Germany nears 1990 jobless level

[Talon]

Germany nears 1990 jobless level

German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month in December - making the year's average jobless total the highest since reunification.

The seasonally adjusted jobless total rose a higher than expected 17,000 to 4.483 million, the Bundesbank said.

Allowing for changes in calculating statistics, the average number of people out of work was the highest since 1990 - or a rate of 10.8%.

Bad weather and a sluggish economy were blamed for the rise.

The increase "was due primarily to the onstart of winter", labour office chief Frank-Juergen Weise said.

Reform worries

Unadjusted, the figures showed unemployment rose 206,900 to 4.64 million - with many sectors such as construction laying off workers amid bad weather.

"The three years of stagnation in the German economy came to an end in 2004. But the upturn is still not strong enough" to boost the labour market, Mr Weise added.

News of the rise came as government welfare reforms came into force, a move that is expected to see unemployment swell still further in coming months.

Under the Hartz IV changes, the previous two tier system of benefits and support for the long term unemployed has been replaced with one flat-rate payout.

In turn, that means more people will be classified as looking for work, driving official figures higher.

'Nasty' news ahead

"Be prepared for a nasty figure for January 2005, about five million unemployed on a non-seasonally adjusted basis," warned HVB Group economist Andreas Rees.

But he did add that the numbers should "subside" throughout the year, to remain near 2004's level of 4.4 million jobless.

"I don't expect a strong and lasting turnaround until 2006," German Economy minister Wolfgang Clement said.

By 2010, however, the Hartz IV reforms should help cut the average jobless rate to between 3% and 5%, he added.

Europe's biggest economy has been too weak to create work as it struggles to shake off three years of economic stagnation.

In recent months companies such as Adam Opel - the German arm of US carmaker General Motors - and retailer KarstadtQuelle have slashed jobs.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/business/4146535.stm

See, this is why fascism is on the rise again in Germany.

[bathory]

facism is on the rise through much of europse

[girty1600]

10% unemployment!!!!!????? that's amazing.

[bathory]

aren't most socialist european countries floating around at that mark?

[AztecInca]

Geez thats horrible.Its something the government really needs to get their act togethet on, the human suffering from this is just far too great.

Down under unemployment is at record low with it hovering around 5% and even dropping under that!

[girty1600]

In the US the unemployment rate is right around 5% or below and has been for several years. Here in the mid-west it is closer to 3% and the city I live in it's around 2%. We have tons of food-service establishments here ( too many in my opinion) so even if the factories cut back on personal there are always plenty of jobs available for those who want them. Working in food service management for many years in my area taught me that it was much harder to keep good employees than find ways to pay them.

I also read that Canada's unemployment rate was near 10%, is that really true? If so, does anyone know why?

[Erikl]

See, this is why fascism is on the rise again in Germany.

No excuse.

And 10% isn't that much. Maybe it is a big number for the "use to be well fed" Western Germans ("Western" here means Western Germany vs. Eastern ), but it's not that much.

If fascism is on the rise in a country with such a horrible history about it with some low unemployment, then I'm sorry - the Germans seriously need to reavaluate their education system at once .

[bathory]

because of taxes, these countries have taxes that aren't very business friendly, also i think the welfare system also removes incentive to work (i'm being very general here, correct me if i'm wrong though)

[marslight]

The Turks in Germany are probably getting a bit nervous right about now. If a far-right government comes to power the Turks will find themselves blamed for all the country's ills and can expect discrimination and persecution. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

[Talon]

facism is on the rise through much of europse

And the rest of the world isn't much better, so don't try and turn this into an anti-european issue.

aren't most socialist european countries floating around at that mark?

Hate to break it to you, all European nations are capitalist just as much as yours.

No excuse.

And 10% isn't that much. Maybe it is a big number for the "use to be well fed" Western Germans ("Western" here means Western Germany vs. Eastern ), but it's not that much.

If fascism is on the rise in a country with such a horrible history about it with some low unemployment, then I'm sorry - the Germans seriously need to reavaluate their education system at once .

You can shout 'no excuse' all you want, doesn't matter. Thats what happens. Hitler got in during desperation during unemployment. All countries around the world vote for extremists in such times.

because of taxes, these countries have taxes that aren't very business friendly, also i think the welfare system also removes incentive to work (i'm being very general here, correct me if i'm wrong though)

Oh shut up. Just because we beleive in helping others and you believe people should in a better state of life should hold onto ever penny just proves that we have better morals than you, bugger all to do this welfare. If you even bothered to read a book on the subject and even show a little intellegence for once and educate yourself on an issue before you open your mouth and show how uneducated you are you'd know that you can only sign on welfare if you are actively looking for a job.

[Erikl]

You can shout 'no excuse' all you want, doesn't matter. Thats what happens. Hitler got in during desperation during unemployment. All countries around the world vote for extremists in such times.

You and I have a debate about that subject... let's not drag it into here as well, ok?

[Talon]

Yeah, shouldn't give each other practice

[bathory]

Oh shut up. Just because we beleive in helping others and you believe people should in a better state of life should hold onto ever penny just proves that we have better morals than you, bugger all to do this welfare. If you even bothered to read a book on the subject and even show a little intellegence for once and educate yourself on an issue before you open your mouth and show how uneducated you are you'd know that you can only sign on welfare if you are actively looking for a job.

oh please, just because someone is actively looking for a job doesn't mean they a) will get a job or have any intention of getting said jobs, i know people in australia who are on welfare and aren't actually looking for jobs, they just do the bare minimum to stay on welfare with no real intention of getting said jobs. As i said, i was being general, and it was in response to why such countries have such high unemployment rates. Is it the only reason for such high unemployment rates? no, so shut it

And the rest of the world isn't much better, so don't try and turn this into an anti-european issue.

hey your brought up facism, merely adding an additional comment to what was already offtopic:P

Hate to break it to you, all European nations are capitalist just as much as yours.

no sh**? whats your point? i was discussing reasons for high unemployment rates.

[Talon]

hey your brought up facism, merely adding an additional comment to what was already offtopic:P

Your one to talk on fascism in Europe considering how Australia treated the natives.

Hate to break it to you, all European nations are capitalist just as much as yours.

no sh**? whats your point? i was discussing reasons for high unemployment rates.

My point is their capitalists. And for all your 'no ****' you called them socialist as if somehow the left is to blame. Under socialism there can't be unemployment (unless due to injury) because in socialist systems the state recognises people's right and need to work and so will even pay people to dig holes and others to fill them right up. The concept to would lost as wasteful to capitalists such as yourself, however this is because socialist societies aren’t motivated by profit but rather the good of its people are we, unlike your own ideology of capitalism which would allow children to live in the gutter simply for an extra coin at the end of the day.

oh please, just because someone is actively looking for a job doesn't mean they a) will get a job or  have any intention of getting said jobs, i know people in australia who are on welfare and aren't actually looking for jobs, they just do the bare minimum to stay on welfare with no real intention of getting said jobs. As i said, i was being general, and it was in response to why such countries have such high unemployment rates. Is it the only reason for such high unemployment rates? no, so shut it

If you ever bothered to read Marx's work you'd find welfare cheats would come under the term lumpenproletariat who were sell-outs to the capitalists and lived off the labour of their fellow working man. In socialist societies they and others like them such as criminals would be seen as enemies of the state, and welfare kept for those the Trade Unions fought for such as the injured, poor and temporary employed. It is your capitalist system which allows for welfare cheats not the left-wing welfare system which is the only thing that separates our current society from that of a century ago when workers worked 12 hours days without breaks, no sanatory, no medical coverage, no holidays, and if they died on the job nobody blinked an eye.

If your so in love with capitalism and so hate socialism, why don't you jump into a time machine and go back to your perfect world when jobs were only gained by queuing at the docks every morning in hope your on of the 1000 picked to work that day. All for a loaf of bread to feed your pre-teenage children, who as working-class don't go to school but rather work as chimmysweeps, their legs bent like bows from rickets disease, caused by drinking polluted water because the sewage system shares its pipes with household water. And if you injury yourself, you can't go to hospital because your not rich enough, and you can't claim sick pay because welfare is frowned upon by laisez-fair authorities. Instead your family losses its main earner and survives only on the food your children bring to your table, destined to hand the same lifestyle onto their own children.

Bathory, know why I hate the ignorance of youself and others like you so much? Its because its people with ideologies like yours built poor houses which broke up families and put them into labour camps in exchange for a rood because they couldn’t find work; people like you who believed it was enough for a working-class family to live a empty flat with 2 rooms; people like though 20,000 deaths a year from hazardous work conditions was acceptable in the name of profit; people like you allowed thousands of children to die before seeing the 5th birthday because a proper health service might cost you a little extra in tax; people like you that meant that in the 1800s the average UK working-class lifespan was fell as low as 17 years, rising 25 if you were lucky.

Edited January 5, 2005 by Talon S.

[bathory]

to everything talon posted

please take what i said in context dumbass, many european countries have adopted socialist policies, whine all you want, its these policies that are causing such high rates of unemployment.

Oh and PLEASE don't even assume to know my stance on welfare in general, i do believe there needs to be systems in place to catch those that fall through the gaps, but nothing to the extent seen in europe, these countries are losing BUCKET loads of cash trying to support their welfare programs, to support their healthcare, and its only going to get worse. The money has to come from somewhere, and if things go the way they are, it won't be sustainable.

You and your god damn black and whites, pure capitalism is just as harmful as pure socialism.

Oh and hey, lets also ignore that my comments were in response to WHY there are such high f@#king unemployment rates. Australia has welfare systems, Australia has healthcare, and you'll notice its got 1/2 the unemployment rate, enjoy b****, and stop taking things to the extreme and trying to pretend thats where my position is.

Your one to talk on fascism in Europe considering how Australia treated the natives.

you've got to be kidding right?

[Talon]

please take what i said in context dumbass, many european countries have adopted socialist policies, whine all you want, its these policies that are causing such high rates of unemployment.

prove it.

context dumbass

Whoa lovely maturity. At least I just said ignorant. What age are you, 8?

Oh and PLEASE don't even assume to know my stance on welfare in general, i do believe there needs to be systems in place to catch those that fall through the gaps, but nothing to the extent seen in Europe, these countries are losing BUCKET loads of cash trying to support their welfare programs, to support their healthcare, and its only going to get worse. The money has to come from somewhere, and if things go the way they are, it won't be sustainable.

#

If so concerned about money, why don't you ask those people earning a few million a year to do something constructive with it. And I know fine well your policies I've had to put up with you droning about them for the last 13 months

You and your god damn black and whites, pure capitalism is just as harmful as pure socialism.

Prove it. We've never seen a pure socialist society, so your making up conclusions without seeing the facts. Such a fool proof method, you should give Weber a phone I'm sure he'd love to here it.

And as for black and white, if you bothered to read most of my posts you'd find I give Capitalism a lot of leeway despite hating its guts. 'Necessary evil' I'm called it one occasions.

Oh and hey, lets also ignore that my comments were in response to WHY there are such high f@#king unemployment rates. Australia has welfare systems, Australia has healthcare, and you'll notice its got 1/2 the unemployment rate, enjoy b****, and stop taking things to the extreme and trying to pretend thats where my position is.

WOW swearing now, how long did it take you, sitting their in your room, sitting in front of your comp, scratching your brain for the perfect answer before that 'intelligent' reply came to you. And for someone going on about black and whites, have you ever considered that your high rates of unemployment have nothing to do with the welfare state and instead lie with issues like falling of industrial jobs, inflation, deskilling of work and lack of bargaining power in the rise of the service industry, mechanisation, lack of foreign investment? Or is that another conclusion you came up with magically without any facts? But hell, must be the right answer cause Bathory says so.

Your one to talk on fascism in Europe considering how Australia treated the natives.

you've got to be kidding right?

No, believe it or not fascism is not located just in Europe, and yes native Australians have suffered prejudice. Why? Did you think in walked the settlers and were nice and friendly to them, didn't treat them like scum or anything no? What about that chip shop woman who was leading that Australian Nazi party a few years back, take it she was just nasty European propaganda?

I notice you didn't condemn all the suffering that has happened at the hands of states who felt so little of welfare.

[bathory]

prove it.

other western nations are experiencing similar problems in regards to deindustrialisation and such (the US for example, Australia for example), yet these countries do not have such a high rate of unemployment, which means that there are still jobs out there replacing the ones being lost.

Whoa lovely maturity. At least I just said ignorant. What age are you, 8?

ignorant vs dumbass, same meaning, dumbass rolls of the tongue allot easier though:)

If so concerned about money, why don't you ask those people earning a few million a year to do something constructive with it.

or perhaps the government could stop being wastefull with what it already has and create realistic sustainable policies instead of what is essentially a monetary blackhole?

And I know fine well your policies I've had to put up with you droning about them for the last 13 months

you obviously don't, otherwise i wouldn't have had to have mentioned it in response to your bull**** claims about what i believe.

Prove it. We've never seen a pure socialist society, so your making up conclusions without seeing the facts. Such a fool proof method, you should give Weber a phone I'm sure he'd love to here it.

has there ever been a pure capitalist society? i know that a pure capitalist society would suck donkey dick, and at the same time i know a pure socialist society is a unrealistic pipe dream...oops, i see where i went wrong, i acknoweledged a pure socialist society as something that could actually exist:)

falling of industrial jobs, inflation, deskilling of work and lack of bargaining power in the rise of the service industry, mechanisation, lack of foreign investment?

tell me, what is a major cause of this?

i can see at least two of those which scream caused by high ass taxes, falling of industrial jobs (its happening all over the west, i would imagine moreso in countries with obscene business tax rates), lack of foreign investment would be another one.

Mechanisation? Deskilling? Inflation? other countries also suffer from such problems, yet maintain a far lower unemployment rate.

No, believe it or not fascism is not located just in Europe, and yes native Australians have suffered prejudice. Why? Did you think in walked the settlers and were nice and friendly to them, didn't treat them like scum or anything no? What about that chip shop woman who was leading that Australian Nazi party a few years back, take it she was just nasty European propaganda?

...again, what the hell are you talking about? What the sh** does Australias stance on the aboriginals in the 50s have to do with now? Did i think the settlers walked in and were nice and friendly? hell no, then again, they were british:) I'm failing to see your point Talon? how is any of this relevant? Australia was a british colony up until 1901, the australian government and the people of its time then acted like *******s towards the aboriginals up until perhaps the 60s. Australian Nazi Party? you've got to be kidding, Pauline Hanson whilst not particularly bright and having many poorly thought out policies was hardly a nazi, she was against multiculturalism and for assimilation and that seemed to p*** allot of lefties off, she also wasn't a socialist:), /gg foreign press aye?

[Talon]

prove it.

other western nations are experiencing similar problems in regards to deindustrialisation and such (the US for example, Australia for example), yet these countries do not have such a high rate of unemployment, which means that there are still jobs out there replacing the ones being lost.

Still haven't proved anything. Socialism is to blame how?

Whoa lovely maturity. At least I just said ignorant. What age are you, 8?

ignorant vs dumbass, same meaning, dumbass rolls of the tongue allot easier though:)

Noooo, 'ignorant' is saying your not in posession of all the facts, 'dumbass' is just an insult people revert to when they don't have anything intellegent left to say.

Anyway, I was talking about you saying

f@#king unemployment rates

enjoy b****

I can only assume the missing letters are 'itch'

or perhaps the government could stop being wastefull with what it already has and create realistic sustainable policies instead of what is essentially a monetary blackhole?

Better policies would help, but that blackholes is needed for the poorest in society to live off. I anything its the wealthfare policies, not the welfare that is the waste of money.

And I know fine well your policies I've had to put up with you droning about them for the last 13 months

you obviously don't, otherwise i wouldn't have had to have mentioned it in response to your bull**** claims about what i believe.

More mature swearing, how long did it find you to find that word in a Thesaurus?

Prove it. We've never seen a pure socialist society, so your making up conclusions without seeing the facts. Such a fool proof method, you should give Weber a phone I'm sure he'd love to here it.

has there ever been a pure capitalist society? i know that a pure capitalist society would suck donkey dick, and at the same time i know a pure socialist society is a unrealistic pipe dream...oops, i see where i went wrong, i acknoweledged a pure socialist society as something that could actually exist:)

Sure there have been pure capitalist nations, like all those ones which followed Laizze-fare politics were everyone dying I mentioned a few posts back. Took the Labour Parties, Trade Unions and Socialists a few hundred years to change it into this Liberal Democratic Capitalism that we have now and win the basic human rights and the concessions you take for granted.

Actually You can't say its a pipe dream as you can't predict the future. You don't think it can exist, doesn't mean it can't theoritically exist. There is a difference. Unless you can jump into a time machine and look at all the governments to come until our species blows up you can't say there never will be. To do so is again ignorant.

falling of industrial jobs, inflation, deskilling of work and lack of bargaining power in the rise of the service industry, mechanisation, lack of foreign investment?

tell me, what is a major cause of this?

i can see at least two of those which scream caused by high ass taxes, falling of industrial jobs (its happening all over the west, i would imagine moreso in countries with obscene business tax rates), lack of foreign investment would be another one.

Mechanisation? Deskilling? Inflation? other countries also suffer from such problems, yet maintain a far lower unemployment rate.

You seem to love blaming everyone on something. As for whats the cause, I'll enlighten you.

falling of industrial jobs - industries like coal mining, ship building, textiles etc can be done more effiently by machine now and costs less to the emloyers, so fewer jobs here are the result of mechinzation. Bugger all to do with taxes.

inflation - Stock crashes or a country spending more money that it actually has an gets into debt, lack of public spending, devaluation of the currency, problems with foreign import/exports. Actualluy increasing Taxes is most commonly used to fight inflation as it gets money back into the economy.

deskilling of work - again mechanisation. No trades or skills anymore to barter for better pay etc, its no longer a case were only a blacksmith or riviter etc can do their job, now anyone off the street can cause its a production line work.

mechanisation - as with deskilling of work and fall of industrial work

lack of foreign investment - could be a number of reasons, lack of skilled labour, cheaper in Third World nations, inflation in the country, repuation, avaiablity of funds etc etc

...again, what the hell are you talking about? What the sh** does Australias stance on the aboriginals in the 50s have to do with now? Did i think the settlers walked in and were nice and friendly? hell no, then again, they were british:) I'm failing to see your point Talon? how is any of this relevant? Australia was a british colony up until 1901, the australian government and the people of its time then acted like *******s towards the aboriginals up until perhaps the 60s. Australian Nazi Party? you've got to be kidding, Pauline Hanson whilst not particularly bright and having many poorly thought out policies was hardly a nazi, she was against multiculturalism and for assimilation and that seemed to p*** allot of lefties off, she also wasn't a socialist:), /gg foreign press aye?

Fifty years ago? What are you talking about, I'm talking about that chipshop woman about 5 years ago at most. And just because she wasn't as organised as the Nazis doesn't mean it didn't have to be a fascist style party. My point is your in really no place to talk about racism in Europe when you got your own problems over there.

I'm failing to see your point Talon?

I'll use smaller words next time.

[bathory]

Still haven't proved anything. Socialism is to blame how?

i'm saying its pretty clear that the countries that have adopted policies to that extent are the ones with high unemployment rates.

Better policies would help, but that blackholes is needed for the poorest in society to live off. I anything its the wealthfare policies, not the welfare that is the waste of money.

The blackhole isn't needed, healthcare for example is getting more and more expensive, the costs are growing everyyear, its not just the poor that are using it.

I(f) anything its the wealthfare policies, not the welfare that is the waste of money

my stance completely

we need some welfare, we need some government healthcare, we need unions etc etc

just not to the extent seen in some countries.

Sure there have been pure capitalist nations, like all those ones which followed Laizze-fare politics were everyone dying I mentioned a few posts back. Took the Labour Parties, Trade Unions and Socialists a few hundred years to change it into this Liberal Democratic Capitalism that we have now and win the basic human rights and the concessions you take for granted.

Are you sure?

"Historically, has a capitalist society ever existed?

No. A pure laissez-faire capitalist society has never existed. The closest any country has come to pure capitalism is 19th century America."

falling of industrial jobs - industries like coal mining, ship building, textiles etc can be done more effiently by machine now and costs less to the emloyers, so fewer jobs here are the result of mechinzation. Bugger all to do with taxes.

actually you will find that most of these jobs aren't being replaced by machines, but by overseas jobs in industrialising(or whatever the word is) nations, why? whats the incentive to stay when everything is much cheaper over in som developing country? high ass taxes aren't going to exactly have them staying. I also think i should remind you that the US also is going through this, (millions of jobs lost in the sector) but is retaining an unemployment rate of around 5% because it has jobs in other areas (boring low paying jobs, but jobs at anyrate) to soak up the losses.

inflation - Stock crashes or a country spending more money that it actually has an gets into debt, lack of public spending, devaluation of the currency, problems with foreign import/exports. Actualluy increasing Taxes is most commonly used to fight inflation as it gets money back into the economy.

looks at the monetary black hole:P, high taxes don't exactly promote public spending, hell i know i stopped buying lots of goods once the gst came into effect in australia. But hey, ill concede that point, they are all going through inflation, hows canadas dollar doing?

lack of foreign investment - could be a number of reasons, lack of skilled labour, cheaper in Third World nations, inflation in the country, repuation, avaiablity of funds etc etc

i skipped the other two as they aren't direct causes of job loss, well mechanisation is, but its not that big a deal, in comparison to say ohh jobs going overseas:P, lack of foreign capital aye? lack of skilled labour? what happened to the deskilling of labour? cheaper in Third World nations? totally, you don't get taxed up the wazoo for starters, inflation must be a huge problem these days, with the euro gaining value:( etc etc

Fifty years ago? What are you talking about, I'm talking about that chipshop woman about 5 years ago at most. And just because she wasn't as organised as the Nazis doesn't mean it didn't have to be a fascist style party. My point is your in really no place to talk about racism in Europe when you got your own problems over there.

the Chip Shop woman you've shown zero knowledge about? Fascist style party? please oh beacon of light, tell me more about this nazi party?

I'll use smaller words next time.

no its ok, i understood your point, i was giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that it was something superior to the retarded one you made:(

"My point is your in really no place to talk about racism in Europe when you got your own problems over there."

oh yeah good job, our problems are but a mere drop in the ocean compared to europes, and beyond that, your arguement still doesn't stop being stupid:(

[Talon]

i'm saying its pretty clear that the countries that have adopted policies to that extent are the ones with high unemployment rates.

Not true, countries vary in their resignation of laize-fare. Much of western Europe such as Italy and the Uk are about as righty-wing as the US; Spain has always had problems and has never had socialists in power until last year; West Germany is pretty propsperious and has some of the strongest labour movements in Europe, yet its don't fine, its the undustrialised East Germany which are giving off these results. As for Sweden, its propabably the most left-wing nat5ion int Europe and its always the top of the charts when its comes to health, individual properity etc

You conclusions again lack any backing in fact.

The blackhole isn't needed, healthcare for example is getting more and more expensive, the costs are growing everyyear, its not just the poor that are using it.

Well part of it is idiots such as smokers wasting NHS time and money with their self inficted illlnesses. And what do you propose, going back to system where everyone pays for themselves, and the average person can't afford decent treatents cause its to costly? Rights to a health service is covered under the declaration of Social Rights and is recognised as a human right.

I(f) anything its the wealthfare policies, not the welfare that is the waste of money

my stance completely

we need some welfare, we need some government healthcare, we need unions etc etc

just not to the extent seen in some countries.

No, you obviously son't understand what Wealthfare is. Wealthfare is were the rich are given extra privilages and rights, e.g. such as equal taxes no matter what you earn, tax-cuts for the right, private education etc Wealthfare is not the same as welfare.

Are you sure?

"Historically, has a capitalist society ever existed?

No. A pure laissez-faire capitalist society has never existed. The closest any country has come to pure capitalism is 19th century America."

Nooooooooooo... laissez-faire politics were rife throughout the western world from the 16th to mid-18th century. And even that mid-18th century to 1880 era only issued polices banning children under 8 and woman from working in mines. Not until after 1880 did Labour movements put enough pressure to get payed-holidays, min wage in power industries, a 2 day weekend, holidays, the right to compensation if you are injured at work, toilets in the work place, the right to a coffee break at work, etc etc

laissez-faire HAVE exsisted in the past, they were everywhere.

actually you will find that most of these jobs aren't being replaced by machines, but by overseas jobs in industrialising(or whatever the word is) nations, why? whats the incentive to stay when everything is much cheaper over in som developing country? high ass taxes aren't going to exactly have them staying. I also think i should remind you that the US also is going through this, (millions of jobs lost in the sector) but is retaining an unemployment rate of around 5% because it has jobs in other areas (boring low paying jobs, but jobs at anyrate) to soak up the losses.

Not really, the movement of jobs to the Third World is a rather resent trend which appeared after the 1960s and is mainly only in the manufacturing jobs and more recently call centres from the service industry. The area thats I mentioned in the heavy industried such as coal mining and ship building haven't travelled abroad (you can't more a coal mine can you?) they simply used mechanisation.

hows canadas dollar doing?

No idea, Google it

the Chip Shop woman you've shown zero knowledge about? Fascist style party? please oh beacon of light, tell me more about this nazi party?

Zero Knowledge, google it and I find her name ( Pauline HANSON) and lovely quotes like these;

"Japan, India, Burma, Ceylon and every new African nation are fiercely

anti-white and anti-one another. Do we want or need any of these people here? I am one red-blooded Australian who says no and who speaks for 90 % of Australians."

So in fact, its you have 'Zero Knowledge' about your own polictics. You do read news papers right?

tell me more about this nazi party?

Google says she's an Independent , thus she doesn't have a party See now I as a foreigner can be forgiven for assuming an MP would have a political Party behind them, but as its your country you really should have known that But then since you didn't even know enough about Australian politics to know whose you members of Parliament are, I guess it can't be assumed you know about the parties either.

i skipped the other two as they aren't direct causes of job loss, well mechanisation is, but its not that big a deal, in comparison to say ohh jobs going overseas:P, lack of foreign capital aye? lack of skilled labour? what happened to the deskilling of labour? cheaper in Third World nations? totally, you don't get taxed up the wazoo for starters, inflation must be a huge problem these days, with the euro gaining value:( etc etc

Deskilling not important to job losses? Are you totally ignorant? It removes all bargaining power and makes the term ‘job security’ means swat. Mechanisation not a big deal?! It means that you can get a machine to do the work of 20 people, OF COURSE IT’S A BIG DEAL! Foreign invest in big, but you can’t right off the other factors! Then again, I don’t expect someone who doesn’t know about his own political parties would understand the ins and outs of the Labour Force.

I'll use smaller words next time.

no its ok, i understood your point, i was giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that it was something superior to the retarded one you made:(

How could be giving me the benefit of the doubt about what I said when you openly admitted you didn’t know what I was saying?

oh yeah good job, our problems are but a mere drop in the ocean compared to europes,

What are you talking about the UK’s economy is the strongest its been since Thatcher, and Germany (despite its unemployment) is still one of the most productive nations in the world; Scotland was declared to have made more technological advancements per head than any other nation; the USSR has fallen and the EU is bringing about peace and prosperity.

What’s Australia got under its sleeve? Former prison colony.

and beyond that, your arguement still doesn't stop being stupid:(

Stupid? At least mine have backing, your didn’t even know the your own MP, couldn’t tell she was an independent, have no idea about social history; couldn't tell the difference between welfare and wealthfar; no idea about capitalism and socialism; and needed me to use smaller words so you could follow the argument.

Edited January 7, 2005 by Talon S.