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Lilly

Why I Think God Exists

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, back to earth said:

I forgot ....

 you could come and visit

Wow, yea, nice place!  It's amazing how divine nature can be.

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XenoFish

I think we are on our own. We've just made up stories to affirm our ego driven desire for self-importance. What better way to stroke the ego than having a buddy that's got a place in heaven for you.:rolleyes:

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GlitterRose
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

What if we find God and it's nothing like most of humanity expects. Perhaps it is something that see's us as nothing more than that .1% bacteria the Clorox wiped didn't get. How many people would accept that? We discovered god and found out it doesn't care about us at all. 

 

The South Park one was pretty weird looking. And the Mormons were right. 

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Only_
On 2017-08-09 at 11:25 PM, AustinHinton said:

Ah I see. But it's in my experience as a person that if a god did exist, it doesn't give a damn about humanity. Why kind of a god would allow it's people to kill one another? Call me a nihilist if you want,  it is in my opinion that if a god did exist, I would never worship it. 

When I walk the streets instead of people I see shining sparks of light, because I know there is a divine seed waiting to sprout even in the biggest lout out there. Like Plato said: ''Be kind to all of those you meet for everyone is fighting a great battle''. The gnostic sage Basilides said that the holy spirit is sown into everything in the world. The prophet Mani said that God is in every blade of grass. There is light everywhere. The Universe is putrid but it is still the creation of a divine Being, ignorant and angry as He is and above him Sophia and Sabaoth whisper for creation to access it's potential of supernova of love.

Edited by Be.cause

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XenoFish

Yeah god is in everything. Every rotting corpse, every dead planet, every horrible storm that kills people. God is there. God is there when homeless people freeze to death in the winter. When a child starves god is there. Yet god does nothing, we have to do all the heavy lifting, so why need god when we can change things ourselves. No, it's fine just pray the problems away instead of doing anything about them. 

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Only_
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah god is in everything. Every rotting corpse, every dead planet, every horrible storm that kills people. God is there. God is there when homeless people freeze to death in the winter. When a child starves god is there. Yet god does nothing, we have to do all the heavy lifting, so why need god when we can change things ourselves. No, it's fine just pray the problems away instead of doing anything about them. 

The creator-god of this world is an ignorant emanation from a higher, purer aeon.

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XenoFish
Just now, Be.cause said:

The creator-god of this world is an ignorant emanation from a higher, purer aeon.

I don't care. Even that "higher" god is doing nothing. So why bother believing in a god that's useless. All gods are human constructs, ever single one of them. All those myths and stories are nothing more then a human creation designed to give a sense of self importance. Religion is egocentric, it is about the self. How "important" you are to whatever concept of god you hold to. 

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Only_
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Even that "higher" god is doing nothing.

''By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence. ''

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

We are trapped here my friend.

But there is hope:

''Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers. Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.''

Edited by Be.cause

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XenoFish

I'm not your friend and I do not believe in spiritual nonsense. 

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freetoroam
20 minutes ago, Be.cause said:

''By the same token, it must also be recognized that many portions of the original divine essence have been projected so far from their source that they underwent unwholesome changes in the process. To worship the cosmos, or nature, or embodied creatures is thus tantamount to worshipping alienated and corrupt portions of the emanated divine essence. ''

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

We are trapped here my friend.

But there is hope:

''Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers. Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.''

Please do not bring your collecting tin round my way.

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Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Often he's given a bad rap because of his behavior period.  The only way out of that evaluation is to make the words 'good', 'bad', 'evil', 'cruel', essentially meaningless.

Who is this 'we' and 'us' you are referring to?  I never lived in Eden; using 'we' and 'us' is quite the stretch since you are only referring to two people.

I am sure you know what i am talking about.  We and us is the human race. In the creation mythology of the bible, god created us, gave us life and free will and placed us in paradise with none of the pain suffering ills or death, found in our present world  the writers of the stories never intended to construct god as an evil person He was portrayed as powerful but merciful loving and just  (like a father figure ) it is really only a humans have grown away form the beliefs values ethics and moralities of 2-4000 years ago that humans have begun to question the nature of the god of the bible 

 For example Those peole believed god created them and they were thus his to do with as he wished.  This was an extension of the power and authority of all authority figures of the time Eg rulers over subjects, masters over slaves or servants,  men over women and parents over children.  To them, the one who literally gave them life had a right to take it away from  them 

The bible explains gods behaviours a t all times He is shown to be loving just merciful  etc  For example he agrees NOT to destroy sodom and gomorrah if even a handful of good peole can be found in the cities. He acts to protect those under his protection/

In the OT  he keeps his covenant with the jews.   In their story he owes nothing to non jews  who do not believe in him or follow him.  He restores to job all that he lost and increases his wealth reputation and family  When destroying the cancer of sin with a flood he gives a second chance to humanity through noah and his family  even though this is a risk which does not pay off. You have to read the writings through the  eyes and minds of the writers of the time and the people who would have heard the stories at that time.  

You dont have to change the meanings of the words You just have to apply different values to what IS good or evil  The bible is quite clear on what is good and what is evil in those times, and WHY this was the case.   

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I think we are on our own. We've just made up stories to affirm our ego driven desire for self-importance. What better way to stroke the ego than having a buddy that's got a place in heaven for you.:rolleyes:

Do you think that most narcissists believe in a god? 

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm not your friend and I do not believe in spiritual nonsense. 

LOl its not face book, and you dont get to decide if you are his friend, he does.  You don't have to consider him your friend but if he sees you as his, then you are :) 

If i choose to love all humans, they can't prevent this.   

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah god is in everything. Every rotting corpse, every dead planet, every horrible storm that kills people. God is there. God is there when homeless people freeze to death in the winter. When a child starves god is there. Yet god does nothing, we have to do all the heavy lifting, so why need god when we can change things ourselves. No, it's fine just pray the problems away instead of doing anything about them. 

In a sense this is correct  But god does do lots of things for people. He gives them courage peace and dignity. You don't experience god in your life and so you have no comprehension of the power and transformative abilty of god's presence in a person

. It's abilty to heal, remove guilt, self loathing, fear and anger,  to give peace and joy in hardship. To overcome isolation and loneliness, to alleviate grief and suffering  To actually make a new man from the old

  You can legitimately  speak for yourself, but you are simply wrong to apply your own disconnection from god to others. God IS there for many, in times of crisis, despair and death. 

 Prayer and god are Motivators to action  and they empower actions by people.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Phaeton80
12 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Hmmm, based on the fact that our tiny inconsequential species have created things using our puny human intelligence while riding on an infinitesimal speck in this universe?  That seems like a bold, and kinda unfounded, statement (recognizing of course that you did state it is just your opinion).

The easiest example of why I disagree is something like snowflakes.  They are intricate and geometric and much like other 'things that require intelligence to create'.  By all appearances though, they seem to simply be the result of the scientific laws governing water crystallization.  Should I then think that the laws of crystallization require an intelligence?  Because we have grounds to expect something different?  On what basis should we think that intelligence is required for natural laws, if there was no intelligence, on what basis should we expect nothing?

I'm not sure, but this kinda sounds a little like what ancient people thought:  "I don't know and can't imagine why some people get sick, what lightning is, etc, ergo gods".

 

No, based on the fact every scale of our reality breathes intelligence in its design, underlying patterns. And to reduce my argument to geometrics = intelligence (full stop), isnt really representative of what was argued, is it.. But a stark simplification of it.

..As well as your comparison with ancient people's need for gods to explain the unexplainable. Which I find is a standard response to those who would defend the notion of intelligent design (often compared in thesame breath with 'believing in an old dude with white beard in the clouds') prevalent throughout our reality, which is rather obvious (to me). Or would you argue this claim?

An intelligent design, say; our physical bodies, its blueprint and internal (cellular) machinations, would logically need intelligence to exist. This is a very simple and straightforward notion, again; software code doesnt write itself, even self reproducing worms/virusses need a human code writer to be hurled into existence. This code exists by virtue of algorithms grounded in rules and logic, ie. intelligence, producing consistent behaviour. To compare it to a snowflake, or any other crystal incidentally forming consistently / symmetrically by way of facetting, seems like comparing the intricate patterns that govern creation - grounded in definitive mathematical equasions that essentially do not vary in their general endstate - with a whirlwind leaving consistent patterns in the sand under certain circumstances. The former is sourced from a consistent design producing consistent (templated) results, the latter from randomness producing inconsistent, yet sometimes patterned results (varied, and by chance).

The premise 'intelligent design needs intelligence to exist' is a rational, logical proposition. The premise 'we dont know what lightning (or any other concept) is, therefor god (must exist)', isnt. Two completely different notions, it seems to me.

 

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GoldenWolf
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Do you think that most narcissists believe in a god? 

I think they do believe it or not. Narcissists think only of power, brilliance, beauty and intelligence.  Things that are attributed to "God".

Mirroring is the behaviour in which one person subconsciously imitates the gesture, speech pattern, or attitude of another.

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

LOl its not face book, and you dont get to decide if you are his friend, he does.  You don't have to consider him your friend but if he sees you as his, then you are :) 

If i choose to love all humans, they can't prevent this.   

I do get to choose who I like or dislike. Even if he see's me as his friend, I will not reciprocate the sentiment. It would be a waste of time on his part not mine. 

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In a sense this is correct  But god does do lots of things for people. He gives them courage peace and dignity. You don't experience god in your life and so you have no comprehension of the power and transformative abilty of god's presence in a person

This is just a "spiritual placebo effect".

. It's abilty to heal, remove guilt, self loathing, fear and anger,  to give peace and joy in hardship. To overcome isolation and loneliness, to alleviate grief and suffering  To actually make a new man from the old

Again another psychological crutch in dealing with life. 

  You can legitimately  speak for yourself, but you are simply wrong to apply your own disconnection from god to others. God IS there for many, in times of crisis, despair and death. 

If I am wrong so is everyone else. There is no evidence of god's existence outside of the subjective view point of believers, without belief god doesn't exist. God is just an idea.

 Prayer and god are Motivators to action  and they empower actions by people.

No, they are just "magical affirmations". If they do not lead to action it's a waste of breath and thought. And sometimes the actions they produce kill people. 

 

Edited by XenoFish
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NChSh

I think Crowley's 0=2 "equation" gives the clearest idea. Technically it's 0=n+(-n). That is, you can get everything from nothing, so long as the equation balances. If you start with "1," then the universe could only come into existence through division, i.e. God is dead! I prefer the more reasonable solution that It never existed in the first place. 

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Liquid Gardens
10 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

No, based on the fact every scale of our reality breathes intelligence in its design, underlying patterns.

Let's be clear though, patterns do not require intelligence.  I'm not entirely clear by your comments on the snowflake, I'm not sure if you consider crystallization to be part of the 'every facet of reality breathing intelligence' or not.  Since you mentioned how they 'incidentally' form, does that mean you agree that non-intelligence, in this case the natural laws concerning crystallization, can produce things that may appear to be designed by something intelligent?  Snowflakes definitely look designed and resemble some works of art only created by humans, and I'll bet the mathematical explanation for a particular snowflake pattern it is extremely intricate.  The more basic question is do you think that absolutely everything is intelligently designed or are there non-intelligent or random forces too?

11 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

And to reduce my argument to geometrics = intelligence (full stop), isnt really representative of what was argued, is it.. But a stark simplification of it.

Thank god I didn't do that then.  I never ever said or implied anything close to 'full stop' at any point, you haven't had the chance to provide much detail on this which I don't blame you for, and of course it is more than allowable that I bring up detailed points of question regardless.  There are no grounds to assume anything nefarious.

Quote

An intelligent design, say; our physical bodies, its blueprint and internal (cellular) machinations, would logically need intelligence to exist.

We don't know that our bodies are 'an intelligent design', as in being created by an intelligence.  Considering that we already have a lot of explanations as to why our bodies are the way they are derived from proximate sources that in no way appear to be sentient or intelligent, mainly genetics and natural selection, intelligence seems even less required.

Quote

 the intricate patterns that govern creation - grounded in definitive mathematical equasions that essentially do not vary in their general endstate 

I think a more conservative phrasing would be that we use math to understand the intricate patterns in creation.  To say 'grounded' to me may imply that reality works the way it works because of math, when I think it's just as valid to say it's the other way around.

Quote

The premise 'intelligent design needs intelligence to exist' is a rational, logical proposition. The premise 'we dont know what lightning (or any other concept) is, therefor god (must exist)', isnt. Two completely different notions, it seems to me.

I agree they are different, and it may highlight something I may not be clear on as far as your usage.  I don't know that I'd term 'intelligent design needs intelligence to exist' as 'logical', I see it as just definitional.  I don't know what the 'intelligent' in ID means unless it needs an intelligence; 'intelligent design' to me is synonymous with 'designed by an intelligence'.  I'm not sure, maybe you mean it more as 'appeared to be intelligent' or something like that.  

The point of the explanation of god for lightning is that people who proposed that did so because they didn't have any evidence or information about lightning. Similarly, we don't really have any information pointing in any direction for why math and reality are the way they are, we've got a sample of one to work with and even in this one the specific aspects you've referred to are at the foundation of our understanding almost anything and thus that much more inscrutable.  I'm not sure if questions like 'why are mathematics and natural laws the way they are?' are even legitimate, to me it's too close to, 'why does pi have the value it has?'.

(nothing I've said here should be construed as my simplifying, reducing or in any way telling you what your argument is.)

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said:

I think they do believe it or not. Narcissists think only of power, brilliance, beauty and intelligence.  Things that are attributed to "God".

Mirroring is the behaviour in which one person subconsciously imitates the gesture, speech pattern, or attitude of another.

Ok Thanks for that.  Still not sure which you think. To me a narcissist would not believe in a god other than themselves.  They would see themselves as perfect/ a superior being, and thus as god.To admit to something superior to themselves  would be unthinkable.

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I do get to choose who I like or dislike. Even if he see's me as his friend, I will not reciprocate the sentiment. It would be a waste of time on his part not mine. 

 

Now that  is correct  except that, again, you can't decide what another will find a waste of time  He does what he chooses, for his own motivations :)

To call it a placebo effect is a cop out and diminishes it. Science has found it actually changes physical brain and body chemistry and physiological function.

For example it physically reduces pain and speeds up wound and trauma recovery times. it increases speed of remission and rates of remission from cancer.  

You can argue that this is "all in the mind" and be partly correct but everything about a self aware being exists largely in their mind.

Science has even found that pain is not caused by trauma but by the brain's response to trauma  Some people feel pain when trauma has healed others feel no pain despite deep trauma.

To denigrate faith and belief because it "only"  produces a placebo effect is  like refusing to take a small white pill which stops pain, heals trauma etc.   Clearly this is an evolved healing process involving the connection between mind/belief and body. 

Only an idiot with a broken leg would try to walk without a crutch if one was available and if you lost a leg you would be foolish not to accept a crutch or even an artificial leg.

it is your disdain for religion and thus for faith and belief which blinds you to this   Take the crutch and be empowered. Dont try and walk unaided with only one leg  It is not heroic. It is stupid.  

You cannot know the objective experiences of others. You are imputing or extrapolating what the y are, from within the limits of your own

And you do not believe others who tell you something different . This is not surprising from someone who prefers to live in pain rather than be humble/practical enough, to partake of an effective relief for tha t pain. 

You cant have your last point both ways.  Indeed, faith motivates people to hate and kill. It also motivates them to protect, love and save  It can cure alcoholism and a broken heart,  but as above it can also cure many physical illnesses and give relief from others BECAUSE of the direct linkage between the human mind and our physiology.

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GlitterRose
20 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm not your friend and I do not believe in spiritual nonsense. 

It's not much different than Thelema. Only in levels of optimism, I guess. It's still about resolving dualism. 

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jmccr8
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 Still not sure which you think.

Hmmm, really after all the talk about how you know what other people think past and present.:rolleyes:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

In the creation mythology of the bible, god created us, gave us life and free will and placed us in paradise with none of the pain suffering ills or death, found in our present world  

Well his book says that he created Adam, Eve, and Lilith in his image and we are born in the image of man, so the we/us point is mute.

jmccr8

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Only_
Quote

It's not much different than Thelema. Only in levels of optimism, I guess. It's still about resolving dualism. 

Xenofish's mind recoil at the very notion that everything is backward, that out there is the true world and here is the dream''.

Edited by Be.cause

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