Space Commander Travis Posted August 10, 2017 #51 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: Most islands and territories can easily accommodate bombers and defensive armaments. What makes you think they can't? With pilotless craft and vertical takeoff tech it will only get easier to scatter forces around the globe. Like I said before... it's pretty hard to destroy an island with one bomb and very easy to sink an aircraft carrier with a single torpedo. You mentioned Guam. The U.S. Sends a couple of carrier battle group to China and they will not last 24 hours in a conventional war without back up from Guam. I think Guam could carry on attacking Chinese shipping and aircraft on its own. Try maintaining operational capability after they've been taken out by a tactical nuke. You could say the same about a carrier of course, but it's a much less easy target to find (particularly for anything as unsophisticated as a fire-it-up-into-the-air-and-see-where-it-comes-down rocket). Or even a couple of well sited hits on the runway from conventional bombs would put it out of action for long enough for your bombers to either be unable to get off or if they were already in the air, to have to try to look for somewhere else to land or ditch in the ocean, And why do you envisage that your pitiless craft and your vertical takeoff tech would always be able to reach the enemy from your secret island base? Should the British do like the Chinese are doing, and build a network of artificial island bases within range of any likely adversary, just in case? That wouldn't be at all likely to attract their attention, would it? That would be a far more sensible idea than having mobile bases that you could keep anywhere in the world and move anywhere in the world, yes. There's certainly a putting-all-you-eggs-in-one-basket argument about whether it would be better to have three or four smaller carriers than two (if they could afford it) big ones, certainly. And besides; it was easy to sink Japanese carriers with one torpedo, yes, but that was down to frankly incompetence. American and British carriers, even in WWII, could put up with a heck of a lot and still stay afloat. Edited August 10, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenonegin Posted August 10, 2017 #52 Share Posted August 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said: And all this completely ignores the main historical function of navies throughout history; to protect trade (hence the interest in the South China Sea and Persian Gulf, which could easily be blocked to trade should China or Iran decide to take a position similar to N. Korea). Would drones and stealth bombers flying all the way from the US be a more effective and flexible response there than mobile assets right on the spot? No, you are right, but a single aircraft carrier could be knocked out in seconds. Waste of money, unless it can be used as a bargaining chip, but since the NK leader is a lunatic, is it worthwhile? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Area Posted August 10, 2017 #53 Share Posted August 10, 2017 28 minutes ago, eugeneonegin said: No, you are right, but a single aircraft carrier could be knocked out in seconds. Waste of money, unless it can be used as a bargaining chip, but since the NK leader is a lunatic, is it worthwhile? Everyone is completely missing the point. A carrier is not in and of itself an army. It is a powerful but singular component in a much larger game, it is but a chess piece. And believe it or not, North Korea is not the only threat in the world, that would make things much easier if they were, modern armed forces need to be versatile and a nation needs to have all bases covered, I believe a new state of the art carrier covers a nice base. Not only this, but in a time of war, a carrier would not be unescorted, and would be a difficult target to hit from any angle. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 10, 2017 #54 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Grey Area said: Everyone is completely missing the point. A carrier is not in and of itself an army. It is a powerful but singular component in a much larger game, it is but a chess piece. And believe it or not, North Korea is not the only threat in the world, that would make things much easier if they were, modern armed forces need to be versatile and a nation needs to have all bases covered, I believe a new state of the art carrier covers a nice base. Not only this, but in a time of war, a carrier would not be unescorted, and would be a difficult target to hit from any angle. I have to agree. Western naval doctrine is that a carrier is accompanied by a screen of frigates and destroyers to detect and ward off submarines. (for that matter, such a fleet might have several of its OWN submarines prowling around). In addition, the Carrier (and possibly the destroyers) would have a continious patrol of anti-submarine helicopters fitted with dipping sonar, air-launched torpedoes, and on-board chocolate dispensing machines. You also have to factor in that the Queen Elizabeth can travel rather quickly, as can its escorts. A submerged submarine might be able to keep up with them, in a straight line sprint, but it would NOT be able to do so silently. And a noisy submarine would not last for long ! In the Royal Navy, the carrier is also escorted by a Type45 destroyer which can - in theory - shoot down enemy anti-shipping missiles, (in the style of Exocet or Harpoon etc..though probably not ballistic missiles) along with enemy aircraft and anti-chocolate mines. Edited August 10, 2017 by RoofGardener 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted August 10, 2017 #55 Share Posted August 10, 2017 (edited) With their land installations nuked, their electronics fried by EM pulses and their GPS targeting capabilities neutralized, targeting a battle group on the high seas would be problematical. An artificial island would be vaporized by a direct hit and as they are stationary, easily targeted by inertial guidance alone. We would be defending our homeland and wouldn't hold anything back. If they sow the wind, they will reap the whirlwind. Edited August 10, 2017 by Hammerclaw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 10, 2017 #56 Share Posted August 10, 2017 OK, there is an obvious compromise here, combining the superior structural potential of a land-based facility, with the mobility of a carrier task force. Just build the airbase on the back of a giant turtle ! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 13, 2017 Author #57 Share Posted August 13, 2017 @keithisco Hms Queen Elizabeth left Invergordon last night and is on her way to Portsmouth. Entry to harbour planned for 09:37 on Friday morning. making her way down West Coast. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted August 13, 2017 #58 Share Posted August 13, 2017 33 minutes ago, stevewinn said: @keithisco Hms Queen Elizabeth left Invergordon last night and is on her way to Portsmouth. Entry to harbour planned for 09:37 on Friday morning. making her way down West Coast. I am frankly surprised just how well she is performing during these trials. Going to be a real boon to UK defensive capabilities. I cannot get to Pompey until c13:30 (have to earn a crust of bread) so hoping they will have a delay for additional testing. Might be a crush to see her though as anything up to 250,000 folk are expected to head into the city and Southsea to get a glimpse of the arrival. If at all possible I will get some pictures to post here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 13, 2017 Author #59 Share Posted August 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, keithisco said: I am frankly surprised just how well she is performing during these trials. Going to be a real boon to UK defensive capabilities. I cannot get to Pompey until c13:30 (have to earn a crust of bread) so hoping they will have a delay for additional testing. Might be a crush to see her though as anything up to 250,000 folk are expected to head into the city and Southsea to get a glimpse of the arrival. If at all possible I will get some pictures to post here. The Weather forecast for Friday is glorious, clear blue skies, High tide is not till 15:30. So, I imagine she'll arrive nearer 3pm. which would give people time to arrive and get settled in, surely they'll have a air display red arrows etc....Just looked the Red Arrows are Scheduled for 15:00 at Eastbourne Air show, so just down the coast. i'd imagine they'll be available for a fly past in Portsmouth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Monk Posted August 13, 2017 #60 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Just a bit unfortunate that HMS Queen Elizabeth looks dwarfed by USS George H W Bush. Just another 12 carriers now and we'll be sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 13, 2017 #61 Share Posted August 13, 2017 4 hours ago, stevewinn said: @keithisco Hms Queen Elizabeth left Invergordon last night and is on her way to Portsmouth. Entry to harbour planned for 09:37 on Friday morning. making her way down West Coast. Going rather the long way round? Perhaps they don't want the French to steal any of their secrets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 13, 2017 #62 Share Posted August 13, 2017 3 hours ago, stevewinn said: The Weather forecast for Friday is glorious, clear blue skies, High tide is not till 15:30. So, I imagine she'll arrive nearer 3pm. which would give people time to arrive and get settled in, surely they'll have a air display red arrows etc....Just looked the Red Arrows are Scheduled for 15:00 at Eastbourne Air show, so just down the coast. i'd imagine they'll be available for a fly past in Portsmouth. Weymouth Carnival on Wednesday. They could make a quick diversion to show off in the bay couldn't they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 13, 2017 #63 Share Posted August 13, 2017 4 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said: Going rather the long way round? Perhaps they don't want the French to steal any of their secrets. Meh.. don't worry.. the Russians will already have briefed them on all of THOSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 13, 2017 Author #64 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Strong possibility she will call at both Glasgow & Liverpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 13, 2017 #65 Share Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) Umm... Glasgow ? Will it fit down the Clyde ? Edited August 13, 2017 by RoofGardener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 13, 2017 Author #66 Share Posted August 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said: Umm... Glasgow ? Will it fit down the Clyde ? Greenock, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 14, 2017 #67 Share Posted August 14, 2017 In the firth of Clyde now, just off Irvine. She was cracking on, working up to 28 knots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 14, 2017 #68 Share Posted August 14, 2017 16 hours ago, Black Monk said: Just a bit unfortunate that HMS Queen Elizabeth looks dwarfed by USS George H W Bush. They need the extra flight deck length because their pilots aren't so skilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 14, 2017 Author #69 Share Posted August 14, 2017 20 hours ago, Black Monk said: Just a bit unfortunate that HMS Queen Elizabeth looks dwarfed by USS George H W Bush. Just another 12 carriers now and we'll be sorted. and yet, HMS QE Class deck space 4.2 Acres. Cost $4.1 Billion. Nimitz Class deck space 4.5 Acres. Cost $8.1 Billion. Ford Class deck space 4.5 Acres. Cost $10.4 Billion. Not doing bad for the money, Obviously US Carriers cats n traps plus nuclear propulsion. HMS Queen Elizabeth as current and with cats n' traps. As people will see still the same deck space. Possibility could be retro fitted with Cats n' Traps at their mid-life refit - as the F35B will be leaving service at that time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 15, 2017 #70 Share Posted August 15, 2017 (edited) Well, at the rate she's going she'll be there later today. At the moment she's stooging around just south of Portland Bill. http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:4585861/mmsi:235107775/imo:4907892/vessel:HMS_QUEEN_ELIZABETH Edited August 15, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 15, 2017 #71 Share Posted August 15, 2017 Well, you got quite a nice view of her from the seafront at Weymouth (not from the actual beach, from the higher bit a bit further along). She was heading past Portland Bill and across the bay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted August 15, 2017 #72 Share Posted August 15, 2017 I'm actually disappointed because there is no way I can get to Pompey at 7:10 tomorrow morning. Been listening to Radio Solent all day whilst working and Pompey council have hastily re-arranged all of the Park and Ride schemes for tomorrow. Radio Solent is broadcasting live for the arrival so will at least catch some of the atmosphere. Hopefully. I will still be able to get a view of her on Friday, or I might take a "Harbour Cruise" to try and get some decent pictures. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 16, 2017 #73 Share Posted August 16, 2017 just watched her come alongside live on Marine Traffic. They managed not to run aground then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 16, 2017 #74 Share Posted August 16, 2017 From twitter: Quote HMS Queen Elizabeth @HMSQnlz All of R08 Ship's Company are fell in for Procedure Alpha #CarrierHome 06:32 - 16 Aug 2017 Are fell in? I suppose that must be right, as "get fell in, you 'orrible lot". "Are fallen in" might be misconstrued, I suppose, that they might have a person overboard situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted August 16, 2017 Author #75 Share Posted August 16, 2017 14 hours ago, keithisco said: I'm actually disappointed because there is no way I can get to Pompey at 7:10 tomorrow morning. Been listening to Radio Solent all day whilst working and Pompey council have hastily re-arranged all of the Park and Ride schemes for tomorrow. Radio Solent is broadcasting live for the arrival so will at least catch some of the atmosphere. Hopefully. I will still be able to get a view of her on Friday, or I might take a "Harbour Cruise" to try and get some decent pictures. Just been watching the footage and the pictures, brilliant sight. Everything went off without a hitch, meticulous planning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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