HMSQueen Elizabeth to sail for the first time

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Tell that to the Fuerza Aerea Argentina. Super-duper supersonic speed and ultra-long range missiles are probably overrated, the kind of combat environment where it might be possible to use that to their full advantage is rally very very rare, and in fact has probably never been encountered in any real conflict there's been since WWII.

But then, I know it's your policy to do down the Old Country at every chance you get. 

if the harrier was so good then why did so many British ships get hit? Most of the Argentinian airforce was under a U.S. embargo, their best fighters were French, they were few and the French stopped all support once the invasion took place. thing is that the Argentinians were crap. they had 5 exocets only and if they targeted the 2 British aircraft carriers instead of whatever ship popped up on their radar screens then the war would have had a very different end. The harriers were operating under air cover from the navy and close to their supply lines while the Argies were very far away and their fighters could not loiter on the battlefield for lack of fuel. 

Luckily America and France were supporting Britain with their embargoes and intel.  If that naval battle group had gone up against Russian fighters or even F-16 types then the outcome would have been different.  While the harrier was a good support fighter it was very limited. Just accept it. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Captain Risky

[Space Commander Travis]

Honestly, you do deal out shovelfuls of bilge regularly. Nine Daggers (Israeli built Mirages) (+ 1 Mirage proper) and 8 Skyhawks for no air-to-air losses in return? (see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_air_forces_in_the_Falklands_War#Casualties_and_aircraft_losses )  I think that's a pretty respectable score. And the Argentinians were by no means to be taken lightly; anyone who was there would tell you how they couldn't help but respect the courage of the Argentinian pilots. 

[RoofGardener]

14 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Honestly, you do deal out shovelfuls of bilge regularly. Nine Daggers (Israeli built Mirages) (+ 1 Mirage proper) and 8 Skyhawks for no air-to-air losses in return? (see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_air_forces_in_the_Falklands_War#Casualties_and_aircraft_losses )  I think that's a pretty respectable score. And the Argentinians were by no means to be taken lightly; anyone who was there would tell you how they couldn't help but respect the courage of the Argentinian pilots. 

Hmm... I've been doing a little more reading on the Sea Harrier, and I'm moving more towards your position, MvD. It WAS intended for air defense, amongst other things, and the Blue Box radar wasn't as bad as I'd initially been led to believe. In terms of the Argentinian aircraft shot down; much of that was down to the Argentinians having very limited radar cover; they would have limited warning of a Harrier being vectored towards them, and limited fuel for air-to-air combat. Their missiles where also markedly inferior to the remarkable Model-L "all aspect" Sidewinders carried by the Harriers. 

In regard the Skyhawks.... they where ground-attack (or anti-shipping, in this context) aircraft, and had virtually no air-defense capability. 

[stevewinn]

4 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

if the harrier was so good then why did so many British ships get hit? Most of the Argentinian airforce was under a U.S. embargo, their best fighters were French, they were few and the French stopped all support once the invasion took place. thing is that the Argentinians were crap. they had 5 exocets only and if they targeted the 2 British aircraft carriers instead of whatever ship popped up on their radar screens then the war would have had a very different end. The harriers were operating under air cover from the navy and close to their supply lines while the Argies were very far away and their fighters could not loiter on the battlefield for lack of fuel. 

Luckily America and France were supporting Britain with their embargoes and intel.  If that naval battle group had gone up against Russian fighters or even F-16 types then the outcome would have been different.  While the harrier was a good support fighter it was very limited. Just accept it. 

Rubbish. try reading 'one hundred days' and 'Battle for the Falklands'

I'll address one point the rest you can educate yourself by reading the two books, the Reason ships where hit was nothing to do with the Harrier but the fact the Ships where positioned in Coves and Bays. many of the ships where actually sacrificed to protect the landings. The geography and topography limited the ships radar ability to detect incoming attacks as the the ships where surrounded by high ground. - Read the book where Admiral Sandy woodward was unsure if San Carlos was mined, he asked a Frigate to enter San Carols, the Frigates Captain said to the admiral do you want us to zig zag a bit, so the Admiral didn't tell him the reasons for it but the Captain knew it was to see if the waters was mined. luckily it wasn't mined.

One Hundred days. by Admiral Sandy Woodward. Task Force Commander

Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings.

Edited August 27, 2017 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

HMS Prince of Wales naming ceremony

he Second in Class HMS Prince of Wales will be named on 8th September: By Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Rothesay is our Lady Sponsor & will officially name the ship.

Picture shows the ship being readied. When she leaves the Dry dock she will be further along the fitting out process than HMS Queen Elizabeth was. Its expected even though HMS QE was build first HMS Prince of Wales will be the first to be deployed.

 

 

[Black Monk]

She's looking good.

Apparently, there's an online campaign to try and rename her Ark Royal.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Black Monk

[RoofGardener]

We should NOT name either of them Ark Royal. 

We should build a THIRD one  

[Space Commander Travis]

 

15 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

She's looking good.

Do you mean Camilla or the ship? (I had to look up who the Duchess of Rothesay was. It was also at one time a Clyde paddle steamer.  )

Quote

Apparently, there's an online campaign to try and rename her Ark Royal.

Surprised there isn't an online campaign to have her renamed Princess Di. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[stevewinn]

10 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

She's looking good.

Apparently, there's an online campaign to try and rename her Ark Royal.

In the Post Brexit world we should find the money to boost the Navy and build a 3rd QE class Carrier and name her Ark Royal. Obviously we'd have to boost numbers of escorts.

[Black Monk]

20 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

In the Post Brexit world we should find the money to boost the Navy and build a 3rd QE class Carrier and name her Ark Royal. Obviously we'd have to boost numbers of escorts.

Why stop at three?

[Black Monk]

23 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

 

Do you mean Camilla or the ship? (I had to look up who the Duchess of Rothesay was. It was also at one time a Clyde paddle steamer.  )

Surprised there isn't an online campaign to have her renamed Princess Di. 

The ship looks nice.

I bet, if you looked hard enough, there is a campaign online somewhere to have the ship renamed HMS Princess Diana, or HMS Princess of Wales.

I think HMS Prince Philip, or HMS Duke of Edinburgh, would have been the most fitting name for the new ship. 

[Space Commander Travis]

21 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

The ship looks nice.

I bet, if you looked hard enough, there is a campaign online somewhere to have the ship renamed HMS Princess Diana, or HMS Princess of Wales.

I think HMS Prince Philip, or HMS Duke of Edinburgh, would have been the most fitting name for the new ship. 

Duke of Edinburgh would have been a great idea. A good tribute to Philip, as an ex naval man.

[stevewinn]

48 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

Why stop at three?

well, money but, 3 Carriers and instead of adding a 4th i'd go for two LPH's. on the subject of LPH, i notice the Italian Navys new LPH or LHD is following the UK's twin island design. The proposed French Carrier that's been cancelled/postponed also went for the twin Island design. (see last picture) Royal Navy over a hundred years of Naval aviation and carrier innovation.

[Unusual Tournament]

8 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Rubbish. try reading 'one hundred days' and 'Battle for the Falklands'

I'll address one point the rest you can educate yourself by reading the two books, the Reason ships where hit was nothing to do with the Harrier but the fact the Ships where positioned in Coves and Bays. many of the ships where actually sacrificed to protect the landings. The geography and topography limited the ships radar ability to detect incoming attacks as the the ships where surrounded by high ground. - Read the book where Admiral Sandy woodward was unsure if San Carlos was mined, he asked a Frigate to enter San Carols, the Frigates Captain said to the admiral do you want us to zig zag a bit, so the Admiral didn't tell him the reasons for it but the Captain knew it was to see if the waters was mined. luckily it wasn't mined.

One Hundred days. by Admiral Sandy Woodward. Task Force Commander

Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings.

What's rubbish Steve? 

[Space Commander Travis]

9 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

What's rubbish Steve? 

Your arguments that the Argies were hopeless and the Sea Harrier was a load of junk, perhaps?

[RoofGardener]

18 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Rubbish. try reading 'one hundred days' and 'Battle for the Falklands'

I'll address one point the rest you can educate yourself by reading the two books, the Reason ships where hit was nothing to do with the Harrier but the fact the Ships where positioned in Coves and Bays. many of the ships where actually sacrificed to protect the landings. The geography and topography limited the ships radar ability to detect incoming attacks as the the ships where surrounded by high ground. - Read the book where Admiral Sandy woodward was unsure if San Carlos was mined, he asked a Frigate to enter San Carols, the Frigates Captain said to the admiral do you want us to zig zag a bit, so the Admiral didn't tell him the reasons for it but the Captain knew it was to see if the waters was mined. luckily it wasn't mined.

One Hundred days. by Admiral Sandy Woodward. Task Force Commander

Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings.

I wasn't so keen on the Max Hastings book, but I thought that 100 Days was WELL worth the read. 

 

[stevewinn]

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

What's rubbish Steve? 

Its clear from your original post you have numerous misunderstandings. If you are genuinely interested then you could do no wrong getting a hold of them two books, and once read see if you have the same opinions. 

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I wasn't so keen on the Max Hastings book, but I thought that 100 Days was WELL worth the read. 

 

Max Hastings book was selected for more the political side and thinking of what was going on in parliment, as you know, Max Hastings travelled with the Task Force and gives a good journalistic account of the battles, Simon Jenkins gives the account of the political impact and thinking back home in parliment. the books also great for the chronological order of events and numbers of troops, aircraft, ships involved etc..basically the strengths of both forces (at the back of the book)

As for one hundred days you cannot get better, memoirs of the task force commander taken from is daily diary. I think the two books combined allow the reader to get a good understanding of events and see the difference of how the same events are interpreted by the differing parties involved. Journalist, Political and militarily.

Both are easy reads and keep you enthralled.

[Space Commander Travis]

6 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Its clear from your original post you have numerous misunderstandings. If you are genuinely interested then you could do no wrong getting a hold of them two books, and once read see if you have the same opinions. 

I rather suspect he doesn't, and his only aim is to belittle the Old Country, once again. 

[RoofGardener]

17 hours ago, stevewinn said:

well, money but, 3 Carriers and instead of adding a 4th i'd go for two LPH's. on the subject of LPH, i notice the Italian Navys new LPH or LHD is following the UK's twin island design. The proposed French Carrier that's been cancelled/postponed also went for the twin Island design. (see last picture) Royal Navy over a hundred years of Naval aviation and carrier innovation.....

Yeah... I was gutted when I heard we where losing the HMS Ocean. Lizzie and Dukie are well and good... but... it would have been nice to keep Ocean as well. In tandem with Lizzie and Dukie, it would make a formidable expeditionary force, as well as an emergency assistance task force. (for earthquakes, volcanoes, aubergine outbreaks etcetera).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)

We've still got Albion and Bulwark, but they aren't really the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Albion_(L14). 

If we DID have a third carrier, I'd want it to be named Planey McPlaneface !

[RoofGardener]

4 hours ago, stevewinn said:

....As for one hundred days you cannot get better, memoirs of the task force commander taken from is daily diary.......

Both are easy reads and keep you enthralled.

HANDBRAKE....HANDBRAKE...HANDBRAKE.......  

Or the other lovely moment....

Quote

"Tracking suspected Argentinian surveillance aircraft....probable modified civilian airliner......  Sea Dart locked on ... ready to fire...... "

"WEPS... backtrack the course of that jet... where did it come from ? "

"Umm.... < fiddles with buttons>.... Rio de Janiero main civilian airport, sir"

"WEAPONS TIGHT... HOLD FIRE.... "

Edited August 28, 2017 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

HANDBRAKE....HANDBRAKE...HANDBRAKE.......  

Or the other lovely moment....

"Tracking suspected Argentinian surveillance aircraft....probable modified civilian airliner......  Sea Dart locked on ... ready to fire...... "

"WEPS... backtrack the course of that jet... where did it come from ? "

"Umm.... < fiddles with buttons>.... Rio de Janiero main civilian airport, sir"

"WEAPONS TIGHT... HOLD FIRE.... "

Yep it was a close run thing the civilian airliner, ( i thought it strange that Admiral Sandy Woodward thought if he'd shot it down London would have called off the task force)but the background as you'll remember was the fact the Argies used a converted passenger plane as a surveillance aircraft, and for days previous this plane was trying to find the carriers and each time the Harriers where scrambled and the "burglar" chased away. (im sure that was the 'nickname') and then that leads to the turn of events you describe, as the task force neared the Falklands the pressure mounted and the decision was taken if the "burglar" turns up again to shoot it down. and then follows,... the 'other lovely moment'

Tracking suspected Argentinian surveillance aircraft....probable modified civilian airliner......  Sea Dart locked on ... ready to fire...... "

"WEPS... backtrack the course of that jet... where did it come from ? "

"Umm.... < fiddles with buttons>.... Rio de Janiero main civilian airport, sir"

"WEAPONS TIGHT... HOLD FIRE.... "

What about on the way down the crews panicking thinking they had Submarine contact and depth charging only to discover it was Whales. which showed a soft-side of war with Admiral Sandy Woodward regretting the majestic animals deaths.

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Yeah... I was gutted when I heard we where losing the HMS Ocean. Lizzie and Dukie are well and good... but... it would have been nice to keep Ocean as well. In tandem with Lizzie and Dukie, it would make a formidable expeditionary force, as well as an emergency assistance task force. (for earthquakes, volcanoes, aubergine outbreaks etcetera).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ocean_(L12)

We've still got Albion and Bulwark, but they aren't really the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Albion_(L14). 

If we DID have a third carrier, I'd want it to be named Planey McPlaneface !

We need a HMS Ocean replacement that's for sure the Ship was built on the cheap and we've run her hard over the last few years. - The serious problem of manning numbers in the Navy means HMS Ocean is laid up a year earlier than planned and her crew transferred to HMS Prince of Wales.

Problem is trying to convince Government ministers to replace HMS Ocean without affecting numbers elsewhere. IE: reduce type 26 orders or even mothballing one of the new carriers. no doubt the QE class can do the role but you wouldn't want one of the carriers in littoral waters or venture as close to shore as HMS Ocean would.

[RoofGardener]

Hmmm.... could it be argued that the Lizzie and the Dukie together actually EXCEED the capabilities of HMS Ocean ? 

And then some ?  

Notwithstanding.... I'd prefer we had all three.  

Edited August 28, 2017 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

22 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm.... could it be argued that the Lizzie and the Dukie together actually EXCEED the capabilities of HMS Ocean ? 

And then some ?  

Notwithstanding.... I'd prefer we had all three.  

I'd say yes, exceeds Ocean, in endurance and speed, Ocean is slow at 18knots compared to 25knots, of the QE class - 'Lizzie was clocked at 28.2knots on sea trials. range wise Ocean 8,000nm. QE class 10,000. they have planned for the QE class to cover Oceans capability because HMS Prince of Wales has been configured internally to hold more Marines and their equipment. 'Lizzie' with be modified the same in her first refit.

HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will take over the role of deploying amphibious forces when HMS Ocean is decommissioned in 2018. Defence procurement minister Philip Dunne said each ship would house a force of 900 marines and aviation personnel – 210 more than Ocean.

 

Quote

 

Ministry of Defence

HMS Ocean

 

19050

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, which roles currently fulfilled by HMS Ocean will be carried out by HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales when they enter service; and if he will make a statement.

s stated in the Strategic Defence and Security Review (Cm9161), we will enhance a Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carrier to support our amphibious capability. Together with existing amphibious ships of the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary, this will provide the capacity and capability to deploy our amphibious forces.

HMS OCEAN can carry up to 690 Embarked Military Forces (EMF) - Royal Marines and Aviation Group personnel - in addition to her ship's company. She can deploy a variety of helicopter types in multiple combinations as required by her mission and role.

The QEC aircraft carriers can embark up to 900 EMF, in addition to their ship's company, in support of their missions and tasks and a flexible mix of helicopters subject to the operational tasking.

http://www.parliament.uk/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/commons/2015-12-07/19050

 

 

Quote

 

As reported previously, IHS Jane's understood that second ship Prince of Wales would likely be developed to provide increased amphibious capability, but that the work carried out on Prince of Wales to meet this requirement would also augment the ability of lead carrier Queen Elizabeth to support amphibious operations. It seems likely that both ships will be modified in the same way to deliver broadly the same amphibious capability, in terms of improving the arrangement of facilities for an embarked military force (EMF). However, work on Queen Elizabeth will be completed post-delivery, whereas time remains available to re-organise the amphibious spaces on Prince of Wales prior to build completion and to implement the modifications in a more dedicated manner.

http://www.janes.com/article/64234/uk-royal-navy-conducts-study-to-plan-amphibious-capability-integration-in-queen-elizabeth-carriers

 

Rotary role: Exploring QEC’s LPH utility

Worth a read:

http://www.janes.com/images/assets/240/73240/Rotary_role_Exploring_QECs_LPH_utility.pdf?utm_campaign=CL_Jane's 360-25-Aug-2017_PC5308_e-production_E-2661_KP_0825_0600&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua

[skookum]

Visited Portsmouth today and what an awesome sight.

 

Sadly you cannot get close enough to appreciate the scale an the angle is bad.  But it's shear size looms as you get closer.  Very impressive.