Was the Bible written earlier than thought?

[Torchwood]

On 2017-6-24 at 4:40 AM, kmt_sesh said:

 

As a loyal member of the Cabal, I can attest that we have a vested interest in keeping "THE TRUTH" from the lowly masses.

Yup, just before the bloke (the mayor, archbishop or Simon Cowell or whoever it was) hands over the scroll with the little bit of ribbon you have to swear to perpetuate only the agreed on version of history.  Or at least thats how it happened to me.  Was a bit of a blur to be honest...

Anyway, the way I see it then according to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion most of the stuff that actually ended up in the Bible actually predates it by an astonishing amount- the flood myth for e.g could have been doing the rounds for anything up to 2500-3000 years before that or even longer- I'm not aware off the top of my head of any reason why it couldn't date back much further, to the last Ice age. All that really changes are the names...

I could therefore easily envisage a problem with dating the bible- if we take any given story in it and cross check the dates of known events within it (like comets passing, solar eclipses, volcanoes erupting etc) then we know it can't have been written before those events happened, but that doesn't mean it was written straight after either and the Terminus Ante Quem (the last possible date it could have been written ) could be a while after the earliest possible date.

So obviously the answer is "possibly". 

[Jarocal]

17 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

You're right, of course. Our own museum has a large collection of Peruvian mummies. They're rarely displayed but I enjoy them.

But let's be honest. Those South Americans are unlikely to have intended mummification, which was a byproduct of the cold and arid environment in which those folks were buried. And natural mummification—the product of environment—is arguably the case with most mummies around the world. The book is out on some of those Chinese mummies, as I understand it. Mummies like Lady Dei are amazing in their preservation but there's a lot of debate over whether preservation was even a goal by the people who buried them.

Egyptian mummies, on the other hand, were purpose-made. They rock!

So your saying rather than take advantage of the natural processes available to them to complete the process of mummification as occurred in Asia and South America the Egyptians decided to waste valuable resources to accomplish the same thing. 

Remind me again why you find this failed civilization more interesting than Eastern Asia or Pre-Columbian Americas again?

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

So your saying rather than take advantage of the natural processes available to them to complete the process of mummification as occurred in Asia and South America the Egyptians decided to waste valuable resources to accomplish the same thing. 

Remind me again why you find this failed civilization more interesting than Eastern Asia or Pre-Columbian Americas again?

Bah! I prefer a winner, the longest-lasting civilization in human history. Not a bunch of upstart, here-and-gone pretenders!

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Torchwood said:

Yup, just before the bloke (the mayor, archbishop or Simon Cowell or whoever it was) hands over the scroll with the little bit of ribbon you have to swear to perpetuate only the agreed on version of history.  Or at least thats how it happened to me.  Was a bit of a blur to be honest...

The experience was much the same for me except the scroll was presented to me by the secret Global Overlord and Dictator. I rated him because I got all black stars* on my final exams.

 

 

*Black stars are like gold stars but even cooler. Because we're the Cabal.

[Jarocal]

1 minute ago, kmt_sesh said:

Bah! I prefer a winner, the longest-lasting civilization in human history. Not a bunch of upstart, here-and-gone pretenders!

I would put Asia up against some limestone piling bumpkins who managed to desertify the Savannahs of North East Africa in a relatively short span of time. They had far more advances in Agriculture, chemistry, navigation, need I keep going?

[kmt_sesh]

2 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

I would put Asia up against some limestone piling bumpkins who managed to desertify the Savannahs of North East Africa in a relatively short span of time. They had far more advances in Agriculture, chemistry, navigation, need I keep going?

Oh, please, Asia didn't really even have writing until around 1800 BCE. Egypt was already ancient by then, and had even been raising livestock and planting crops long before that. By the time China was rising, Egypt was on the way out. But China's cuisine is a lot better. I'll grant you that (except for the rats. I mean, who eats rats?).

[Jarocal]

46 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Oh, please, Asia didn't really even have writing until around 1800 BCE. Egypt was already ancient by then, and had even been raising livestock and planting crops long before that. By the time China was rising, Egypt was on the way out. But China's cuisine is a lot better. I'll grant you that (except for the rats. I mean, who eats rats?).

Oh, please, Egypt's Neolithic revolution was to copy Sumerian agricultural methods (quite poorly may I add) and pillage the soil in a manner not seen again until Western Agriculture industrialized. If the Ancient Egyptians had John Deere tractors the southern border of the Sahara would probably have been around Pretoria by the time the Romans decided step in and do a better job of managing that country than anyone since the Hyksos.

I will agree with you about the rats. They are almost as unclean an animal as a cat. Fortunately our Basset Masters fend off both evils

Edited June 28, 2017 by Jarocal
Pious addendum of due reverence required

[ShadowSot]

 

[kmt_sesh]

1 hour ago, ShadowSot said:

 

No, not the 3D glasses. You don't want to watch me in 3D!

 

(Can I have some popcorn? Is there extra butter?)

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Oh, please, Egypt's Neolithic revolution was to copy Sumerian agricultural methods (quite poorly may I add) and pillage the soil in a manner not seen again until Western Agriculture industrialized. If the Ancient Egyptians had John Deere tractors the southern border of the Sahara would probably have been around Pretoria by the time the Romans decided step in and do a better job of managing that country than anyone since the Hyksos.

I will agree with you about the rats. They are almost as unclean an animal as a cat. Fortunately our Basset Masters fend off both evils

Truce, dude.

 

 

Cats rule! Cats and Egyptian mummies. And mummified Egyptian cats. And Eskimo pies.

[The Gremlin]

On 23/06/2017 at 4:53 AM, Gingitsune said:

I know so little about these peoples about that time. 

Some of the texts in the Bible are clearly taken out of Sumerian tests, like the book of Job. I read about the same story in Lorsque les dieux faisaient l'homme by Kramer and Bottéro, although the conclusion was different. When the Sumerian Job ask: "Gods, did you forget me" or something to that effect, they answer something like "oh! Indeed, sorry about that. We'll fix it now. Next time, pray more and don't forget to buy these paying dolls at the temple, we so busy up here." Or something like that, I thought it was hilarious.

There's also parts of Gilgamesh which goes like the Noah and genesis story. Although I read these back in the second millennium, my memory could be a bit rusty.

Maybe the Hebrews have taken them while in captivity in Babylon, but maybe these are two versions of an older original story. And maybe both are true. Also some of the story could come from the Canaanite tales mixed in.

if i recall correctly one of the earliest sources for the Epic Of Gilgamesh comes from text found...in the Jerusalem area : so somebody young was learning to write by copying out the text....complete with errors.

not saying it was the hebrews...but somebody living in the area was well acquainted with Mesopotamian literature...it was on the curriculum.

It maybe this earlier time of contact (1000 years + earlier) can account for at least some of the appropriation and adaption of Mesopotamian stories and religious ingredients.  

[kmt_sesh]

I hadn't heard that about Jerusalem. Do you remember a source where you might've read that? I'm not doubting you, mind you, I'm just curious. I'm not like some posters at UM who seem to think they know everything about everything (said posters shall remain nameless). I don't know everything. I am imperfect. But I'm always interested to learn more.

I've always loved the Epic of Gilgamesh and have spent a modest amount of time looking into not only its narrative but its development and history. I am far from an expert on the story, of course, but the oldest extant manuscript of which I'm aware, although in fragments, dates to around 1700 BCE and comes from Babylon. Then of course there's the famous Library of Ashurbanipal from the ruins of Nineveh and dating to the 7th century BCE (I'm more familiar with this trove than the Babylonian text).

Here's a link for the Ashurbanipal library. I know it's Wikipedia but this one looks good and I'm too lazy at the moment to do better: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Ashurbanipal

And here's a Google book that talks about the Babylonian fragments (I'd forgotten they're in Pennsylvania):

https://books.google.com/books?id=eCZRK_61adMC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq="Surpassing+All+Other+Kings"&source=bl&ots=30lL2b9-uQ&sig=dgfvXNa-070Ft-Qx49rJX-rAiE0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF4uWPj_DUAhXKwiYKHf1ECEIQ6AEIczAQ#v=onepage&q="Surpassing All Other Kings"&f=false

If you need further information, just consult our poster Hanslune. When he was a wee lad, he learned to write by copying these and other texts in his dim and smoky scribal school. Hanslune is really old. 

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

If you need further information, just consult our poster Hanslune. When he was a wee lad, he learned to write by copying these and other texts in his dim and smoky scribal school. Hanslune is really old. 

Well aged and steeped in wisdom you young whipper-snapper!

[kmt_sesh]

5 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Well aged and steeped in wisdom you young whipper-snapper!

That is why I bow to you, O master.

[The Gremlin]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I hadn't heard that about Jerusalem. Do you remember a source where you might've read that? I'm not doubting you, mind you, I'm just curious. I'm not like some posters at UM who seem to think they know everything about everything (said posters shall remain nameless). I don't know everything. I am imperfect. But I'm always interested to learn more.

I've always loved the Epic of Gilgamesh and have spent a modest amount of time looking into not only its narrative but its development and history. I am far from an expert on the story, of course, but the oldest extant manuscript of which I'm aware, although in fragments, dates to around 1700 BCE and comes from Babylon. Then of course there's the famous Library of Ashurbanipal from the ruins of Nineveh and dating to the 7th century BCE (I'm more familiar with this trove than the Babylonian text).

Here's a link for the Ashurbanipal library. I know it's Wikipedia but this one looks good and I'm too lazy at the moment to do better: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Ashurbanipal

And here's a Google book that talks about the Babylonian fragments (I'd forgotten they're in Pennsylvania):

https://books.google.com/books?id=eCZRK_61adMC&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq="Surpassing+All+Other+Kings"&source=bl&ots=30lL2b9-uQ&sig=dgfvXNa-070Ft-Qx49rJX-rAiE0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjF4uWPj_DUAhXKwiYKHf1ECEIQ6AEIczAQ#v=onepage&q="Surpassing All Other Kings"&f=false

If you need further information, just consult our poster Hanslune. When he was a wee lad, he learned to write by copying these and other texts in his dim and smoky scribal school. Hanslune is really old. 

been hunting...cant find where i passed over the information previously; but did a quick google and found that ive probably read something with a reference to this (the origin of the Megiddo tablet being probably Gezer, between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv......not the earliest fragment (as i did not recall correctly) but still very old at around 1300BC.)

http://www.academia.edu/1070693/A_Provenance_Study_of_the_Gilgamesh_Fragment_from_Megiddo 

 

[RoofGardener]

@kmt_sesh - thanks for posting the original article.. it is very interesting. 

Now, I'm writing this in a hurry, and I haven't had chance to properly take the article onboard.. but.. perhaps you can help me ? 

As I understand it, the article is only REALLY saying that literacy was more widespread (in 600BCE) than previously anticipated. 

The jump to saying "the bible may have been written earlier than thought... ) seems to be.. well... a bit of a leap ? 

Have I misunderstood this ? (probably  )

[kmt_sesh]

4 minutes ago, The Gremlin said:

been hunting...cant find where i passed over the information previously; but did a quick google and found that ive probably read something with a reference to this (the origin of the Megiddo tablet being probably Gezer, between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv......not the earliest fragment (as i did not recall correctly) but still very old at around 1300BC.)

http://www.academia.edu/1070693/A_Provenance_Study_of_the_Gilgamesh_Fragment_from_Megiddo 

 

Now that's really interesting. Thanks so much for taking the time to dig that up, because I'd forgotten about the Megiddo connection to Gilgamesh. One of the museums where I work is the Oriental Institute, which has a large Megiddo collection (but not this text, of which I'm aware) and has conducted a lot of excavations there. As a docent this is an interesting and useful factoid for me to know when I'm working in the museum, so I thank you. I've connected to the paper so I can read it. Israel Finkelstein is one of the authors. I enjoy his work.

[The Gremlin]

2 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Now that's really interesting. Thanks so much for taking the time to dig that up, because I'd forgotten about the Megiddo connection to Gilgamesh. One of the museums where I work is the Oriental Institute, which has a large Megiddo collection (but not this text, of which I'm aware) and has conducted a lot of excavations there. As a docent this is an interesting and useful factoid for me to know when I'm working in the museum, so I thank you. I've connected to the paper so I can read it. Israel Finkelstein is one of the authors. I enjoy his work.

the fragments were apparently found in the excavation dump ramp of the project by those Chicago guys of yours....or so that link i posted says.

Edited July 4, 2017 by The Gremlin

[The Gremlin]

...sorry 'near' the dump-ramp....not 'in' it....my bad.  (otherwise it might suggest that they missed it...and i know American archaeologists are painfully meticulous, so wouldnt want to suggest that!)

[kmt_sesh]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

@kmt_sesh - thanks for posting the original article.. it is very interesting. 

Now, I'm writing this in a hurry, and I haven't had chance to properly take the article onboard.. but.. perhaps you can help me ? 

As I understand it, the article is only REALLY saying that literacy was more widespread (in 600BCE) than previously anticipated. 

The jump to saying "the bible may have been written earlier than thought... ) seems to be.. well... a bit of a leap ? 

Have I misunderstood this ? (probably  )

You understand it quite well. That's the controversy behind it all.

Starting several decades ago there was a push among a certain percentage of biblical scholars and historians to prove the Bible was written much later than thought. This is where we hear of the scholars known as "minimalists." In the extreme minimalists have claimed all of the Bible was written down and perhaps even largely invented after the Babylonian Exile. Israel Finkelstein tends to be in the minimalist camp, although really not to that extreme. In the opposite camp, adherents are always trying to push the age of the Bible back. The minimalists have lost a lot of ground and I dare say the extreme members of the clique are not even taken seriously these days.

Sorry, as everyone knows, I tend to drone on. Some biblical scholars seem to argue (and perhaps the article in my OP reflects this) that the proof of literacy is proof of an early Old Testament. I would disagree. To me that's an over-simplification. I would fall somewhere in between the minimalists and the believers. Things are more comfortable there in the middle. 

[kmt_sesh]

6 minutes ago, The Gremlin said:

...sorry 'near' the dump-ramp....not 'in' it....my bad.  (otherwise it might suggest that they missed it...and i know American archaeologists are painfully meticulous, so wouldnt want to suggest that!)

Oh, don't worry about that. It doesn't necessarily matter where an archaeologist comes from. We have several posters here who've actually been in archaeological digs, so I think they'd agree how easy it can be to miss things. That's especially the case when a team is digging in a certain area and not in an adjacent area. As I recall, Chicago was digging largely in the ruins of burned-out structures. The most famous Chicago finds (many of which are displayed in our museum) are the beautiful Megiddo ivories.

In a joking way I just blame everything on interns. We have two mummies at the Field Museum whose heads are completely detached and are loose inside their burial masks. I like to joke with people that an intern dropped them 70 years ago (I really have no idea). I always remember my professor when studying anthropology, who liked to spin stories. This was Native American anthropology. He was digging a site in the Northwest where they happened to find only one intact grave. My prof sent an intern into the grave to remove the bones, and the intern was doing fine until it came time for the skull. As the intern climbed out he tripped and dropped the skull. It shattered all over the ground. Oops.

[The Gremlin]

12 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Oh, don't worry about that. It doesn't necessarily matter where an archaeologist comes from. We have several posters here who've actually been in archaeological digs, so I think they'd agree how easy it can be to miss things. That's especially the case when a team is digging in a certain area and not in an adjacent area. As I recall, Chicago was digging largely in the ruins of burned-out structures. The most famous Chicago finds (many of which are displayed in our museum) are the beautiful Megiddo ivories.

In a joking way I just blame everything on interns. We have two mummies at the Field Museum whose heads are completely detached and are loose inside their burial masks. I like to joke with people that an intern dropped them 70 years ago (I really have no idea). I always remember my professor when studying anthropology, who liked to spin stories. This was Native American anthropology. He was digging a site in the Northwest where they happened to find only one intact grave. My prof sent an intern into the grave to remove the bones, and the intern was doing fine until it came time for the skull. As the intern climbed out he tripped and dropped the skull. It shattered all over the ground. Oops.

their british compatriots of the time would be quickly kicking the dirt off the artifacts so that they could shut shop and catch happy hour down the pub!

 

[back to earth]

On 6/26/2017 at 0:03 PM, kmt_sesh said:

Well, I was bored. All of you people left me alone and there was no one around to keep me in line.

[back to earth]

43 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Oh, don't worry about that. It doesn't necessarily matter where an archaeologist comes from. We have several posters here who've actually been in archaeological digs, so I think they'd agree how easy it can be to miss things. That's especially the case when a team is digging in a certain area and not in an adjacent area. As I recall, Chicago was digging largely in the ruins of burned-out structures. The most famous Chicago finds (many of which are displayed in our museum) are the beautiful Megiddo ivories.

In a joking way I just blame everything on interns. We have two mummies at the Field Museum whose heads are completely detached and are loose inside their burial masks. I like to joke with people that an intern dropped them 70 years ago (I really have no idea). I always remember my professor when studying anthropology, who liked to spin stories. This was Native American anthropology. He was digging a site in the Northwest where they happened to find only one intact grave. My prof sent an intern into the grave to remove the bones, and the intern was doing fine until it came time for the skull. As the intern climbed out he tripped and dropped the skull. It shattered all over the ground. Oops.

 

Reminds me of the Kempsey Gem and Mineral Society auction I went to . The auctioneer held up  high  a lovely large  sample  so all could see it , "What am I bid on this lovely sample of  ....   "  it slipped, he tried to catch it with the other hand, fumbled, bounced of his chest, fumbled with  both hands, lands on the table ... smash  ....    "  ....  on these three lovely samples of ....   "     

Edited July 4, 2017 by back to earth

[jmccr8]

A football player went into the local safeway to pick up groceries, when he got to the produce section he asked a clerk if he could buy half a cantaloup, the clerk didn't know and walked to the breakroom to ask the manager. While walking in he starts saying to the manager that" some ******** idiot wants to buy half a cantaloup" and realizes as he's speaking that Nolan has followed him in, and without a break he turns and points to Nolan and says "and this gentleman would like to buy the other half".

jmccr8

Edited July 4, 2017 by jmccr8