to being an idealist, but sometimes I see things that might open up to something that will have relevance. *shrugs* 

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eight bits
9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I liked your post, but this bit has me wondering though. What if everything has some form of relevance in it's study? Ok, I could be a dreamer, and I have admitted to being an idealist, but sometimes I see things that might open up to something that will have relevance. *shrugs* 

OK, you're a speculator :) . In the meantime, I don't begrudge anybody the evidence-based expertise they genuinely possess, whatever that may be, and I don't begrudge anybody their personal opinion about questions whose answers lie beyond the reach of the avaialble evidence. The issue was whether those personal opinions are themselves evidence, and they are not. They are not evidence individually, and they do not become evidence when they are legion.

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, eight bits said:
14 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I liked your post, but this bit has me wondering though. What if everything has some form of relevance in it's study? Ok, I could be a dreamer, and I have admitted to being an idealist, but sometimes I see things that might open up to something that will have relevance. *shrugs* 

OK, you're a speculator :) .

I know that!!! :D  ;)  :wacko: 

Quote

In the meantime, I don't begrudge anybody the evidence-based expertise they genuinely possess, whatever that may be, and I don't begrudge anybody their personal opinion about questions whose answers lie beyond the reach of the avaialble evidence. The issue was whether those personal opinions are themselves evidence, and they are not. They are not evidence individually, and they do not become evidence when they are legion.

Oh. Well, I agree with that. I just don't think a lot of the findings comes off as personal opinions. 

Who am I kidding? When it comes to those who study of the possibility of Jesus's existence, I get lost in all the 'written works' that the 'evidence' is coming from. So, here's the thing, when does it stop being 'speculation'?

 

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I know that!!! :D  ;)  :wacko: 

Oh. Well, I agree with that. I just don't think a lot of the findings comes off as personal opinions. 

Who am I kidding? When it comes to those who study of the possibility of Jesus's existence, I get lost in all the 'written works' that the 'evidence' is coming from. So, here's the thing, when does it stop being 'speculation'?

 

When we die.

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eight bits
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

When we die.

Or maybe not even then, eh?

 

7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So, here's the thing, when does it stop being 'speculation'?

When we find some good-quality evidence, one way or the other.

Let me throw one more observation into the mix, which is not original with me. It is sobering, though. Eusebius has a lousy reputation as a historian, in the sense of being unreliable. Some people (following Edward Gibbon's lead) also think that Eusebius was dishonest, deliberately lying to promote his church's interests. But there is another possibility: maybe as early as the Fourth Century, there was no high-quality source material still in existence for Eusebius to use when writing his Church History. Maybe the "records" and "truly true relics" of an earthly Jesus and his immediate disciples' "school days" hadn't been preserved (assuming they existed in the first place).So, Eusebius made do with what he had, mostly the Gospels and Acts.

If nothing else had been preserved even into the Fourth Century, what are the chances we're ever going to find something useful now?

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Stubbly_Dooright
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:
9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I know that!!! :D  ;)  :wacko: 

Oh. Well, I agree with that. I just don't think a lot of the findings comes off as personal opinions. 

Who am I kidding? When it comes to those who study of the possibility of Jesus's existence, I get lost in all the 'written works' that the 'evidence' is coming from. So, here's the thing, when does it stop being 'speculation'?

 

When we die.

;)  :lol:   Cute!  

Or if this is to match 8bit's response: 

1 hour ago, eight bits said:
9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So, here's the thing, when does it stop being 'speculation'?

When we find some good-quality evidence, one way or the other.

 

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Let me throw one more observation into the mix, which is not original with me. It is sobering, though. Eusebius has a lousy reputation as a historian, in the sense of being unreliable. Some people (following Edward Gibbon's lead) also think that Eusebius was dishonest, deliberately lying to promote his church's interests. But there is another possibility: maybe as early as the Fourth Century, there was no high-quality source material still in existence for Eusebius to use when writing his Church History. Maybe the "records" and "truly true relics" of an earthly Jesus and his immediate disciples' "school days" hadn't been preserved (assuming they existed in the first place).So, Eusebius made do with what he had, mostly the Gospels and Acts.

If nothing else had been preserved even into the Fourth Century, what are the chances we're ever going to find something useful now?

In which, is something that has me thinking about constantly, from time to time. The chances of finding out about something ever, that really hasn't had any evidence, or extreme lack of it, but we know of the incident by varying reasons. The existence of Jesus Christ is one example, of course. I also think of the two princes of the tower.  The missing plane: MH370. For all the good reasons, I would think, for to find out, more than likely we will never know. I wonder, is it going to set well within anyone, not knowing in this lifetime, everyone's lifetime? (Yes, 8bits, ;) , that is an interesting bit to put into the mix here.) 

So, as I know consider this, and the many positive reasons to still find out more, if all of it, of varying situations and people, does it matter what we call them? Does it keep them from being respected and and being paid attention to? If loved ones are trying to find out their missing, I would think it would matter at all, all news is something, and it wouldn't be considered a waste of time to find out. 

Ok, I'm getting a bit derailed here, sorry, and a bit dramatic too, doubly sorry. :blush: So, does someone with an actual degree in the subject, and a title shown to be respected, not get respected by some, because of the topic being not proven yet? 

I guess, this brings up something I never thought of, because of how I like varying outlets and such to get information and then compare. (I guess that could be a waste of time, I don't know) but now it seems things could get tricky in how varying people will listen or not listen to some they consider worthy sources. Well, this is good to know. :) But for me, (despite me thinking snarky and saying assinine like, 'go ahead guys, have a ball' and myself going to go jump in a lake. :o ) I would think if it's a subject that caught interest, it wouldn't matter the title, just getting as much news and info on it as much as possible. Well, yeah, sometimes that is something strange for me to say, where I have said here about a couple of times, I not really trustworthy of such places like Wikipedia, but yet I enjoy going there for info on things. Maybe it's because I don't depend on it solely. <----------- Maybe that's the key, having more than one source, and that's what makes a good researcher. ;) 

 

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psyche101
On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, it could be how those hopes and dreams are carried out. ;) Those in impoverished places, they actually may need that to just survive and not give up, in which is something they probably don't want to do. We may all should go forth and carry on, (and that we should, yes) but not everywhere, and not everyone, has the chance to achieve it as others do. 

Hey Sweetcheeks

The problem I am seeing there is how it is dividing humanity. The false impression of unity is forming groups that oppose each other, that very same hope leads to women and children bring killed for the object of worship, it gives false superiority complexes to backwards people who will kill to keep that hope alive, where religious belief is strongest and most prevalent is where we also see the pinnacles barbarity.

On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

There are even greater obstacles than others, right? If it's then to give up, what else is there? To me, sometimes those hopes and dreams are the bridge to carry on until they are able to achieve what they didn't think they could do. I have seen how even a group of people give up and it's not pretty. 

People still give up when it gets hard. Suicide rates continue to climb. Religion is not helping with modern issues. I honestly think community is the aspect that religion hijacks to disguise the unsavoury side of it. All the people who suicide every day are not being helped by religion, it is sort of like those tales of a grandma who smoke and drank till reaching over a hundred years old, stories to inspire others to follow but the real problems remain. 

On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I say this, because this is how I look at my beliefs. I think it's something to always remember, that it's not always the only thing to latch onto, but something that helps with when dealing with the real world. I think everything is precarious, just like how a title and it's seriousness is considered. 

But what I was more looking at was DC's claim that there can be fact about Jesus, I don't see how that is even possible considering the pedestal do many put him on. I cannot see how such beliefs are any more valid than the Catholic view on the ascension of Mary.

On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Though, there is the opposite of that, and as you mentioned about the 9/11 and it's obviousness ( and I'm still :( about that ) I still see 9/11 truthers  think there is more or something else. *shrugs* Some will still try, and will work hard at it to achieve their goal. I guess, like I said before, it's all in how it's carried out. :rolleyes: 

As an engineer I find furthers will say anything to push an agenda, if they had an ounce of logic and truth they would be selling facts not conspiracy theories.

On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

By the way, Psyche. Where the hell have you been? :o   :angry:

;)  :D ............... just kidding. Well on the angry emojii. 

I Have been to he'll and back sad to say.

On 2017-6-26 at 11:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I liked your post, but this bit has me wondering though. What if everything has some form of relevance in it's study? Ok, I could be a dreamer, and I have admitted to being an idealist, but sometimes I see things that might open up to something that will have relevance. *shrugs* 

I cannot see how made up things about Jesus make this world a better place. Insisting such is true is not being true to ourselves.

Lovely to hear from you mlady.

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Hammerclaw
15 hours ago, eight bits said:

Or maybe not even then, eh?

The speculation ends once we die. Either there's something else, or oblivion.

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Stubbly_Dooright
3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
On 6/26/2017 at 9:24 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, it could be how those hopes and dreams are carried out. ;) Those in impoverished places, they actually may need that to just survive and not give up, in which is something they probably don't want to do. We may all should go forth and carry on, (and that we should, yes) but not everywhere, and not everyone, has the chance to achieve it as others do. 

Hey Sweetcheeks

The problem I am seeing there is how it is dividing humanity. The false impression of unity is forming groups that oppose each other, that very same hope leads to women and children bring killed for the object of worship, it gives false superiority complexes to backwards people who will kill to keep that hope alive, where religious belief is strongest and most prevalent is where we also see the pinnacles barbarity.

Hiya Back. :wub: 

Well, I was kind of not thinking of division of humanity, when I was discussing how faith is there for people. I'm more looking at it in a more individualistic way. Though, I think you brought up a point that makes sense. And yes, I see it being there too, the division of humanity. And I feel, that can be a problem as well. 

Though, I am not disagreeing on how there seems to be barbarity in varying religious areas, I have also seen when it actually walks the talk. I think in the end, it's how it's used. If in a more grouped way, I think it can get dangerous, when you have to fall into a group thinking, and if it's a negative outlook, yeah, that can be dangerous. 

7 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

There are even greater obstacles than others, right? If it's then to give up, what else is there? To me, sometimes those hopes and dreams are the bridge to carry on until they are able to achieve what they didn't think they could do. I have seen how even a group of people give up and it's not pretty. 

People still give up when it gets hard. Suicide rates continue to climb. Religion is not helping with modern issues. I honestly think community is the aspect that religion hijacks to disguise the unsavoury side of it. All the people who suicide every day are not being helped by religion, it is sort of like those tales of a grandma who smoke and drank till reaching over a hundred years old, stories to inspire others to follow but the real problems remain. 

You're right, people still do give up when it is hard. I have been aware of it. Though, I hope you believe me, I have some have been helped with religion being their guide. And I know, you might find it hard to believe. (and I respect you seeing that and feel that you rightfully see that), but I have felt that I have experienced various 'miraculous' situations. I'm not shouting out into the world about it and feel I can see that it's not all miracles, but in a sense, the outlook tends to give some sense of positiveness and peace while dealing with life's problems. I know, everyone is different, and everyone should deal with it the way they feel is necessary. 

So in a sense, there are those not helped by religion, and then there are those who I have noticed that are helped by religion. I have seen it's not always it worked/it didn't worked end of it. 

14 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

I say this, because this is how I look at my beliefs. I think it's something to always remember, that it's not always the only thing to latch onto, but something that helps with when dealing with the real world. I think everything is precarious, just like how a title and it's seriousness is considered. 

But what I was more looking at was DC's claim that there can be fact about Jesus, I don't see how that is even possible considering the pedestal do many put him on. I cannot see how such beliefs are any more valid than the Catholic view on the ascension of Mary.

I can see your point on that. And yes, it does seem that those almost insist of his existence, when it's weighty whether he did or not. I feel he did, but that's my feeling, and even that is based on sketchy feelings. It's not something I'm trying to push onto someone else. 

In the end, I'm not sure if I can speak for them, because I don't see it as they do. 

16 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

Though, there is the opposite of that, and as you mentioned about the 9/11 and it's obviousness ( and I'm still :( about that ) I still see 9/11 truthers  think there is more or something else. *shrugs* Some will still try, and will work hard at it to achieve their goal. I guess, like I said before, it's all in how it's carried out. :rolleyes: 

As an engineer I find furthers will say anything to push an agenda, if they had an ounce of logic and truth they would be selling facts not conspiracy theories.

Yeah, I agree with that too. I am really wondering why they go through that. In fact, I'm more :angry: on the Sandy Hook  deniers and really want to know what they really after with that. That p***es me off. 

Anyways, there does seem to be an agenda, and probably egocentrically at that. 

22 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

By the way, Psyche. Where the hell have you been? :o   :angry:

;)  :D ............... just kidding. Well on the angry emojii. 

I Have been to he'll and back sad to say.

Oh dear, I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you're ok now. (((Hugs))) :wub: 

23 minutes ago, psyche101 said:
Quote

I liked your post, but this bit has me wondering though. What if everything has some form of relevance in it's study? Ok, I could be a dreamer, and I have admitted to being an idealist, but sometimes I see things that might open up to something that will have relevance. *shrugs* 

I cannot see how made up things about Jesus make this world a better place. Insisting such is true is not being true to ourselves.

Well, that I agree. I'm just more talking about the relevance of the search, and not the result. Yes, the result should always be true. 

Quote

Lovely to hear from you mlady.

And to see you back here and to hear from you as well. *Hugs* my friend. :)  

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eight bits

Hammer

Quote

The speculation ends once we die. Either there's something else, or oblivion.

While "oblivion" would prevent further speculation by the deceased, "something else" wouldn't necessarily resolve the problem, either.

Perhaps dead people are reborn to start over again in this world. Unless there's been some improvement in the evidentiary situation while we were "away," our reborn selves might encounter the same problem all over again.

Even within the Christianities, perhaps such information is denied to the non-saved dead as part of their comprehensive eternal punishment program. Speculation may continue forever for us. That torment has a poetic injustice, as Christian hells so often do.

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third_eye

Too much emphasis on what might be 'possibly' true while ignoring everything that is proven to be outright 'false' leads nowhere and helps none ...

~

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Stubbly_Dooright
5 hours ago, eight bits said:

Hammer

Quote

The speculation ends once we die. Either there's something else, or oblivion.

While "oblivion" would prevent further speculation by the deceased, "something else" wouldn't necessarily resolve the problem, either.

Perhaps dead people are reborn to start over again in this world. Unless there's been some improvement in the evidentiary situation while we were "away," our reborn selves might encounter the same problem all over again.

Even within the Christianities, perhaps such information is denied to the non-saved dead as part of their comprehensive eternal punishment program. Speculation may continue forever for us. That torment has a poetic injustice, as Christian hells so often do.

Wow! I like this. In which, I often reflect on this too. My belief system makes me feel, we shouldn't know within our life times. I often wonder, if there are situations like, reincarnation, many levels in the here after, or other things, that makes me wonder how much a

5 hours ago, third_eye said:

Too much emphasis on what might be 'possibly' true while ignoring everything that is proven to be outright 'false' leads nowhere and helps none ...

~

I'm curious on how that could be? 

 

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third_eye
Just now, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I'm curious on how that could be? 

That one requires the length and breadth that is far beyond my means and capacity or capability, sister ... just on the basic tenets alone would require years to touch upon much less to dig at.

All credit and kudos to some that took up the burden and shoulder them responsibly though ...

Quote

 

~

Mary Magdalene: 5 Things You Should Know

November 21, 2014 by Gail Wallace

~

 

  • junia project link

~

:)

~

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Stubbly_Dooright
10 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That one requires the length and breadth that is far beyond my means and capacity or capability, sister ... just on the basic tenets alone would require years to touch upon much less to dig at.

All credit and kudos to some that took up the burden and shoulder them responsibly though ...

  • junia project link

~

:)

~

Well, I thought you might have at least four or five sentences that might tie up your answer, but that's ok. It sounds like it's very dragged out, that it might turn out to be understood differently with each individual, so that's ok. Thanks for replying anyways. 

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third_eye
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, I thought you might have at least four or five sentences that might tie up your answer, but that's ok. It sounds like it's very dragged out, that it might turn out to be understood differently with each individual, so that's ok. Thanks for replying anyways. 

I'm not one for major treatises but I do try my best, alas, my best is mediocre at best, best leave all that to the ones better capable than I

:yes:

~

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Stubbly_Dooright
44 minutes ago, third_eye said:

I'm not one for major treatises but I do try my best, alas, my best is mediocre at best, best leave all that to the ones better capable than I

:yes:

~

Okay...................

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Hammerclaw
11 hours ago, eight bits said:

Hammer

While "oblivion" would prevent further speculation by the deceased, "something else" wouldn't necessarily resolve the problem, either.

Perhaps dead people are reborn to start over again in this world. Unless there's been some improvement in the evidentiary situation while we were "away," our reborn selves might encounter the same problem all over again.

Even within the Christianities, perhaps such information is denied to the non-saved dead as part of their comprehensive eternal punishment program. Speculation may continue forever for us. That torment has a poetic injustice, as Christian hells so often do.

Any confirmation of existence after death ends the speculation for the individual. I choose Faith that there is, having nothing to lose. At the end of your life, all science has to offer is a grave.

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Sherapy
5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Any confirmation of existence after death ends the speculation for the individual. I choose Faith that there is, having nothing to lose. At the end of your life, all science has to offer is a grave.

Yeah, there really isn't anything to lose, it sounds as if this works for you. In the end that probably matters more. 

I really don't think about this too much, not saying I won't as time goes by.

I find your food for thought interesting, none the less.

Edited by Sherapy
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third_eye

Actually Science offers more ... well at least Physics do and does ...

~

Quote

In physics, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another.

~

Not one particle of any atom from every molecule will be dispersed in vain ...

 

Quote

 

Law of conservation of energy - NYU

www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman/adv.chem/lectures/lecture_2/node4.html
The law of conservation of energy is one of the basic laws of physics and therefore governs the microscopic motion of individual atoms in a chemical reaction.
~

Laws of Conservation - Nuclear Power

www.nuclear-power.net/laws-of-conservation/
Laws of Conservation. A conservation law states that a measurable property of an isolated physical system does not change as the system evolves over time
~.

Law of Conservation of Matter - Nuclear Power

www.nuclear-power.net/laws-of-conservation/law-of-conservation-of-matter/

The law of conservation of matter or principle of matter conservation states that the mass of an object or collection of objects never changes over time, no matter ...

 

 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, third_eye said:

Actually Science offers more ... well at least Physics do and does ...

~

~

Not one particle of any atom from every molecule will be dispersed in vain ...

 

 

Yes, that will all look nice, carved on your headstone. 

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psyche101
23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Hiya Back. :wub: 

:st

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, I was kind of not thinking of division of humanity, when I was discussing how faith is there for people. I'm more looking at it in a more individualistic way. Though, I think you brought up a point that makes sense. And yes, I see it being there too, the division of humanity. And I feel, that can be a problem as well. 

It's that individual aspect that tends to bias the outlook I find. Like the grandma who is 110 and still drinking and smoking. It does not mean drinking and smoking offers longevity, nor does religion as Walkers instance that it did offered otherwise. Religion is pretending to help when the actual working factor here is community. I feel this is illustrated when we see one side of faith helping and another terrorising. Sharing the burden is what actually helps, not the belief itself.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Though, I am not disagreeing on how there seems to be barbarity in varying religious areas, I have also seen when it actually walks the talk. I think in the end, it's how it's used. If in a more grouped way, I think it can get dangerous, when you have to fall into a group thinking, and if it's a negative outlook, yeah, that can be dangerous. 

It is not walking the walk in Wahabbi communities or Westboro, if it really was some sort of God making these perceptions play out then it would have to be universal according the the ascribed nature of God and Jesus. What I am seeing is groups of people telling each other how to live. If you tow the line in such a community then no doubt one will be accepted but once one steps outside that circle, things usually get nasty which defies the original concept of a loving God. In this way it set more up to fail than it helps. Fundamentalists are the most devout to the word of God yet often make the very worst kind of people. If we take it with a grain of salt, is that not admitting the concept is man made?

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

You're right, people still do give up when it is hard. I have been aware of it. Though, I hope you believe me, I have some have been helped with religion being their guide. And I know, you might find it hard to believe. (and I respect you seeing that and feel that you rightfully see that), but I have felt that I have experienced various 'miraculous' situations. I'm not shouting out into the world about it and feel I can see that it's not all miracles, but in a sense, the outlook tends to give some sense of positiveness and peace while dealing with life's problems. I know, everyone is different, and everyone should deal with it the way they feel is necessary. 

Again the grandma scenario though.

I have recently been involved with some people who were saved from suicide, people, not God, are the ones to thank for many lives. Religion is what have many of these people a reason to kill themselves. I saw a thread here about a year ago.on some kid who suicided because of his religious stance on finding out he was gay. All these people who die because if the concept don't get a mention otherwise I am quite sure that we would not hear about so many being saved by religion if we had a realistic grasp on how many it sends to an early grave.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

So in a sense, there are those not helped by religion, and then there are those who I have noticed that are helped by religion. I have seen it's not always it worked/it didn't worked end of it. 

I do feel it is community not religion. Religion hijacked the outcome by putting an authority figure in there.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I can see your point on that. And yes, it does seem that those almost insist of his existence, when it's weighty whether he did or not. I feel he did, but that's my feeling, and even that is based on sketchy feelings. It's not something I'm trying to push onto someone else. 

I just feel such claims should provide real validation of the claims or cease and desist. It's a false picture designed to benefit faith based organisations. 

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

In the end, I'm not sure if I can speak for them, because I don't see it as they do. 

I would like to see them speak for themselves. If there is proof, well and good, of we are just speaking about made up feel good tall tales then I feel that should be exhibited as well.

I fell while people are entitled to their own opinions,they are not entitled to their own facts, everyone owns fact.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yeah, I agree with that too. I am really wondering why they go through that. In fact, I'm more :angry: on the Sandy Hook  deniers and really want to know what they really after with that. That p***es me off. 

Anyways, there does seem to be an agenda, and probably egocentrically at that. 

Exactly, if furthers could prove any of the BS they spread, it would not be just a whacky claim, it would be history. They are attention seekers of the worst kind.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Oh dear, I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you're ok now. (((Hugs))) :wub: 

Getting there. Been a very tough time but I do see a light at the end of the tunnel, wether that is a train or not remains 's to be seen. Not had an awesome year so far.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, that I agree. I'm just more talking about the relevance of the search, and not the result. Yes, the result should always be true. 

That's all I'm about really, had enough.Of BS.to see the crest.Of my.Life out already.

23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

And to see you back here and to hear from you as well. *Hugs* my friend. :)  

Miss you all, been lurking from time to time hope to see more of you all.

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psyche101

Sorry for the spelling I.am on a phone

It REALLY seems to like full.stops....... too..........

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Sorry for the spelling I.am on a phone

It REALLY seems to like full.stops....... too..........

There's a guy in your neighborhood I think you'd get a kick out of. He has his own gig on YouTube and calls it Top hats and Champagne. He's a riot! (Off topic, I know, but you and I have already been there and done that.)

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DieChecker
On 6/25/2017 at 8:48 PM, psyche101 said:

But are they not still simply hopes and dreams? Even today with cameras and Millions of witnesses not to mention people outright claiming responsibility we still see opposing viewpoints on the bleeding obvious such as 911. What we have is a mindset, and one to be expected in harder times. Even today the most impoverished places on earth are the most religious, and I can only put that down to having nothing else to fall back on. I just do not see how hopes and dreams in any way validate themselves. 

Nothing you said here invalidates that most experts on the time period, secular or otherwise, think that Jesus was more then likely real.

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