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Could the universe itself be conscious ?

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kartikg

Is this a plot to make science appealing to new age, woo woo crowd? These are exactly the kind of stories the woo gurus are looking for exploit the people.

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RabidMongoose

If we are really honest then we cannot see the thought processes that go on in our subconscious minds. All we know is what bubbles up out of them. I have to ask if anybody else has ever noticed the weird connect between what bubbles up out of the subconscious and what bubbles up in reality?

I cannot decide if the subconscious mind has non-local connections with reality, or if both are the same thing.

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Timothy
16 minutes ago, Saru said:

This is a genuine science story, you can find studies and papers on all the concepts covered in the article.

Still feels super woo-ish. 

Actions have reactions, that's all there it to it.  

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RabidMongoose
5 minutes ago, Timonthy said:

Still feels super woo-ish. 

Actions have reactions, that's all there it to it.  

I`m against the way science is taught in schools and colleges because the students have neither the knowledge or the cognitive abilities to question and criticise whats being passed onto them. In fact, no one gets what they need to question and criticise passed on or taught to them until the last two years of a university degree be it in physics or any other degree.

My personal pet hates are those people lacking a university education who are totally convinced that they have computers for brains, that survival of the fittest is correct, and that the universe began with the big bang. I shall now add to that people who think that they`re living in a Newtonian universe.

In business studies they teach you some quantum mechanics such as chaos theory and fractal images. With fractals lets pretend you work at a weather station which collections temperature data from 1000s of sensors all around your country. The data is fed into a supercomputer which discovers a fractal image buried within it. What does the fractal image say to you?

It says that there is a repeating pattern present in the image regardless of the point you pick. Therefore it says the temperature at those 1000s of points all around you country are not actually independent from each other because there is an underlying pattern on which they are derived. Worse, the patterns are not static too either. Time changes and with it new patterns constantly emerge not at one point, but at all of those 1000s of points across your country.

In business studies we are taught to setup an organisation so that new patterns emerge over time (by new patterns I mean new ways of doing things) but to place some controls in place to make sure those patterns are beneficial to the firm. And guess what? Because reality is structured the patterns which emerge inside the business also affect the outside wider environment.

For those atheists that dont like religion its actually the same. You are taught to live a life with certain controls in place (no sins) so that the patterns which emerge over time are in your interests. Yet reality is structured so you get back what you sow. Positive or negative karma back because the patterns which your actions allow to arise affect all of reality not just your own little area.

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Taun

Is the entire universe conscious or even sapient in it's own right? (shrugs) I don't know... I don't know if we will ever truly figure that out, and even if we could, I seriously doubt we could ever communicate with it - the scales are just too mind boggling different - can a single cell creature communicate intelligently with a person? Could the universe be an intelligence on it's own? Sure - why not? But "could" is a far cry from "is" - and the "is" would be darned hard to prove...

 

While I have no idea if it is or not, I was always struck by how much the universe (at extremely large scale) resembles brain tissue - particularly neurons and their pathways...

 

 

picture of a neuron:

D9.jpg

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kartikg
39 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I`m against the way science is taught in schools and colleges because the students have neither the knowledge or the cognitive abilities to question and criticise whats being passed onto them. In fact, no one gets what they need to question and criticise passed on or taught to them until the last two years of a university degree be it in physics or any other degree.

My personal pet hates are those people lacking a university education who are totally convinced that they have computers for brains, that survival of the fittest is correct, and that the universe began with the big bang. I shall now add to that people who think that they`re living in a Newtonian universe.

In business studies they teach you some quantum mechanics such as chaos theory and fractal images. With fractals lets pretend you work at a weather station which collections temperature data from 1000s of sensors all around your country. The data is fed into a supercomputer which discovers a fractal image buried within it. What does the fractal image say to you?

It says that there is a repeating pattern present in the image regardless of the point you pick. Therefore it says the temperature at those 1000s of points all around you country are not actually independent from each other because there is an underlying pattern on which they are derived. Worse, the patterns are not static too either. Time changes and with it new patterns constantly emerge not at one point, but at all of those 1000s of points across your country.

In business studies we are taught to setup an organisation so that new patterns emerge over time (by new patterns I mean new ways of doing things) but to place some controls in place to make sure those patterns are beneficial to the firm. And guess what? Because reality is structured the patterns which emerge inside the business also affect the outside wider environment.

For those atheists that dont like religion its actually the same. You are taught to live a life with certain controls in place (no sins) so that the patterns which emerge over time are in your interests. Yet reality is structured so you get back what you sow. Positive or negative karma back because the patterns which your actions allow to arise affect all of reality not just your own little area.

About Karma I used to believe that what you sow is what you get , but more I look at people the less it makes sense , I personally know couple of happy or normal families whose elders have done great harm to people and society yet nothing happened to them , I have some friends who have cheated their way to jobs and have progressed better than their peers  ... karma seems to be just a  construct for the victims or less fortunate who console themselves . If nothing else what I believe is karma doesn't always work . 

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markrbell

Here is a passage from a 1957 transcript of transcendental communication via Direct Voice seance (published in an autobiographical book by Lucy Chauncy Bridges):
 

Edited by markrbell
transcript word doesn't fully show

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markrbell

"You are part of the Universal Mind, of the nature of God, which is Universal Mind. Therefore, it is necessary to provide you with your conscious mind, though you are at the same time part of the Universal. The subconscious is the link between the ordinary and everyday you and the God you."

Edited by markrbell
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RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, kartikg said:

About Karma I used to believe that what you sow is what you get , but more I look at people the less it makes sense , I personally know couple of happy or normal families whose elders have done great harm to people and society yet nothing happened to them , I have some friends who have cheated their way to jobs and have progressed better than their peers  ... karma seems to be just a  construct for the victims or less fortunate who console themselves . If nothing else what I believe is karma doesn't always work . 

I would start by setting yourself some moral standards to obey as you go through life. Then whatever you get up too (your patterns of behaviour) keep them within those moral boundaries.

Patterns of behaviour are not just the physical actions you engage in but also patterns in your emotions. When you fall into the trap of negative emotions such as envy, jealously, anger, rage, the lack of satisfaction in life, you are engaging in patterns that shape your external reality. Then you are getting them back. In some ways it could be argued that the universe is trying to force you to overcome them by using them back against you to break you down.

Even the most highest functioning of sociopaths are unable to hide their lies, manipulations, cheating and illegal activities for any considerable length of time. Mind you, they always make their delusional claims about winning in life. The only time they can avoid being brought to justice or held to account is when they are only in contact with weak people who (because they dont want to be targeted themselves) avoid confronting or exposing them.

Put aside any atheism, any pre-conceived ideas about religion, and just get your Bible out and formulate a pattern for living, thinking and feeling. Put it into practice for 6 months to test it. Morality in the Bible is not what a lot of people (who have never actually read the thing) claim it is. It is not about treating everyone well. It is about only treating the moral well and destroying everyone else.

So always take the opportunity to confront and expose the sociopaths for what they are. Openly put a label on every bit of immoral behaviour you come across and shame the people doing it. This stuff needs to go into your pattern of living. And conquer your own negative emotions. Happy exploring!

Edited by RabidMongoose
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spartan max2

Perhaps we are just the cells of the universe lol

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White Unicorn
1 hour ago, kartikg said:

About Karma I used to believe that what you sow is what you get , but more I look at people the less it makes sense , I personally know couple of happy or normal families whose elders have done great harm to people and society yet nothing happened to them , I have some friends who have cheated their way to jobs and have progressed better than their peers  ... karma seems to be just a  construct for the victims or less fortunate who console themselves . If nothing else what I believe is karma doesn't always work . 

I think of Karma as cause and effect. 

We do reap what we sow but there are many sowers and reapers involved not just the individuals. I think it's actually more of a collective effect. 

 

 

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RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, White Unicorn said:

I think of Karma as cause and effect. 

We do reap what we sow but there are many sowers and reapers involved not just the individuals. I think it's actually more of a collective effect. 

You are treating reality as a single entity, which exists separate from us all, which we are each experiencing different parts off.

Alternatively, lets pretend we are each living in our own virtual reality booth being fed our own uniquely tailored versions of reality. This is more closer to the mechanics of how reality is known to work in physics - reality being relative to the individual not the whole collective. Obviously this analogy still isn't spot on as its treats each tailored version of reality as existing separate from the person experiencing it. Reality and the mind experiencing it cannot be separated because reality is just a collection of mental perceptions containing no primary truth.

If anything true did exist it would be true from the perspective of all minds in all sets of circumstances. Not true for just the person experiencing it, or a limited number of people. The fact everything we can think off is not true for all minds in all circumstances means it isn't really true.

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fred_mc
4 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Perhaps we are just the cells of the universe lol

I think that we are more the parasites of the universe. We don't live in balance with nature. Instead, we use up all resources and exterminate most life except for ourselves. Then we move on to another place and do the same thing there.

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spartan max2
5 minutes ago, fred_mc said:

I think that we are more the parasites of the universe. We don't live in balance with nature. Instead, we use up all resources and exterminate most life except for ourselves. Then we move on to another place and do the same thing there.

Humans sure love to hate themselves lol

I'm sure those rocks on Mars are more benifical to the universe 

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fred_mc
22 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Humans sure love to hate themselves lol

I'm sure those rocks on Mars are more benifical to the universe 

Yes, it is easy to laugh at it ... but I find it to be a pretty fascinating thought that in 1 billion years when it will be too warm for complex life, such as humans, to exist on Earth, when the seas will have evaporated, there will still be rocks on Mars. In fact, when all stars in the universe have burnt up their fuel and everything is dark, there will probably still be rocks on Mars (unless the sun will burn up Mars as the sun dies but it doubtful whether the sun will expand to become that big).

Edited by fred_mc

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Tom the Photon

There's a lot of meandering off track here...  The article suggests that the Universe as a whole might act as a single intelligent unit.  This concept is ancient, global and rooted deeply in many branches of philosophy.  It provides a framework for philosophers to discuss consciousness and seeks to prove a material framework for God / gods.  As an intellectual exercise it is complex and attractive, especially to people with faith in religion, but that really is all it can be.

The recent 'scientific' approach to panpsychism requires a critical analysis.  I haven't yet researched the individuals named in the article so I'll just address some of their 'works' as described in the article.

"Physicist Gregory Matloff ... suggests that a 'proto-consciousness field' could extend across the entire universe and that, like humans, the cosmos itself may be self-aware.  "It's all very speculative, but it's something we can check and either validate or falsify," he said."

What details are offered for this hypothetical field?  Is it constructed from SI base dimensions, like the electrical fields that regulate our brain activity, or does Mr Matloff suggest additional quantities are required?  How might it be checked?  Shout loudly enough and see if the Universe replies?  "It's all very speculative" appears to be the grossest understatement of the year!

"Known as 'panpsychism', this compelling concept suggests that the universe is a conscious entity and that stars and other bodies possess the ability to think and control their paths."

A recent estimate suggests there are about a million million million million stars (1 x 1024).  Now we are expected to believe that each of them is conscious, "able to control its own path", yet every single one of them chooses to follow a path that's been described by science since Newton's days.  Perhaps all the stars falling into black holes are simply suicidal, as they have clearly 'chosen' to follow those paths?  I don't find this concept 'compelling': utter nonsense sounds closer to the mark.

This is not a scientific theory based on research and experimentation.  It is little more than an attempt to squeeze as much mileage as possible out of an outdated concept and sell some books in the process.  

 

Edited by Tom the Photon
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OntarioSquatch

I believe as time goes on, it'll become more obvious to people that space-time exists within consciousness, and not the other way around.

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SamS

Idealism/panpsychism has many proponents going back to Yogachara Buddhism and many notable modern physicists. Go to the original NBC link. I made a PowerPoint on that addresses the subject: https://www.dropbox.com/s/z881i5pmadbjpyp/How%20the%20Universe%20Works.pptx?dl=0

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Rey of SynchroniCity

The idea of Psyche being the same thing in a different form, similar to Energy = Matter = Psyche   incorporates Einstein's equation, which Dr. Carl Jung credited for founding the Forms of Synchronicity.   595047e4dbab7_SonnetNoosRETROSPECT2016OCT.thumb.jpg.09f5eaaf6f64c8beadbabe2f59a6ce88.jpg

 

If there is a "thinking articulate planet, with metaphoric hemispheres, some symmetry (Pauli) asymmetry (Bohr) would be expressed in the "noospheres" (thinking layers - CHARdin),  Collective Unconscious (Jung), "U-fields" (Pauli's invisible unconscious), Beauregard's "Supra Conscious,"  Aristotle's "Whole" and "Parts," (which Emperor Marcus Aurelius used), Schopenhauer's "One" and "The Many" and "The Subject" and "Matter" and so on.    

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Names and abbreviations of physical geographical locations and persons, should the physics (matter) and analogous Psyche (psychology) as Bohr and Pauli related would have expressions that are similar.   Though the "whole" would be "invisible" because people tend to see objects as distinct with no correspondence with the "whole."  Thus it is so big that it appears as if invisible.  The poem above is a world view that incorporates a unified vision between psychology and physics, if the interested reader can see the "coincidences" latent.  

-

It is like a psychology test to see if people can count how many names they recognize.  More points to vocalize it.  Even more points when all the "coincidences" work together in the familiar atom to molecule and/or archetype patterns.  

-

The question begs for the interested to probe past writers to get a clearer perspective and catch glimpses of time and motion as a broader singularity, a multiple-unity.  Thus one can project "chaos" and nonsense when "seeing" the world as an equivalent expression of physical world, or for others, it makes sense, I believe.

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Merc14
5 hours ago, Tom the Photon said:

There's a lot of meandering off track here...  The article suggests that the Universe as a whole might act as a single intelligent unit.  This concept is ancient, global and rooted deeply in many branches of philosophy.  It provides a framework for philosophers to discuss consciousness and seeks to prove a material framework for God / gods.  As an intellectual exercise it is complex and attractive, especially to people with faith in religion, but that really is all it can be.

The recent 'scientific' approach to panpsychism requires a critical analysis.  I haven't yet researched the individuals named in the article so I'll just address some of their 'works' as described in the article.

"Physicist Gregory Matloff ... suggests that a 'proto-consciousness field' could extend across the entire universe and that, like humans, the cosmos itself may be self-aware.  "It's all very speculative, but it's something we can check and either validate or falsify," he said."

What details are offered for this hypothetical field?  Is it constructed from SI base dimensions, like the electrical fields that regulate our brain activity, or does Mr Matloff suggest additional quantities are required?  How might it be checked?  Shout loudly enough and see if the Universe replies?  "It's all very speculative" appears to be the grossest understatement of the year!

"Known as 'panpsychism', this compelling concept suggests that the universe is a conscious entity and that stars and other bodies possess the ability to think and control their paths."

A recent estimate suggests there are about a million million million million stars (1 x 1024).  Now we are expected to believe that each of them is conscious, "able to control its own path", yet every single one of them chooses to follow a path that's been described by science since Newton's days.  Perhaps all the stars falling into black holes are simply suicidal, as they have clearly 'chosen' to follow those paths?  I don't find this concept 'compelling': utter nonsense sounds closer to the mark.

This is not a scientific theory based on research and experimentation.  It is little more than an attempt to squeeze as much mileage as possible out of an outdated concept and sell some books in the process.  

 

Spot on!  My first question after that sentence was "Just how in the hell are you going to validate or falsify this "proto -conscious field" when you can't even describe what the name you made up for it means or postulate how it could possibly work?" 

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khol

My two bits is its the other way around. Its not quantum fields permeating space carrying some conscious force with stars controling there own paths...which is just ridiculous.Its humans themselves.

We are the universe and not seperate from it which the article suggests.Evolved through eons of time from the elements created in distant stars.The universe is conscious through the eyes of every human being.

We are the product of its highly evolved state in which it percieves itself...From that aspect it is conscious, through us and not seperate from us. We are part of the universe as a whole are we not?

Its the time spans thats hard to comprehend..complexity arose but it took billions and billions of years in our case.

For me anyways there is no need to read anymore into it.

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Adampadum123

I love reading stuff like this it makes my imagination
Go wild

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Nzo

I hate it when science is perverted into a faith based religion. We have no evidence of this. Is it possible yes. it is totally possible and so are infinitely more ideas about the universe. Do we have evidence of it, NO! in fact we have pretty much circumstantial evidence of most everything. Is it fun to think about, yes. Is it science NO! It's just conjecture and imagination.

Perfect example of science going religion. 

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