Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Lilly

Why I Think God Exists

637 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Wes4747
3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

The Universe and our understanding of it is still a hot topic in physics.  I just finished a book by Brian Greene called "The Hidden Universe".  He is a physics professor at Columbia.  He has also done a TED talk on string theory about 15 min. long.  The math that underpins relativity and quantum theory points to the Big Bang not being a singular event.   In fact there may be an infinity of bubble universes that pop into being fold time and space around themselves and separate themselves from our universe forever.  We may live in one such bubble universe that spawned in an older existing universe.  The Big Bang is not necessarily the ultimate beginning, but then so what.  It does not change our ability to believe or not, even if we only live in one of an infinite number of other universes.

Before we can intelligently discuss a "universe" or many, i believe we need a concrete definition based on fact..

Do theories lead us there or discovery?

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tatetopa

Great question.  Eddington observing the light of distant stars during a solar eclipse in 1919 verified that massive objects do bend space time around themselves.  This was an observation that was predicted by Einstein's theory of Relativity.  Accurate positioning that we take for granted every time we use Google Maps and ask for directions is provided using satellites.  The satellites need to take into account Einstein's equations or they lose accuracy over time.  It seems like we have a bit of evidence for Einstein equations describing a useful model of how the universe is.  Some people can take those equations that are consistent, and verified by observations and extend the math to  apply to things we have not yet seen and may never see.  A bubble universe does not interact with its neighbors, is not detectable and never will be.  So I guess it too is a matter of faith in mathematics and where it leads.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tom the Photon

Hi all - it's an interesting debate about a fundamental topic, but it only takes seconds to deconstruct Lilly's original logic - 

"Nothing can’t bring forth something."

E = mc2 tells us matter and energy are two ways of looking at the same thing.  Matter and energy are constantly swapping.  In the 'vacuum' of 'empty' space particle-antiparticle pairs are constantly created at random, just to annihilate each other nanoseconds later.  Occasionally one of these particles is destroyed by something else (e.g. a black hole) leaving matter apparently created from nothing.  It's no mystery - just statistics.  Eventually this new particle will meet its antiparticle created in a similar way and annihilation will occur after all.

Consider a void, infinite in time and space.  Within this pre-universe it's inevitable that random particles will spontaneously appear.  Perhaps once in 101000000000 a particle will appear that has odd properties that leads to an entirely new universe?  If our understanding of time is tied to this particular universe of ours, then in the pre-universe such an event is not only likely but inevitable.  

So - by all means believe in God to explain the whole of creation and the vastness of that-which-we-cannot-begin-to-comprehend, but accept that our pitiful universe is just a quantum blip, a fortunate mistake, that is doomed to collapse or touch an antiuniverse, and when that happens everything that we know of, everything we understand as 'real', all the art, music and technology that humans have created, will cease to exist.  Forever.  

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Wes4747

Well, then theres that ^

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
internetperson
59 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I just finished a book by Brian Greene called "The Hidden Universe".

Did you like it? I will have to check this out he did a fantastic documentary 'The Elegant Universe' or something like that on string theory.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Darkenpath25

UM.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
NightScreams

Well if we are to believe Brian Cox's results of the Hadron Collider proving that ghosts can't exist then it wouldn't really matter if a God exists or not if we have no afterlife. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ghosts-brian-cox-large-hadron-collider-cern-real-truth-standard-model-physics-a7598026.html

Edited by NightScreams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Claire.
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

The Universe and our understanding of it is still a hot topic in physics.  I just finished a book by Brian Greene called "The Hidden Universe".  He is a physics professor at Columbia.  He has also done a TED talk on string theory about 15 min. long.  The math that underpins relativity and quantum theory points to the Big Bang not being a singular event.   In fact there may be an infinity of bubble universes that pop into being fold time and space around themselves and separate themselves from our universe forever.  We may live in one such bubble universe that spawned in an older existing universe.  The Big Bang is not necessarily the ultimate beginning, but then so what.  It does not change our ability to believe or not, even if we only live in one of an infinite number of other universes.

I've read Greene's The Elegant Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos, but not that one. The concept of a never-ending series of big bangs and of a bubble universe is something that cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin has also put forth.

The following is a short video of him explaining how the universe could have been created from nothing, and how the concept of something from nothing does not necessarily violate any conservation laws. It's really quite interesting.

Also interesting is this Q&A with Vilenkin from TuftsNow. in which he's asked (among other things) what he thinks of the claims that his work actually proves the existence of God.or at least a divine moment of intervention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Imaginarynumber1
23 minutes ago, Claire. said:

 how the universe could have been created from nothing, and how the concept of something from nothing does not necessarily violate any conservation laws.

 

It's this part that trips people up and makes then insert their god(s), though there is no need for it and it really just further complicates matters and does nothing but inflate their own self worth. 

 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astra.

Was the Universe a cosmic accident, or was it created by intelligent design (such as God) is one of the biggest mysteries that still today stump and cause much debate between some of the most greatest scientists, religious folk, and philosopher's.

Personally, and only in my opinion. I find it difficult to get my head around a possible invisible, and supremely intelligent entity that kicked started the beginning of the Universe from nothingness. 

I personally lean more towards the random and cosmic accident theory. Something tremendous went 'bang' because of certain natural gases and matter...that collided...and there after, set off a cause and effect situation that spawned more infinite Universe's and galaxies over billions and billions of years that are impossible to measure or calculate.
   

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately

Personally, my beliefs tend to lean towards an apatheist's view in the way that if there was some being of unfathomable intelligence that initiated the 'beginning' they don't have any impact on our current lives. If we were ever to discover the existence of such a being, I wouldn't be living my life differently because there would be no viable reason to do so.

As incredibly fascinating as it would be to have an answer to the question of our existence, I prefer to look toward the things that actually have a direct impact on our lives. Once we become 'all-powerful' and have solved all our worldly problems/know everything there is to know about the contents of our universe perhaps we can look into the universe's initial origins. Until such a time I think we should turn our efforts to questions that are within our grasp of understanding.

If we were to find out that we were created by something (I'm opposed to using the word god as it has too many religious attachments) our next question would be 'why?' which will only lead to more questions.

^_^

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a spiritual person, but finding out there is/isn't a being that created our universe will have absolutely no impact on my spiritual beliefs.

Edited by Unfortunately
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tatetopa
2 hours ago, internetperson said:

Did you like it? I will have to check this out he did a fantastic documentary 'The Elegant Universe' or something like that on string theory.

Yes I did enjoy it very much.  It covered a number of possible ways there might be parallel universes.  His group appears to be pretty strong string theory investigators and proponents.  In the 70' and 80's string theory went from being all that and a bag of chips to a flawed dead end.  New mathematical exploration and results have brought it back to relevancy.   It is hard to imagine 10 dimensions plus time, so string theory  doesn't fit well into our perception of reality.  He does a great job of revealing the underlying principles for the math impaired like me. I like trying to get my head around the new ideas as they come along.   Good luck.  I hope you enjoy his books. Be awesome.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tatetopa
41 minutes ago, Unfortunately said:

As incredibly fascinating as it would be to have an answer to the question of our existence, I prefer to look toward the things that actually have a direct impact on our lives. Once we become 'all-powerful' and have solved all our worldly problems/know everything there is to know about the contents of our universe perhaps we can look into the universe's initial origins. Until such a time I think we should turn our efforts to questions that are within our grasp of understanding.

If you think about it, we have only been working on modern mathematical models of the Universe for the last 300 or so years since Newton.  I would find it a little disappointing to think we could figure it all out any time soon.  Its a little like getting to the end of a book or game and and thinking there should have been more.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately
6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

If you think about it, we have only been working on modern mathematical models of the Universe for the last 300 or so years since Newton.  I would find it a little disappointing to think we could figure it all out any time soon.  Its a little like getting to the end of a book or game and and thinking there should have been more.

I think it's more along the lines of trying to read a book whilst only having an infinitesimal understanding of the language it's written in. ^_^

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fred_mc

I believe that what has always existed, the foundation for everything, is chaos. From chaos, anything can, and will, eventually emerge, so even ordered sustainable structures like the one we are living in. We can still see traces of randomness in quantum physics where physical laws for example forbid knowing both momentum and location accurately at the same time.

Edited by fred_mc
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trenix
3 hours ago, Tom the Photon said:

Hi all - it's an interesting debate about a fundamental topic, but it only takes seconds to deconstruct Lilly's original logic - 

"Nothing can’t bring forth something."

E = mc2 tells us matter and energy are two ways of looking at the same thing.  Matter and energy are constantly swapping.  In the 'vacuum' of 'empty' space particle-antiparticle pairs are constantly created at random, just to annihilate each other nanoseconds later.  Occasionally one of these particles is destroyed by something else (e.g. a black hole) leaving matter apparently created from nothing.  It's no mystery - just statistics.  Eventually this new particle will meet its antiparticle created in a similar way and annihilation will occur after all.

Consider a void, infinite in time and space.  Within this pre-universe it's inevitable that random particles will spontaneously appear.  Perhaps once in 101000000000 a particle will appear that has odd properties that leads to an entirely new universe?  If our understanding of time is tied to this particular universe of ours, then in the pre-universe such an event is not only likely but inevitable.  

So - by all means believe in God to explain the whole of creation and the vastness of that-which-we-cannot-begin-to-comprehend, but accept that our pitiful universe is just a quantum blip, a fortunate mistake, that is doomed to collapse or touch an antiuniverse, and when that happens everything that we know of, everything we understand as 'real', all the art, music and technology that humans have created, will cease to exist.  Forever.  

Interesting ideas and read, except some mistakes, like our universe being formed, is impossible, at least that's what I believe through modern day logic. Not only will the creation of a universe be consider a miracle by how low of a chance it could possibly happen by probability, but what about the way our planet has formed, the way our atmosphere was created, the way our organisms mutually assist one another to live, whether directly or indirectly. What about the fact that if we were too far or too close to the sun there would be not live on earth. You can go on and on with the what ifs, but it adds a lot to the table. It's essentially like throwing a brick in the sky and expecting it to fall and construct a house eventually. Some people may believe that, but I don't. There is more to life than randomness. This is not to say that by chance, things don't happen, but I've seen plenty in life where things happen for a reason.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astra.

An interesting view point from Neil de Grasse Tyson concerning God, science, and the Universe.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately
2 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Interesting ideas and read, except some mistakes, like our universe being formed, is impossible, at least that's what I believe through modern day logic. Not only will the creation of a universe be consider a miracle by how low of a chance it could possibly happen by probability, but what about the way our planet has formed, the way our atmosphere was created, the way our organisms mutually assist one another to live, whether directly or indirectly. What about the fact that if we were too far or too close to the sun there would be not live on earth. You can go on and on with the what ifs, but it adds a lot to the table. It's essentially like throwing a brick in the sky and expecting it to fall and construct a house eventually. Some people may believe that, but I don't. There is more to life than randomness. This is not to say that by chance, things don't happen, but I've seen plenty in life where things happen for a reason.

Please don't forget to state that that this is your opinion as saying that people have made 'mistakes' infers that what you know is true when that isn't the case. It cannot be classed as "Impossible" if there is a chance of it happening, however low the chance is; if we were to examine this through modern-day logic it would be: possible, but not probable.  :)

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately
4 minutes ago, Astra. said:

An interesting view point from Neil de Grasse Tyson concerning God, science, and the Universe.

 

  • I watched this earlier today! It's a great video, from what I've seen so far I'm definitely a fan of Neil de Grasse's viewpoints. He seems like a very astute fellow. :D
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Astra.
2 minutes ago, Unfortunately said:
  • I watched this earlier today! It's a great video, from what I've seen so far I'm definitely a fan of Neil de Grasse's viewpoints. He seems like a very astute fellow. :D

Yes, I like him very much as well. He doesn't pull any punches, and he also has a great sense of humour to boot. :tu:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fred_mc
3 hours ago, Tom the Photon said:

Hi all - it's an interesting debate about a fundamental topic, but it only takes seconds to deconstruct Lilly's original logic - 

"Nothing can’t bring forth something."

E = mc2 tells us matter and energy are two ways of looking at the same thing.  Matter and energy are constantly swapping.  In the 'vacuum' of 'empty' space particle-antiparticle pairs are constantly created at random, just to annihilate each other nanoseconds later.  Occasionally one of these particles is destroyed by something else (e.g. a black hole) leaving matter apparently created from nothing.  It's no mystery - just statistics.  Eventually this new particle will meet its antiparticle created in a similar way and annihilation will occur after all.

Consider a void, infinite in time and space.  Within this pre-universe it's inevitable that random particles will spontaneously appear.  Perhaps once in 101000000000 a particle will appear that has odd properties that leads to an entirely new universe?  If our understanding of time is tied to this particular universe of ours, then in the pre-universe such an event is not only likely but inevitable.  

So - by all means believe in God to explain the whole of creation and the vastness of that-which-we-cannot-begin-to-comprehend, but accept that our pitiful universe is just a quantum blip, a fortunate mistake, that is doomed to collapse or touch an antiuniverse, and when that happens everything that we know of, everything we understand as 'real', all the art, music and technology that humans have created, will cease to exist.  Forever.  

Yes, I can add that if we're looking for something that has always existed in this context I guess that we can say that energy has always existed. Vacuum is not empty as many people believe but it consists of fluctuating fields of energy.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tatetopa
11 minutes ago, Trenix said:

Interesting ideas and read, except some mistakes, like our universe being formed, is impossible, at least that's what I believe through modern day logic. Not only will the creation of a universe be consider a miracle by how low of a chance it could possibly happen by probability, but what about the way our planet has formed, the way our atmosphere was created, the way our organisms mutually assist one another to live, whether directly or indirectly. What about the fact that if we were too far or too close to the sun there would be not live on earth. You can go on and on with the what ifs, but it adds a lot to the table. It's essentially like throwing a brick in the sky and expecting it to fall and construct a house eventually. Some people may believe that, but I don't. There is more to life than randomness. This is not to say that by chance, things don't happen, but I've seen plenty in life where things happen for a reason.

Trenex, that is one way to think about it.  The anthropic principle might be another. In a nut shell it says that we live in a universe in which the physical constants; Cosmological constant, charge of the electron, force of gravitation and so on are friendly to the forming of galaxies, hence stars, planets, and life.  There are an infinite number of universes with different constants that don't foster the formation of galaxies, stars and life. We live in one that does.  Likewise, there are an infinity of planets at the wrong distance from their suns that do not harbor life.  We are here because the numbers lined up in our favor.  It doesn't indicate any special favor.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trenix
11 minutes ago, Unfortunately said:

Please don't forget to state that that this is your opinion as saying that people have made 'mistakes' infers that what you know is true when that isn't the case. It cannot be classed as "Impossible" if there is a chance of it happening, however low the chance is; if we were to examine this through modern-day logic it would be: possible, but not probable.  :)

Clearly there is proof, data, statistics, that it's possible, mainly because we're existing right now, right? However that data in my opinion is meaningless. So what, you're saying it's possible to create a universe? Prove it. Show me an instance outside our own universe which we know nothing about how it was exactly created. None exist. All these theories of our existence are just wishful thinking, bunch of ideas that are no different than someone from a religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unfortunately
1 minute ago, Trenix said:

Clearly there is proof, data, statistics, that it's possible, mainly because we're existing right now, right? However that data in my opinion is meaningless. So what, you're saying it's possible to create a universe? Prove it. Show me an instance outside our own universe which we know nothing about how it was exactly created. None exist. All these theories of our existence are just wishful thinking, bunch of ideas that are no different than someone from a religion.

What? Clearly you misunderstood me. 

Quote

Interesting ideas and read, except some mistakes, like our universe being formed, is impossible, at least that's what I believe through modern day logic. 

This is what I was referring to. I stated that this statement wasn't true because the impossibility of it cannot be proven, meaning that it is theoretically possible in regards to the laws that govern the universe as we have so far come to understand them. Hence, possible but not probable. I was telling you what using modern-day logic would tell us, regardless of what I personally do/don't believe. If the laws do not prevent something from being a possibility, then that something is theoretically possible until such a time as we expand our knowledge on the laws and can definitively test it. Does that help you understand what I was explaining? :)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trenix
6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Trenex, that is one way to think about it.  The anthropic principle might be another. In a nut shell it says that we live in a universe in which the physical constants; Cosmological constant, charge of the electron, force of gravitation and so on are friendly to the forming of galaxies, hence stars, planets, and life.  There are an infinite number of universes with different constants that don't foster the formation of galaxies, stars and life. We live in one that does.  Likewise, there are an infinity of planets at the wrong distance from their suns that do not harbor life.  We are here because the numbers lined up in our favor.  It doesn't indicate any special favor.

Very reasonable argument. But I still believe our planet has quite a lot of perfections for it to not consider it some sort of miracle. The idea that our universe was created and then life somehow came about, is the equivalent of two big bang theories. Don't get me wrong, I believe in probability. For example, flipping a coin will eventually land on the side you want. Yet flipping a coin long enough wont magically make it become a dollar. This is what I believe, but who knows, maybe it's possible. Maybe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.