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Lilly

Why I Think God Exists

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GlitterRose
7 minutes ago, AustinHinton said:

"No man has seen god" One part of the Bible. 

"Man has seen god" another part of the Bible. 

If even the Bible cannot decide weither or not man has seen god, how can we believe the statements of people who claim to see/hear god? 

Well, we can't. And even if we see/hear God ourselves...we have to ask whether or not we're reliable on that. On top of which, how could we possibly know it's actually God? 

Edited by ChaosRose
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Will Do
1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

Well, we can't. And even if we see/hear God ourselves...we have to ask whether or not we're reliable on that. On top of which, how could we possibly know it's actually God? 

Jesus said "He who has seen me has seen the Father."

 

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Galactic Goatman
14 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Well, we can't. And even if we see/hear God ourselves...we have to ask whether or not we're reliable on that. On top of which, how could we possibly know it's actually God? 

I remember a quote about this:

"If you hear the voice of god, you are either schizophrenic or you're lying." 

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Mr Walker
On 05/08/2017 at 11:12 PM, AustinHinton said:

I remember a quote about this:

"If you hear the voice of god, you are either schizophrenic or you're lying." 

Or you actually  heard the voice of god. :)

Only someone who believed gods did not exist, or communicate with humans, would believe  the statement above. It is a belief statement, and demonstrably untrue, given that  millions of humans who are neither mentally unwell NOR lying, hear the voice of  a god who helps, protects, and guides them, in their life.    The one caveat is how we define and label the beings we call gods .

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GlitterRose
On 8/5/2017 at 6:42 AM, AustinHinton said:

I remember a quote about this:

"If you hear the voice of god, you are either schizophrenic or you're lying." 

Or maybe the voice is lying. 

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Mr Walker
13 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Or maybe the voice is lying. 

Now THAT always is a real possibility.

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Blood_Sacrifice

Haven’t read the thread, but Lily’s argument resonated with my view on God.

1. Everything that exist must have a cause preceding it.

2. The universe exists. Life exists.

3. Based on point #1, the universe and all that is in it must have a cause preceding it. Let’s call it the ‘First Cause’.

4. However, whatever the First Cause is, has to be uncaused itself. Because if the First Cause had another cause preceding it, then it couldn’t be the First Cause (the cause preceding it would be – and you could make the same argument for that one as well). Therefore, the First Cause – whatever you call it, or however you perceive it – has to be uncaused. In other words, the ‘First Uncaused Cause’ has to exist outside of the dimension of spacetime and thus remain eternal.

5. God is an interchangeable name for the ‘First Uncaused Cause’.

(If you feel the word God is too religiously-oriented, you could call it Nature, Universe, Multiverse, First Cause, Prime Mover, the Truth, Reality, etc – but changing the name won’t change the fact that there still is One Uncaused Source from which all came to being).

People would of course argue (rightly so) – why couldn’t the Universe itself be the First Cause? Well, you see – if you take the universe as the First Cause, then the Universe becomes your ‘God’. This is a Pantheistic view where God is seen as synonymous with the Universe and the totality of existence. Same goes for believing the singularity, or the energy or quantum fluctuations that led to Big Bang as the first cause – you turn them into your God.

Another counterpoint might pop up that how do we know if the First Cause is Omnipotent, Omniscient, testing us and stuffs like that. Well … we don’t, and there is no rule book that says God has to have those traits. Those are religious notions of God in which even I don’t believe in. IMO, God as a concept is much bigger than the religious notions we have been taught, and maybe bigger even than what our mind can perceive.

God doesn’t have to be an anthropomorphic figure as we have been told. It probably doesn’t even have be conscious or ‘looking after us’ or ‘testing us’.

To me God is equivalent to the Truth, however you perceive the Truth to be.

 

edit - that said, I am as irreligious as one can be. I don't believe in the Abrahamic God, or most of the religious notions of God.

 

Edited by Blood_Sacrifice

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Blood_Sacrifice
On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 7:53 AM, Claire. said:

It's a shame the philosophers pushing this argument knew nothing about quantum mechanics and inflationary cosmology because they would then have argued that what was in place before the Big Bang were the laws of physics, not God — because the laws that govern the something-from-nothing creation of our universe are a far more persuasive argument than that of a cause-exempt, fantastical, eternal being.

Is there any idea on how the laws of physics/nature came into being? If the laws formed slightly differently, then we probably wouldn't be here to ask this question. Were they always there?

By the way, I am not advocating God here - I am certainly not trying to convert anyone here by saying God created them. I am looking for a scientific answer, so if anyone knows the origin of the cosmological constants and laws of nature, then please let me know.

 

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Scudbuster
On 8/4/2017 at 7:12 PM, AustinHinton said:

"No man has seen god" One part of the Bible. 

"Man has seen god" another part of the Bible. 

If even the Bible cannot decide weither or not man has seen god, how can we believe the statements of people who claim to see/hear god? 

Well the bible is not the word of a "god', it's simply the collective works of some 35-40 ancient soothsayers, village elders, self styled visionaries, wanna be's, etc. etc. Historians and researchers know this. Plus it was written, re written, translated, re translated, and much of the original writings were were twisted over the eons. These guys operated in a scientific vacuum, they didn't have a clue. They were the original flat earthers, the sun orbits us crowd, their view was "we are the end all, be all of the universe" - and "It's all about us, yes indeed"....!  It's a collection of stories, and there are some fine observations in there in regard to the tendencies and wisdom of human nature, I'll give it that. But it's full of contradictions and errors such as what you just pointed out. So for some to call it the word of a god, that's a monstrosity of a joke. Plus, to indoctrinate our children, to scare the starch out of them at such young ages (ie you're going to hell ), that is simply abuse, plain and simple. Religion is built on fear, ignorance, shame, and a lust for power, all reflecting the true "dark side" of us homo sapiens.

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GlitterRose
10 minutes ago, Scudbuster said:

Well the bible is not the word of a "god', it's simply the collective works of some 35-40 ancient soothsayers, village elders, self styled visionaries, wanna be's, etc. etc. Historians and researchers know this. Plus it was written, re written, translated, re translated, and much of the original writings were were twisted over the eons. These guys operated in a scientific vacuum, they didn't have a clue. They were the original flat earthers, the sun orbits us crowd, their view was "we are the end all, be all of the universe" - and "It's all about us, yes indeed"....!  It's a collection of stories, and there are some fine observations in there in regard to the tendencies and wisdom of human nature, I'll give it that. But it's full of contradictions and errors such as what you just pointed out. So for some to call it the word of a god, that's a monstrosity of a joke. Plus, to indoctrinate our children, to scare the starch out of them at such young ages (ie you're going to hell ), that is simply abuse, plain and simple. Religion is built on fear, ignorance, shame, and a lust for power, all reflecting the true "dark side" of us homo sapiens.

Not to mention most of it was passed down by word of mouth for many years before ever being written down at all.  (Ever play whisper down the lane?)

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back to earth

And goes back all the way, in essence , to the sacrificial culture of the early Aryans .  

 

 

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Will Do
1 hour ago, Scudbuster said:

Religion is built on fear, ignorance, shame, and a lust for power, all reflecting the true "dark side" of us homo sapiens.

This is true, but only for primitive evolved religion.

Revealed religion is different however and always stands in stark contrast to evolved religion. Like how it is revealed in the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. In his case it was so stark, the priests of evolved religion had him killed, done away with, because they understood that the simple message of Jesus - faith in God as your Father and its corollary the brotherhood of mankind - if the people were left alone to follow him, would rapidly put them out of business, which was his intent.

Perhaps the most effective presentation of how Jesus revealed who God is: loving, merciful, and steadfast, willing to lay down his life for the sake of his friends even, is bound up in what Pilate said when he presented Jesus to the jeering crowds standing before him, and said "Behold the man."

 

Edited by Will Due

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Will Do

Jesus of Nazareth is real, and faith in his message that God is your Father and you are his son or daughter is all that's needed to live life to its fullest.

On the contrary, Christianity's Jesus Christ, which is based about the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, is largely a fantasy.

Faith in blood atonement doesn't do anything except distract from what does, and that is simply to have faith that God is your Father and you are his son or daughter.

That's it.

 

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Galactic Goatman
On 8/8/2017 at 1:12 AM, Mr Walker said:

Or you actually  heard the voice of god. :)

Only someone who believed gods did not exist, or communicate with humans, would believe  the statement above. It is a belief statement, and demonstrably untrue, given that  millions of humans who are neither mentally unwell NOR lying, hear the voice of  a god who helps, protects, and guides them, in their life.    The one caveat is how we define and label the beings we call gods .

No god exists, ergo, no human can claim to hear a god. 

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Will Do
1 minute ago, AustinHinton said:

No god exists, ergo, no human can claim to hear a god. 

Any human can claim God doesn't exist and go about it as if he's deaf. That doesn't change the reality of being spoken to.

 

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Galactic Goatman
5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Any human can claim God doesn't exist and go about it as if he's deaf. That doesn't change the reality of being spoken to.

 

Claiming to hear a "god" speak to you telepathically does not equate being spoken to. I can say that a disembodied head visits me each night to whisper strange tales to me while I sleep, but that doesn't mean it actually happened. 

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Will Do
1 minute ago, AustinHinton said:

Claiming to hear a "god" speak to you telepathically does not equate being spoken to. I can say that a disembodied head visits me each night to whisper strange tales to me while I sleep, but that doesn't mean it actually happened. 

But the same thing can be said about claiming to be "deaf" when God speaks. That doesn't mean you don't hear him. 

 

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Galactic Goatman
26 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But the same thing can be said about claiming to be "deaf" when God speaks. That doesn't mean you don't hear him. 

 

Who's to say if there is a god(s), it's a male? :P As one of my friends (on here I believe) once said, "if god exists it's a pair of gigantic floating boobs". 

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, AustinHinton said:

No god exists, ergo, no human can claim to hear a god. 

Nice belief statement, but unprovable, and in reality  factually incorrect.

 Gods (in many forms and types  do exist.

One proven form is the psychological archetype or mental construct of a god which has the same power over people as any physical entity) 

but of course that does not mean that every voice a person attributes to a god comes from a god :) 

I hope you can at least comprehend that your statement has to be one of belief, not of fact.

If you can prove to me how it is even possible for you to KNOW that gods do not exist,   i would be truly interested.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, AustinHinton said:

Claiming to hear a "god" speak to you telepathically does not equate being spoken to. I can say that a disembodied head visits me each night to whisper strange tales to me while I sleep, but that doesn't mean it actually happened. 

Who says gods only speak telepathically?  But even if this was the case, one can verify or disqualify  any such message using  its content, compared to actual events in the world.  

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Galactic Goatman
10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Nice belief statement, but unprovable, and in reality  factually incorrect.

 Gods (in many forms and types  do exist.

One proven form is the psychological archetype or mental construct of a god which has the same power over people as any physical entity) 

but of course that does not mean that every voice a person attributes to a god comes from a god :) 

I hope you can at least comprehend that your statement has to be one of belief, not of fact.

If you can prove to me how it is even possible for you to KNOW that gods do not exist,   i would be truly interested.  

To be honest with you, I do not know if god(s) exist, but if he/they do, he/they are increduably, impossibly, unimaginably cruel. :no:

 

I am a person of facts, not belief, so I'm sorry if my statement came out that way. 

Edited by AustinHinton

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Mr Walker
45 minutes ago, AustinHinton said:

Who's to say if there is a god(s), it's a male? :P As one of my friends (on here I believe) once said, "if god exists it's a pair of gigantic floating boobs". 

Humans tend to attribute gender according to social   conditioning A patriarchal society will tend towards male gods A matriarchal society towards female ones.

Then  individual humans tend ot chose their gods on the basis of gender Even to day many women tend to ask mary to intercede for them In the past women had their own special deities  to appeal to.

You can only understand a voice speaking in a language or imagery you can understand and so for most people the voices of gods come in their own language, using  symbology consistent with their society's.  I tend to hear god as male because i am male and my own inner dialogue is masculine. I consciously know why this is so and allow for it.  However the consciousness of god is neutral and non gender specific  It speaks with great power and authority like a male but with great wisdom and compassion like a female  Not only are gods not masculine or feminine, indeed the y are not human and so do not have  any human gender.  To me god is more like a very advanced AI  which has great knowledge and wisdom, but also very advanced and matured emotional intelligence and control.   It has no actual physical gender, just as an AI does not. 

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Galactic Goatman
4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Humans tend to attribute gender according to social   conditioning A patriarchal society will tend towards male gods A matriarchal society towards female ones.

Then  individual humans tend ot chose their gods on the basis of gender Even to day many women tend to ask mary to intercede for them In the past women had their own special deities  to appeal to.

You can only understand a voice speaking in a language or imagery you can understand and so for most people the voices of gods come in their own language, using  symbology consistent with their society's.  I tend to hear god as male because i am male and my own inner dialogue is masculine. I consciously know why this is so and allow for it.  However the consciousness of god is neutral and non gender specific  It speaks with great power and authority like a male but with great wisdom and compassion like a female  Not only are gods not masculine or feminine, indeed the y are not human and so do not have  any human gender.  To me god is more like a very advanced AI  which has great knowledge and wisdom, but also very advanced and matured emotional intelligence and control.   It has no actual physical gender, just as an AI does not. 

I don't hear the voice of god(s), perhaps because I follow no faith? 

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, AustinHinton said:

To be honest with you, I do not know if god(s) exist, but if he/they do, he/they are increduably, impossibly, unimaginably cruel. :no:

 

I am a person of facts, not belief, so I'm sorry if my statement came out that way. 

No need to apologise i just wondered if you understood that it was a statement of belief not fact.

I dont judge people by what i hear about them from others, and i dont judge gods that way, either  The only god I know from  personal experience is incredibly wise, loving, and caring.

It has saved my life and thatt of my wife many times. It has taught me, mentored me and given me strength power and wisdom over 4 decade. This god "sits on my shoulder"  teaching me,  offering advice, and power and protection.

 it has never done me harm or wrong, and has never urged me to hurt others, but spent a lot of time telling me to give to, and help others and animals/the environment.

I too am a person of facts not belief  I have NEVER believed in the existence of gods but i know from the facts of my own life tha t one walks with me, watches over me, guides and protects me  etc.  

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Humans tend to attribute gender according to social   conditioning A patriarchal society will tend towards male gods A matriarchal society towards female ones.

Then  individual humans tend ot chose their gods on the basis of gender Even to day many women tend to ask mary to intercede for them In the past women had their own special deities  to appeal to.

You can only understand a voice speaking in a language or imagery you can understand and so for most people the voices of gods come in their own language, using  symbology consistent with their society's.  I tend to hear god as male because i am male and my own inner dialogue is masculine. I consciously know why this is so and allow for it.  However the consciousness of god is neutral and non gender specific  It speaks with great power and authority like a male but with great wisdom and compassion like a female  Not only are gods not masculine or feminine, indeed the y are not human and so do not have  any human gender.  To me god is more like a very advanced AI  which has great knowledge and wisdom, but also very advanced and matured emotional intelligence and control.   It has no actual physical gender, just as an AI does not. 

You always talk about your alien god being male and physical.

jmccr8

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