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Could the universe itself be conscious ?


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20 hours ago, Saru said:

This is a genuine science story, you can find studies and papers on all the concepts covered in the article.

Paper was published in Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research, journal of very doubtful scientific value. Quick browse reveals that it is just platform for woos.

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41 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Paper was published in Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research, journal of very doubtful scientific value. Quick browse reveals that it is just platform for woos.

There have been dozens of papers over the last few decades about the various concepts being discussed here.

Sure, most of it is theoretical and far from conclusive or provable, but it deserves more than to just be dismissed out of hand as "woo".

If nothing else, applying quantum physics to the problem of understanding the nature of consciousness is an interesting thought experiment.

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To us 'religious' people, the concept of an intelligent universe is the scientific equivalent of "In Him we live and move and exist..." (Acts 17:28 NASB). We take it for granted that an intelligent entity is the foundation of existence. 

Two of my favorite quotations, one from a physicist, the other from a biologist:

 Gerald Schroeder: "The startling, totally counterintuitive, yet scientifically proven discoveries of physics reveal that our world, at it's deepest level, is not built of tangible discrete objects. Rather, when we look closely, we find that reality is as gossamer as a thought, that existence is closer to being an association of ideas than a conglomeration of atoms." 

 George Wald: "The stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is mind that has composed a physical universe."

Edited by simplybill
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Seems like we have a very Human take when thinking of these matters.

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22 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

You are treating reality as a single entity, which exists separate from us all, which we are each experiencing different parts off.

Alternatively, lets pretend we are each living in our own virtual reality booth being fed our own uniquely tailored versions of reality. This is more closer to the mechanics of how reality is known to work in physics - reality being relative to the individual not the whole collective. Obviously this analogy still isn't spot on as its treats each tailored version of reality as existing separate from the person experiencing it. Reality and the mind experiencing it cannot be separated because reality is just a collection of mental perceptions containing no primary truth.

If anything true did exist it would be true from the perspective of all minds in all sets of circumstances. Not true for just the person experiencing it, or a limited number of people. The fact everything we can think off is not true for all minds in all circumstances means it isn't really true.

I' m with you on that concept. 

It's just when people say Karma they are usually referring to the reality  of our physical perceptions with others and events of normal conscious awareness. It's the  perceived reality of a group, cause and effect appears as  a collective effort on a group reality in the physical  world perceived.

 

I don't think it is the ultimate truth or reality either, it's a perception of an individual and a confirming group who see the same kind of reality. 

Edited by White Unicorn
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13 hours ago, Nzo said:

I hate it when science is perverted into a faith based religion. We have no evidence of this. Is it possible yes. it is totally possible and so are infinitely more ideas about the universe. Do we have evidence of it, NO! in fact we have pretty much circumstantial evidence of most everything. Is it fun to think about, yes. Is it science NO! It's just conjecture and imagination.

Perfect example of science going religion. 

To late, science has long had all the recognized precepts of a religion hundreds of years ago. Its only now being exacerbated by today's headlines. Remember, science let hundreds of thousands of women die during child birth just because doctors threw out facts that the Holy hands of doctors did not need to be washed and could not possibly be carrying harmful microbes from one patient to another.

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Theoretically, this would tend to explain a bit of the unexplained phenomena world-wide. Such as ghosts, disembodied intelligences, portals, unexplained beings popping out of nowhere and then back again. A great example would be the Skin Walker Ranch Project in which almost a dozen top scientists in their fields were employed with an unlimited budget to investigate and come up with answers as to what was going on there scientifically.

Edited by Saitung
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2 hours ago, White Unicorn said:

I' m with you on that concept. 

It's just when people say Karma they are usually referring to the reality  of our physical perceptions with others and events of normal conscious awareness. It's the  perceived reality of a group, cause and effect appears as  a collective effort on a group reality in the physical  world perceived.

I don't think it is the ultimate truth or reality either, it's a perception of an individual and a confirming group who see the same kind of reality. 

There is no collective reality, reality is unique to each individual based on your perceptions and/or your situational circumstances.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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1 hour ago, Saitung said:

Theoretically, this would tend to explain a bit of the unexplained phenomena world-wide. Such as ghosts, disembodied intelligences, portals, unexplained beings popping out of nowhere and then back again. A great example would be the Skin Walker Ranch Project in which almost a dozen top scientists in their fields were employed with an unlimited budget to investigate and come up with answers as to what was going on there scientifically.

In Buddhism (and in Quantum Mechanics) its the act of gaining information which brings something into existence reality from the potential.

I dont know any Buddhist monk who has mastered walking through walls (as an example) but surely this is the result of deep meditation where they have altered how their minds seeking of information works? Such that the reality isn't quite real allowing them to walk through the wall?

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Even if the universe was only semi conscious that would still be cool.

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On 6/26/2017 at 11:57 AM, Saru said:

There have been dozens of papers over the last few decades about the various concepts being discussed here.

Sure, most of it is theoretical and far from conclusive or provable, but it deserves more than to just be dismissed out of hand as "woo".

If nothing else, applying quantum physics to the problem of understanding the nature of consciousness is an interesting thought experiment.

Well, when "conscious" stars self propel by means of telekinesis/psychokinesis, thats plain woo.

Anyway, all his paper is like "its controversial, but just for the sake of argument, lets consider that winds might be blowing just because flocks of fairies are flipping their wings"...

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2 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

Well, when "conscious" stars self propel by means of telekinesis/psychokinesis, thats plain woo.

Anyway, all his paper is like "its controversial, but just for the sake of argument, lets consider that winds might be blowing just because flocks of fairies are flipping their wings"...

..in a metaphysical sense, of course ;)

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If the universe has a consciousness of itself as a teleological one, then what would be it's purpose ? 

Iv'e always liked this quote from Carl Sagan -  “We are a way for the universe to know itself.” 

 

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On 2017-6-26 at 0:27 AM, spartan max2 said:

Perhaps we are just the cells of the universe lol

I think we are, as we are all apart of it.

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Carl Sagan also said he thought there was a separate area of his brain that was a different entity he called The Watcher, that he thought would watch him and think independently of his own thoughts.  Then, I think, he succumbed to his own ideas in his old age about older apes hardening their brains in their older years, and not acknowledging the new ideas brought about by the younger apes learning how to get food.

Anyway, when I read that I was interested in the watchers in the Necronomicon, however, I doubt Carl Sagan had read the Necronomicon back then.

Anyway, there's a reoccuring myth in different religions, that one of the Gods slew some sort of beast before creation, and laid half of their body in heaven and it became heaven, and the other part down to become the earth.  Then, I guess the universe is a dead creature, though part of cells, and that new life forms have grown on these cells and revived them to their own needs.

However, i think more appropriate and logical, would be that of Genesis where God, the we, made us, in his own image, and breathed life into us.  If God is the personification of the universe, then we have it in ourselves too.  Sort of a quantum entanglement, not really, I'm not sure what to call it.

Though, it's not completely honest, I don't think, to deny that images of the universe look like neurons, that some galaxies look like nerve endings, etc.  Also, the model of atoms and the solar system, very similar.  Microcosm and Macrocosm.

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16 hours ago, Astra. said:

If the universe has a consciousness of itself as a teleological one, then what would be it's purpose ? 

Iv'e always liked this quote from Carl Sagan -  “We are a way for the universe to know itself.” 

 

But why would the universe want to "know" itself for?

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46 minutes ago, taniwha said:

But why would the universe want to "know" itself for?

That's a good question. I think life spreads around like a pollen throughout the universe. If its just chemical reactions with water and it goes from there to reach our point in evolution, maybe its just a survival of the fittest. Its just pleasure and pain right off the bat that life wants to experience as little pain as possible and geared towards pleasures the universe offers like a light bulb or a good song or computer software or bug spray for universes jerk bugs..So its a pleasure for the universe to know itself. Also do we really understand the whole nature of everything yet?

 

Edited by trevorhbj
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13 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

Carl Sagan also said he thought there was a separate area of his brain that was a different entity he called The Watcher, that he thought would watch him and think independently of his own thoughts.  Then, I think, he succumbed to his own ideas in his old age about older apes hardening their brains in their older years, and not acknowledging the new ideas brought about by the younger apes learning how to get food.

Anyway, when I read that I was interested in the watchers in the Necronomicon, however, I doubt Carl Sagan had read the Necronomicon back then.

Anyway, there's a reoccuring myth in different religions, that one of the Gods slew some sort of beast before creation, and laid half of their body in heaven and it became heaven, and the other part down to become the earth.  Then, I guess the universe is a dead creature, though part of cells, and that new life forms have grown on these cells and revived them to their own needs.

However, i think more appropriate and logical, would be that of Genesis where God, the we, made us, in his own image, and breathed life into us.  If God is the personification of the universe, then we have it in ourselves too.  Sort of a quantum entanglement, not really, I'm not sure what to call it.

Though, it's not completely honest, I don't think, to deny that images of the universe look like neurons, that some galaxies look like nerve endings, etc.  Also, the model of atoms and the solar system, very similar.  Microcosm and Macrocosm.

Hmmm.... Which of the planets have orbits like, say, 2p orbital? Or 3d?, Or etc?

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4 hours ago, taniwha said:

But why would the universe want to "know" itself for?

Well the way I see it, as to what Sagan meant...was that we are the product and living evidence of the Universe. We are the culmination of cause and effect that led to our existence. Therefore we are an aspect of the Universe observing itself, seeing as we are a part of it.

Hope that makes sense.

 

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God by any other name... I really feel that heaven is hiding in dark energy. What other massive presence would be so powerful as to literally dominate the universe, and yet remain completely out of touch,and invisible? As if by design

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  • 1 year later...

I guess you could also include the theory of biocentrism to the list of conscious universe theory. It suggests however, that universe doesn't create life, it is the other way round. According to theory of biocentrism, spacetime is an illusion created by our conscious minds. This theory helps solve the problem of how stuff behaves in the microscopic world. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle also applies to the macroscopic world.

If you are interested, you may read Biocentrism by Robert Lanza.

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On 6/26/2017 at 3:57 AM, Saru said:

If nothing else, applying quantum physics to the problem of understanding the nature of consciousness is an interesting thought experiment.

It really is actually.  Imagine if we could stand outside the universe and shrink it to the size of a golf ball.  There might appear some very interesting correlations between the galaxies, super novas, and neuron activity in the brain.

I have always been intrigued how the universe seems as infinitely small as it is large.  Probably why I am a big fan of the Mandelbrot Set:

 

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