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How do you translate the Bible?

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25 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Sin... Sin is basically what you feel sorry for. Regrets.

A sin is only a sin if you know it's wrong and do it anyway based on my understanding of consious will.

jmccr8

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12 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

:D 

because people get tired   ....   no wait  ,  because its in Bible  .

Is it a sin to be tired on any day besides one day off for rest?:huh:

jmccr8

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Yeah, how stupid was that ...... God got tired from creating and needed a day off     Ha!    WHAT DID HE DO ON THE NEXT WEEK  ?   Create another Universe ?   (Oh no, wait, there can only be one .... you know who insists )    ....  So what did God do top get over the ' Monday Blues ? '   And what did God do on the Sabbath actually ? Go to beach, picnic ,  football ?

Yes, all our resting, according to Walker, is because God and Bible told us     :D  

BTE religion says no ....  it practices 'reverse Christian work ethic '   ; 1 day on 6  days off   . I actually cracked it once , made tofu one day a week and made enough to live here , in a little caravan, had a motorbike, food, smokes,  a  6 pack in the fridge, pristine environment , a river to float down ,,, a beach to ride to and several  young hippy girlfriends.

But no one wants to live like that , its irresponsible and sinful !       (apparently  )  .

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35 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

A sin is only a sin if you know it's wrong and do it anyway based on my understanding of consious will.

jmccr8

That is a better definition then mine, I think. :tu:

This is why I think most of the time tiny children are exempt from sin, since they have no real understanding (limited at best) of doing something wrong as an infant/toddler.

Edited by DieChecker
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4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Yeah, how stupid was that ...... God got tired from creating and needed a day off     Ha!    WHAT DID HE DO ON THE NEXT WEEK  ?   Create another Universe ?   (Oh no, wait, there can only be one .... you know who insists )    ....  So what did God do top get over the ' Monday Blues ? '   And what did God do on the Sabbath actually ? Go to beach, picnic ,  football ?

Yes, all our resting, according to Walker, is because God and Bible told us     :D  

BTE religion says no ....  it practices 'reverse Christian work ethic '   ; 1 day on 6  days off   . I actually cracked it once , made tofu one day a week and made enough to live here , in a little caravan, had a motorbike, food, smokes,  a  6 pack in the fridge, pristine environment , a river to float down ,,, a beach to ride to and several  young hippy girlfriends.

But no one wants to live like that , its irresponsible and sinful !       (apparently  )  .

like :D

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Just now, DieChecker said:

That is a better definition then mine, I think. :tu:

 

Like :D, yeah if you grow up in a certain environment and are treated in a certain way it is a response and not a conscious choice so until you know that your response is wrong you can not be responsible for a reaction until one has a revelation, if one has been beaten for doing something then it is right to beat someone that displays someone that fits the criteria that you were beaten for until one understands that it is wrong. After the realization of wrong and continued the behavior it becomes a sin because it is known to be wrong.

jmccr8

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Diechecker, I do like you and how you represent your faith and do enjoy your input so I try to represent my thoughts in a way that will appeal to your sense of being being the world.Even if we do not meet on some points I do respect you.

jmccr8

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5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Diechecker, I do like you and how you represent your faith and do enjoy your input so I try to represent my thoughts in a way that will appeal to your sense of being being the world.Even if we do not meet on some points I do respect you.

jmccr8

Thanks!! I do try to respect everyone else also. At least in terms of Religion anyway, if not Politics and UFOs....

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17 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Thanks!! I do try to respect everyone else also. At least in terms of Religion anyway, if not Politics and UFOs....

Still can't like but LIKE anyway, and yes I have seen your humanity in the way you express yourself.

jmccr8

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I am involved in my research in the Ka of the grain and my bbrha isn't here to edit my responses so bear with me:D as I find it troublesome to deviate from my main area study.:whistle: She is so wonderful in making such discussions possible in a meaningful way.:lol:.So, if I don't express my position with percision please excuse the deficiency.I am given the skills to be me and something more and it is the more that interests me and makes me want to be that something else, Adaptive evolution is our nature and based on the world we/I live in.

Clairification BBRHA = BIG BOOBED RAVEN HAIRED ASSISTANT. and she only has 2 boobs and is local, just so Walker doesn't think that I'm working his tri-boobie alien.:lol:

jmccr8

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7 hours ago, DieChecker said:
16 hours ago, NChSh said:

Makes for good toilet or rolling paper.

So do encyclopedias. :tu: Or just about any paper really... 

But?!   But?!?!  But?!?! 

The paper cuts!!!!!  ...................... Yikes......................... :blink: ................................. *cringes* 

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I wouldn't know I'm still working weekdays and weekends, I rest when the job is done just like many other westerners.

jmccr8

Yeah! :tu:  

And what about retail employees and employers?? Should they're not resting on Sunday worth the fuss...............................

.................. until you need to get something important?? ;)   

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:
7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

So do encyclopedias. :tu: Or just about any paper really... 

Sears catalogue, little ruff on the butt but there's no grass growing in the outhouse.:lol: If only flies were bigger.

jmccr8

:o:o ....................................... ;)    :devil:  

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

Well, there is a whole lot in that area, I don't think about it. Considering I'm not educated on the mainstream religions that well. (Well, Heck, not educated in all of them really, with my secular upbringing.) So, I really don't see it as something that seems understandable to me. In fact, the way I see it, all of that seems really really harsh. 

I was raised secular, and didn't crack a Bible till I was 30 (or maybe 29? humm....). 

Oh yeah! I think you've made mention this before, here on this board. I forgot about that. Of course, the difference between you and me, is that I never made the conversion (or really cracked open a bible) at all. Nothing wrong with what you or I did, just how my path went. I think a lot of it became as it was, because of my observations of others, and ending up marrying into a similar family. 

Quote

It was really, really harsh. And then after Jesus, it was somewhat less harsh. But, I think if we look at this from the writings of Paul that it will be more easily understood. (See below).

There were individuals who were handing out pocket bibles in both the community college and state university I attended and graduated from. I looked at a page here and there and went, ....................... 'nah, can't see this being something I can understandingly and honestly read and put into my life. 

And on top of that, I have observed varying Christians who talk about this and that, and I'm like :unsure:  and :unsure2: 

Yeah, I get that it was harsh, but it still seems like trying to raise children by simply abusing them and scaring the life out of them. And they behave with no life in them. *shrugs* 

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Sin... Sin is basically what you feel sorry for. Regrets...

Ahhh, well I guess this could be a good description to that. :hmm:  ...................... regret, I could use that in my 'forgiveness' thread. ;)  :devil:   Makes me wonder how useful regret can be. But to me, it could be harmful if directed to the wrong people. ;)  

Quote

If you read up on the Apostle Paul,

I don't plan on it. Sorry to be blunt, but I and my belief, see no reason behind it. 

......................... so, I thank you for your input on this. :D  :tu: 

Quote

he basically says that anyone can do anything, and it is not sinful. A action/thought/event is only sinful if it somehow comes between you and God/Jesus. The example given in the Bible is food offerings. Possibly offerings to one of the Greek gods. He says if you eat the food, and it upsets you, then repent of it, otherwise if it does not bother you, you are fine. Also, he says if you feel eating the food (offering) is wrong, but your neighbor doesn't have a problem with it, do not accuse your neighbor of sin, as only each person can determine what to them is sinful.

I think it is 1st Corinthians 8 and 10.

Well, I don't get that. It all matters if it's looked upon one particular higher power who says if it's bad or not? I have come to a realization, when I was young, that how it's looked, how it's symbolized as bad or good, doesn't make sense. I consider that a waste of mental and physical energy of how it's looked at. If it's bad, then don't do it, for one knows what the outcome is. Same thing on if it's good, then it's good, so do it. If my neighbor does something, no matter how a higher power considers it, and it seems overall objectively bad, then I wouldn't blame myself for judging them harshly about it. 

Quote

The Believer’s Freedom

23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience?30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

And this bit, doesn't make sense to me. And the last bit, seems a bit judgmental and inconsiderate. One person's saving, could be another person's belief that they are being judged and being pushed to live a life that don't believe in. 

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

Another thing, as a secular raised individual, I do not understand, is the 'dying for our sins' bit. If anything, I feel it didn't do any good. Sorry, I'm not saying this as a fact type of thing, but as a opinionated subjective thoughts of one person type of thing. I still see so  many people commit bad behavior. I would hear some religious people talk about him dying for our sins, so I would think, it should have done the trick. But, I still see it happen, so what did he die for then? On top of that, I have seen people joke about sinning on purpose, because that's why he died for. (which makes me think, they don't get it.) 

If I would look at it this way, maybe he died to show personal responsibility. And, that also makes me think, the idea didn't really spread that well. 

What you are mixing up is forgiveness and free will. People are free to be evil... as Evil as they want. AND, they are STILL forgiven for it, if they can forgive themselves, and truly repent. The Forgiveness is unconditional, and all covering... It can not be lost. But, people are free to turn away from it, and live their lives they way they wish. The key is to truly repent of the wrongs you've done. Is that really such an evil thing to ask?

Yeah, I don't get that. (And you know, I can't simply see forgiveness as simply as that.) And that makes it even more confusing to me. How does one dying for our sins, is using forgiveness in it. Frankly, if it's for the people to forgive him, I don't get it? If it's him forgiving the people, well, dying for others doesn't seem like a good job for that. 

And mixing up forgiveness and free will? Maybe, because I don't see that at all. I don't see forgiveness really part of that. And free will? I feel, that's something I don't feel makes sense to me. I personally don't think free will, can be given. 

Sorry, DC, I don't see it this way. If every, I'm back at the way it makes sense to me. That it's a teaching of personal responsibility. Because, of the fact that I don't see 'free will' and 'forgiveness' as something as an action. I see them as instinctive behavioral responses. And my life of observance, experiences, and understanding of how they are done, has taught me that. 

So, this bit, understandably to me, still doesn't make sense. 

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

All you have to do is believe." is working in like 90% of the world. We only value evidence and hard facts, over emotion experiences, because we've been raised that way for two or three generations. 

I'm not disputing that. And there a lot of times, I have seen that I'm unique in various aspects of that, or I'm in the small groups of it. Despite that it seems to be working on more than a lot, still doesn't have me understand that it does. I will be in the small ratio that still doesn't understand how and why it does work. 

And the second part of this particular quote I quoted may give away as to why it 'seems' to work on most. Because 'we've been raised that way for generations'. (though, since you were raised secular like me, I'm curious as to how you found how you could believe in your adulthood. Since you ended up reading the bible all the way through, and it didn't do anything for me, ) 

Being raised in it, could bring it's own biased pre-set. And that's how I also could see my unique way of looking at it. I wasn't it, so when it comes to how some would lecture on it, and it confuses me understandably, it will confuse me understandably. I honestly cannot see it to believe it, and I will be honest with myself. Granted, I think differently with most people, but I know I'm not alone. Plus, how about others not raised in it and how they would see it? 

Quote

It is the lack of proof, while believing, which is the highest form of Faith. And, really, if you think about it... If there was actual proof of God, would there be atheists? Would there be fence sitters? Would there be Philosophical discussions? Because if there was proof of One Real God, that would be it... Proof equals everyone... EVERYONE... has to obey... So then "Poof!" free will is gone. There would be no moral challenge to people, only hard fast rules to be obeyed, or you burn forever. We'll never see proof of God, because it would ruin the world in so many ways.

Yes, that would make sense, but this would put it in a different setting. Instead of faith, and belief, and a religion, you would have laws, and a visible leader. Yes, you wouldn't have a religion anymore, you would have something else. 

And I understand that it wouldn't be faith. I understand that with my belief. 

But here's the kicker here, when it comes to that. If it's the mindset to get more people into one particular mindset of one particular belief, wouldn't it be that the goal is to get everyone to consider that as fact? Wouldn't it be judgmental toward their own beliefs and insisting they lose their faith of their own religion to change to your's? I would think, that you also see it as your own truth. As on to that, there would be a conflict of pushing their belief into something, they originally don't believe. 

I think there's a confusing thought of how one does see their belief and if it's still belief to them or personal subjective fact to them. 

 

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7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:
7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Sin... Sin is basically what you feel sorry for. Regrets.

A sin is only a sin if you know it's wrong and do it anyway based on my understanding of consious will.

jmccr8

Now, that makes sense to me! :D 

6 hours ago, back to earth said:

Yeah, how stupid was that ...... God got tired from creating and needed a day off     Ha!    WHAT DID HE DO ON THE NEXT WEEK  ?   Create another Universe ?   (Oh no, wait, there can only be one .... you know who insists )    ....  So what did God do top get over the ' Monday Blues ? '   And what did God do on the Sabbath actually ? Go to beach, picnic ,  football ?

Yes, all our resting, according to Walker, is because God and Bible told us     :D  

BTE religion says no ....  it practices 'reverse Christian work ethic '   ; 1 day on 6  days off   . I actually cracked it once , made tofu one day a week and made enough to live here , in a little caravan, had a motorbike, food, smokes,  a  6 pack in the fridge, pristine environment , a river to float down ,,, a beach to ride to and several  young hippy girlfriends.

But no one wants to live like that , its irresponsible and sinful !       (apparently  )  .

Oh for crying out loud. Everybody go to my religion!!! There's no such thing as sin, and that's help with giving a break from that and the relief of not worry about it!!!  

Of course, I'm joking, I'm not proselyting my belief, no not at all!!! .................................... ;)    :devil:  

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:
6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

That is a better definition then mine, I think. :tu:

 

Like :D, yeah if you grow up in a certain environment and are treated in a certain way it is a response and not a conscious choice so until you know that your response is wrong you can not be responsible for a reaction until one has a revelation, if one has been beaten for doing something then it is right to beat someone that displays someone that fits the criteria that you were beaten for until one understands that it is wrong. After the realization of wrong and continued the behavior it becomes a sin because it is known to be wrong.

jmccr8

Yeah, that's the ticket!!!!   :D  

........................ Wait! What? :o     

;)  

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Diechecker, I do like you and how you represent your faith and do enjoy your input so I try to represent my thoughts in a way that will appeal to your sense of being being the world.Even if we do not meet on some points I do respect you.

jmccr8

Yeah, I think he's cool about that. :D   

Very worthy, DC, very worthy :tu:  

(................................................ ssshhhh, he's good for the synapses. ....................... don't tell him that!!!  Shhh!) 

:o    :devil:   

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Thanks!! I do try to respect everyone else also. At least in terms of Religion anyway, if not Politics and UFOs....

I'll work on ya!!! :D  

Wait! I didn't just say that!!!!

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I am involved in my research in the Ka of the grain and my bbrha isn't here to edit my responses so bear with me:D as I find it troublesome to deviate from my main area study.:whistle: She is so wonderful in making such discussions possible in a meaningful way.:lol:.So, if I don't express my position with percision please excuse the deficiency.I am given the skills to be me and something more and it is the more that interests me and makes me want to be that something else, Adaptive evolution is our nature and based on the world we/I live in.

Clairification BBRHA = BIG BOOBED RAVEN HAIRED ASSISTANT. and she only has 2 boobs and is local, just so Walker doesn't think that I'm working his tri-boobie alien.:lol:

jmccr8

This is why, I always have to reread things to understand and to make my points. ( I hate my slight reading disability ) Though it does have it'm moments. But, from first reading the first line in your post, I thought it said, " I am involved in my research in the Ka of the groin..................

Yeah, sorry about that. :cry:   

 

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On 12/08/2017 at 3:14 PM, jmccr8 said:

I wouldn't know I'm still working weekdays and weekends, I rest when the job is done just like many other westerners.

jmccr8

If you were in australia, you would have been getting double time ( or more) for working on a sunday, until some recent changes :) My point was that, a lot more of western law and custom is based on ancient, often biblical laws and customs, than we often realise.   In turn, these were based on observations of cause and effect/natural consequence, in the natural world.   

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On 12/08/2017 at 3:46 PM, back to earth said:

 

:D 

because people get tired   ....   no wait  ,  because its in Bible  .

The  people who wrote the bible understood nature  They observed how crops grow better after a fallow period They observed that animals and humans work more efficiently, for longer,when given periods of rest  The writers then applied these observations, both backwards into their creation story, and also forwards into laws and social customs, requiring people to have one days rest per week from their labour (and remember this was dawn to dusk hard physical labour form most people)

.  It was SUCH an important principle of living,  to them, that they made it the centre piece of the ten commandments, and the sign of the covenant between jews and god.  Thus it was not JUST a day of rest, but a day to commune with god, to listen to god, and to think about god, while not totally immersed in work.

And so yes. The reason  modern westerners whose tradition is based on judeo christianity  have a day's rest, goes back to judaism and christianity. You get a day off each week because it is in the bible that you should  

Originally it was the seventh day, or sabbath ,(from sunset friday to sunset saturday )  But while integrating pagan beliefs into christianity, the catholic church used papal authority to alter it to sunday ( the first, not the seventh,  day of the week )   The jews probably got this idea from the babylonians where the y spent some time in captivity The babylonians held every seventh day to be both unlucky and special but  for the babylonians only the final seventh day each month was set aside for worship and rest  So thank the jews for getting you one  holiday each week :) 

Interestingly, both revolutionary france, and communist russia, tried to do away with it, but eventually it returned to both countries 

Edited by Mr Walker

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On 8/12/2017 at 0:25 AM, DieChecker said:

Thanks!! I do try to respect everyone else also. At least in terms of Religion anyway, if not Politics and UFOs....

I would agree you come across as a fair, respectful, humble, and gracious person. 

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9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If you were in australia, you would have been getting double time ( or more) for working on a sunday, until some recent changes :) My point was that, a lot more of western law and custom is based on ancient, often biblical laws and customs, than we often realise.   In turn, these were based on observations of cause and effect/natural consequence, in the natural world.   

Well, here one can get overtime after 8 hrs of work in a day or if on works more that 40 hrs during the week if one is an employee and because business is 7 days a week for many types of employment weekends or days off are not the same for everyone. Contractors and sub-contractors do not get overtime they get the value of the quoted job whether it takes them y number of days or x number of days, the more hours per day increases the amount one makes in that period but the amount of money remains the same per job quoted.

Not sure what law has to do with it did they have overtime in ancient times? Did slaves or indentured servants get days off in ancient times?

Sure some laws in our justice system are based off of biblical concepts but then again those concepts preceded the bible and were formed aside of religious influence.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Well, here one can get overtime after 8 hrs of work in a day or if on works more that 40 hrs during the week if one is an employee and because business is 7 days a week for many types of employment weekends or days off are not the same for everyone. Contractors and sub-contractors do not get overtime they get the value of the quoted job whether it takes them y number of days or x number of days, the more hours per day increases the amount one makes in that period but the amount of money remains the same per job quoted.

Not sure what law has to do with it did they have overtime in ancient times? Did slaves or indentured servants get days off in ancient times?

Sure some laws in our justice system are based off of biblical concepts but then again those concepts preceded the bible and were formed aside of religious influence.

jmccr8

My Point was that the concept of a day off from work in western societies derives first  from babylonian religion, passed down to judaic religion, and then to  christianity. It is one of many socio economic realities in most of the world  which are driven by, or influenced by,   religious beliefs As economic imperatives changed people could work on the sabbath but had to be given extra compensation for the loss of the day of rest.

 Actually, No. Most of the west's practices and laws did not exist before judaeo christianity,  and would not exist without these influences.Some of course did, but were also driven by other religious beliefs.

Look at indigenous societies and their values   before they were influenced by christianity.   Without the concept that man contains an element of the divine,or is special to god,  human life is held much more cheaply and laws reflect this.   All laws are value driven and all values are belief driven. Most beliefs are spiritual in nature, by default   Religions are organised  spiritual belief structures, and tend to consolidate practices into laws. Try to think of a law which has no connection to an underlying, value driven, belief.    

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15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Actually, No. Most of the west's practices and laws did not exist before judaeo christianity,  and would not exist without these influences.Some of course did, but were also driven by other religious beliefs.

Do you actually read what people say to you? I didn't infer that western law existed before religious laws, I did say that some laws in our( not your)country are or could be based on the commandments. We have gone through this before and law judgment and punishment has existed in cultures long before the bible and other religions they are aspects of how people living in a group setting have always interacted. I am not going to discuss this with you again, you can look at other threads where you have been confronted by several posters on the subject rather than rehashing it here.

jmccr8

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Do you actually read what people say to you? I didn't infer that western law existed before religious laws, I did say that some laws in our( not your)country are or could be based on the commandments. We have gone through this before and law judgment and punishment has existed in cultures long before the bible and other religions they are aspects of how people living in a group setting have always interacted. I am not going to discuss this with you again, you can look at other threads where you have been confronted by several posters on the subject rather than rehashing it here.

jmccr8

Sorry then but i don't really get what you are arguing

You saud this

.Sure some laws in our justice system are based off of biblical concepts but then again those concepts preceded the bible and were formed aside of religious influence.

That is incorrect And i pointed this incorrectness out in my statement

Actually, No. Most of the west's practices and laws did not exist before judaeo christianity,  and would not exist without these influences.Some of course did, but were also driven by other religious beliefs.

So yes i read what you said and corrected it. There are no modern laws which are not based on some form of belief and value system, which in turn only exists because of spiritual/religious beliefs.   If human life was not considered especially valuable and "sacred" we would not need laws about how to drive, for example. 

 

 No conscious/ constructed, laws punishments and judgments   existed before human spirituality and  religion evolved There were only genetic biological imperatives  as we see in other primates today.  The same evolution of human cognition/self awareness, which caused spirituality and religion, caused the abstract and conceptually  driven formations of beliefs ethics and moralities  These in turn drove the formation of laws for the first societies.

We are in agreement that laws based on religion/ human spirituality  go back before christianity, but i argued that OUR laws (in western civilization ) are based upon Babylonian, judaic, and then christian beliefs and values. Not upon  ancient /traditionbal mesoamerican,  mongolian, chinese or japanese, polynesian, melanesian, or other spiritual and religious forms. 

. Pagan societies in  europe and asia had laws based on religious and spiritual beliefs. These are not reflected in modern western laws.  .  

The commandments are only the major  laws, and perhaps form the basis of western law. But judaic christian tradition also enshrines many lesser laws, customs and traditions, by which modern people live.   

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31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry then but i don't really get what you are arguing

You saud this

.Sure some laws in our justice system are based off of biblical concepts but then again those concepts preceded the bible and were formed aside of religious influence.

That is incorrect And i pointed this incorrectness out in my statement

Actually, No. Most of the west's practices and laws did not exist before judaeo christianity,  and would not exist without these influences.Some of course did, but were also driven by other religious beliefs.

So yes i read what you said and corrected it. There are no modern laws which are not based on some form of belief and value system, which in turn only exists because of spiritual/religious beliefs.   If human life was not considered especially valuable and "sacred" we would not need laws about how to drive, for example. 

 

 No conscious/ constructed, laws punishments and judgments   existed before human spirituality and  religion evolved There were only genetic biological imperatives  as we see in other primates today.  The same evolution of human cognition/self awareness, which caused spirituality and religion, caused the abstract and conceptually  driven formations of beliefs ethics and moralities  These in turn drove the formation of laws for the first societies.

We are in agreement that laws based on religion/ human spirituality  go back before christianity, but i argued that OUR laws (in western civilization ) are based upon Babylonian, judaic, and then christian beliefs and values. Not upon  ancient /traditionbal mesoamerican,  mongolian, chinese or japanese, polynesian, melanesian, or other spiritual and religious forms. 

. Pagan societies in  europe and asia had laws based on religious and spiritual beliefs. These are not reflected in modern western laws.  .  

The commandments are only the major  laws, and perhaps form the basis of western law. But judaic christian tradition also enshrines many lesser laws, customs and traditions, by which modern people live.   

Re read what I said. There is no need for religious influence for groups of people to create guidelines or protocol to live by. Man has been living in groups for 100s of thousands of years. Now go back and read what has been said to you in other threads in the past, you always tout how you are such a mental giant with exception memory skills so I would think that if a minion like me can remember those discussions then it should be right there in your rolodex memory. Discussion finished.

jmccr8

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Re read what I said. There is no need for religious influence for groups of people to create guidelines or protocol to live by. Man has been living in groups for 100s of thousands of years. Now go back and read what has been said to you in other threads in the past, you always tout how you are such a mental giant with exception memory skills so I would think that if a minion like me can remember those discussions then it should be right there in your rolodex memory. Discussion finished.

jmccr8

 I disagree. MAn has had religious and spiritual belief  since we evolved self aware consciousness. It  goes with the territory.

At the same time that consciousness evolved, the abilty to know love empathy and hate,   as well as  conscience, guilt,  etc  developed in our cognitive awareness, and so we established the first conscious rules for living by.

This separated us from  and continues to separate us from other primates  

The discussion might have occurred but those who argue in opposition to this pov are factually and scientifically wrong

. Ask why no other animal has EITHER religious spiritual awareness OR  conscious and abstract constructed laws for living by rather than biological genetic imperatives .

The answer is simple. One cannot exist without the other. Until we evolve a certain level of self aware consciousness we can have NEITHER spiritual awareness and religions NOR laws and rules based on a conscious realisation of cause and effect. and thus personal responsibility for our behaviours  

Humans do not generate conscious reason based laws and rules for living, until they have an advanced level of self aware consciousness,

By that time they ALSO have an advanced level of spiritual awareness which generates codified religious behaviours in groups. 

So up to a point our ancestral "humans" lived like modern apes  with genetic/biological imperatives driving them.

Less than 100000 years ago  (70-90000 years ago)  a genetic  evolution gave humans the abilty to develop a higher level of self aware consciousness form, which  enabled complex inner and oral language, the ability to think in abstract forms, and to think more carefully; eg use imagination, extrapolation, abstract and conceptual thinking    This is when EVERY  piece of archaeological evidences shows that humans began to paint, carve,  make ritual objects, to be spiritual/religious,  to bury the dead with ritual and respect etc  Until then we were nothing more than just another primate with a little bit of  capacity to use very primitive tools  Great apes and chimpanzees live in communal groups with  biological imperatives, and even sociologically  driven imperatives, like mutual grooming  But they are not human. and they don't have spiritual or religious thoughts or forms.  When they do they will be human.  Human is not a name limited to one primate form.

Neandertals were human. Denisovans were human, and  possibly other forms. It is our self aware consciousness which defines us as human.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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On 8/12/2017 at 6:32 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

But?!   But?!?!  But?!?! 

The paper cuts!!!!!  ...................... Yikes......................... :blink: ................................. *cringes* 

Yeah! :tu:  

You have to fold it over first, so the sharp sides are facing out.

Quote

Oh yeah! I think you've made mention this before, here on this board. I forgot about that. Of course, the difference between you and me, is that I never made the conversion (or really cracked open a bible) at all. Nothing wrong with what you or I did, just how my path went. I think a lot of it became as it was, because of my observations of others, and ending up marrying into a similar family. 

I very likely would have remained non-religious, if it had not been for some friends from college I stayed with after I got out of the military. 

I'd like to think that my actions in life would still have been the same. I'd still have been a "good" person with or without religion. And I do find the "One Thing", that most Christians get hung up on to be a hang up... That unless you accept Jesus into your life... While you are alive, then you are doomed. I like to think that you can change your belief at any time, and sign onto the side of Jesus and Heaven.

Quote

There were individuals who were handing out pocket bibles in both the community college and state university I attended and graduated from. I looked at a page here and there and went, ....................... 'nah, can't see this being something I can understandingly and honestly read and put into my life. 

And on top of that, I have observed varying Christians who talk about this and that, and I'm like :unsure:  and :unsure2: 

Nothing wrong with handing out Bibles, I think. It is telling people they will go to Hell if they don't memorize every word, that is the problem.

I was pretty much the same in my 20's. I was like, "No time for this....". Especially after having bad experiences in Georgia, with a church that picked up soldiers and then wouldn't drive them home unless they "tithed" enough into the plate. That was pure and simple BullSh*t.

Quote

Yeah, I get that it was harsh, but it still seems like trying to raise children by simply abusing them and scaring the life out of them. And they behave with no life in them. *shrugs* 

Ahhh, well I guess this could be a good description to that. :hmm:  ...................... regret, I could use that in my 'forgiveness' thread. ;)  :devil:   Makes me wonder how useful regret can be. But to me, it could be harmful if directed to the wrong people. ;)  

I liked jccmr8's wording... "...know it's wrong and do it anyway...".

Quote

I don't plan on it. Sorry to be blunt, but I and my belief, see no reason behind it. 

......................... so, I thank you for your input on this. :D  :tu: 

Well, I don't get that. It all matters if it's looked upon one particular higher power who says if it's bad or not? I have come to a realization, when I was young, that how it's looked, how it's symbolized as bad or good, doesn't make sense. I consider that a waste of mental and physical energy of how it's looked at. If it's bad, then don't do it, for one knows what the outcome is. Same thing on if it's good, then it's good, so do it. If my neighbor does something, no matter how a higher power considers it, and it seems overall objectively bad, then I wouldn't blame myself for judging them harshly about it. 

No problem. I don't even believe that reading the Bible is a requirement of Christianity. The messages behind Jesus are pretty basic, and if they are followed, a person should be fine to get into the afterlife. The key would be getting your info from someone who is knowledgeable and whom you can trust.

Quote

And this bit, doesn't make sense to me. And the last bit, seems a bit judgmental and inconsiderate. One person's saving, could be another person's belief that they are being judged and being pushed to live a life that don't believe in. 

Yeah, I don't get that. (And you know, I can't simply see forgiveness as simply as that.) And that makes it even more confusing to me. How does one dying for our sins, is using forgiveness in it. Frankly, if it's for the people to forgive him, I don't get it? If it's him forgiving the people, well, dying for others doesn't seem like a good job for that. 

And mixing up forgiveness and free will? Maybe, because I don't see that at all. I don't see forgiveness really part of that. And free will? I feel, that's something I don't feel makes sense to me. I personally don't think free will, can be given. 

Sorry, DC, I don't see it this way. If every, I'm back at the way it makes sense to me. That it's a teaching of personal responsibility. Because, of the fact that I don't see 'free will' and 'forgiveness' as something as an action. I see them as instinctive behavioral responses. And my life of observance, experiences, and understanding of how they are done, has taught me that. 

So, this bit, understandably to me, still doesn't make sense. 

One thing about the Bible is that it was written for a different audience then modern man. So, to learn what they meant, it requires a bit of "translating" (Blatant reference to the Thread Topic...). I've talked to a few people who really were stuck on the idea of Paul speaking only about food, and then later only about himself. But, it is the spirit of the teaching that really matters. Paul says, basically, do what you will and don't condemn others for what they do.

I've found that trying to explain the "Perfect Sacrifice" of Jesus is so confusing to people. I think all that really matters, on the basic level, is that due to Jesus, no sacrifices ever need be made again. Any and all sacrifices are covered by Jesus.

Quote

I'm not disputing that. And there a lot of times, I have seen that I'm unique in various aspects of that, or I'm in the small groups of it. Despite that it seems to be working on more than a lot, still doesn't have me understand that it does. I will be in the small ratio that still doesn't understand how and why it does work. 

And the second part of this particular quote I quoted may give away as to why it 'seems' to work on most. Because 'we've been raised that way for generations'. (though, since you were raised secular like me, I'm curious as to how you found how you could believe in your adulthood. Since you ended up reading the bible all the way through, and it didn't do anything for me, ) 

Being raised in it, could bring it's own biased pre-set. And that's how I also could see my unique way of looking at it. I wasn't it, so when it comes to how some would lecture on it, and it confuses me understandably, it will confuse me understandably. I honestly cannot see it to believe it, and I will be honest with myself. Granted, I think differently with most people, but I know I'm not alone. Plus, how about others not raised in it and how they would see it? 

I would have to agree, being raised in it does give you the insight to understand. I've been told innumerable times that I can't understand the prejudiced and bias black people face everyday, because I was not born black. So that makes sense to me. On the flip side, should then the secularly raised have the right to ban, or limit, the religion of those whom they then do not understand?

I do understand that many dislike religion, and specifically Christianity, due to personal experiences. However, like with other things, like Liberalism, or Communism, or Socialism, should we ban something that looks good on paper, if we've simply known a few, or a bunch, of bad people who follow those practices? Like Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but not your Christians.". 

Quote

Yes, that would make sense, but this would put it in a different setting. Instead of faith, and belief, and a religion, you would have laws, and a visible leader. Yes, you wouldn't have a religion anymore, you would have something else. 

And I understand that it wouldn't be faith. I understand that with my belief. 

But here's the kicker here, when it comes to that. If it's the mindset to get more people into one particular mindset of one particular belief, wouldn't it be that the goal is to get everyone to consider that as fact? Wouldn't it be judgmental toward their own beliefs and insisting they lose their faith of their own religion to change to your's? I would think, that you also see it as your own truth. As on to that, there would be a conflict of pushing their belief into something, they originally don't believe. 

I think there's a confusing thought of how one does see their belief and if it's still belief to them or personal subjective fact to them. 

As to getting other people to convert... I've always been of the path to live well, help others, do good things.... be a super good example, such that people will ask... Why is he such a good guy... Because he's a Christian. 

I really don't go in for the Evangelizing. Sitting people down and forcing a repetition of the message of Jesus on them. That has NEVER worked as far as I can tell. The only way a person will permanently convert is if they WANT to convert. Because you've shown them something special they aren't getting in any other way. 

People in the Industrialized "West" has so few things they want, and have been conditioned to believe that if they have a "Western" lifestyle, that they lack for nothing, that Evangelizing simply isn't going to work on them. On the other hand, those people in the 3rd world who have Nothing, and don't even have hope... Will eat up any belief system that leads off with Hope, Love and redemption. 

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9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
On 8/12/2017 at 9:32 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

But?!   But?!?!  But?!?! 

The paper cuts!!!!!  ...................... Yikes......................... :blink: ................................. *cringes* 

Yeah! :tu:  

You have to fold it over first, so the sharp sides are facing out.

Silly me. :o   

:D 

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

Oh yeah! I think you've made mention this before, here on this board. I forgot about that. Of course, the difference between you and me, is that I never made the conversion (or really cracked open a bible) at all. Nothing wrong with what you or I did, just how my path went. I think a lot of it became as it was, because of my observations of others, and ending up marrying into a similar family. 

I very likely would have remained non-religious, if it had not been for some friends from college I stayed with after I got out of the military. 

I'd like to think that my actions in life would still have been the same. I'd still have been a "good" person with or without religion. And I do find the "One Thing", that most Christians get hung up on to be a hang up... That unless you accept Jesus into your life... While you are alive, then you are doomed. I like to think that you can change your belief at any time, and sign onto the side of Jesus and Heaven.

Wow, I feel the same thing to. I often reflect, and then come to a conclusion about how is it that it's only in this life that you make a choice and that is how you judged to what kind of afterlife you have. The way I see it, if there is one, there are many moves and choices I would think available for you. 

I think, you would have still be a good person if you stayed non-religious, based on my observations of you on this board. :)  :D  

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

There were individuals who were handing out pocket bibles in both the community college and state university I attended and graduated from. I looked at a page here and there and went, ....................... 'nah, can't see this being something I can understandingly and honestly read and put into my life. 

And on top of that, I have observed varying Christians who talk about this and that, and I'm like :unsure:  and :unsure2: 

Nothing wrong with handing out Bibles, I think. It is telling people they will go to Hell if they don't memorize every word, that is the problem.

I was pretty much the same in my 20's. I was like, "No time for this....". Especially after having bad experiences in Georgia, with a church that picked up soldiers and then wouldn't drive them home unless they "tithed" enough into the plate. That was pure and simple BullSh*t.

I agree, that there's nothing wrong with handing out bibles. And the two individuals who were handing them out at each of the colleges I was attending, were not pushing them on people. Just handing them out to those who accepted them. And I agree, that it is my feeling that yelling at someone of them not memorizing them would mean they are going to hell. It's kind of like that lady customer, when I was a bookseller in Jersey, who yelled at me to read my bible, when I honestly told her I don't know it, when she asked me a question about it. I feel, that she was wrong in judging me on it, and mostly so in a country that says you don't have to. 

(Frankly, in my opinion judging solely on this one lady and incident, how can I see how reading the bible is going to make you a good person, when one person who yells at me for not knowing it, is behaving in a manner contrary to that. *shrugs*) 

But, fortunately, I have many observations of various people, good and bad behaviors, when it comes to the bible and who did or didn't read it. ;) 

Now, as someone who was raised not going to religious services, but had

an idea of the tithing and such, I don't have that much experience to complain about it. One part of me, probably understands, that it's probably necessary, because it's not like it's a for profit type institution, so they have to get their funds from somewhere, right? Kind of like taxes help fund for schools. 

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

I'm not disputing that. And there a lot of times, I have seen that I'm unique in various aspects of that, or I'm in the small groups of it. Despite that it seems to be working on more than a lot, still doesn't have me understand that it does. I will be in the small ratio that still doesn't understand how and why it does work. 

And the second part of this particular quote I quoted may give away as to why it 'seems' to work on most. Because 'we've been raised that way for generations'. (though, since you were raised secular like me, I'm curious as to how you found how you could believe in your adulthood. Since you ended up reading the bible all the way through, and it didn't do anything for me, ) 

Being raised in it, could bring it's own biased pre-set. And that's how I also could see my unique way of looking at it. I wasn't it, so when it comes to how some would lecture on it, and it confuses me understandably, it will confuse me understandably. I honestly cannot see it to believe it, and I will be honest with myself. Granted, I think differently with most people, but I know I'm not alone. Plus, how about others not raised in it and how they would see it? 

I would have to agree, being raised in it does give you the insight to understand. I've been told innumerable times that I can't understand the prejudiced and bias black people face everyday, because I was not born black. So that makes sense to me. On the flip side, should then the secularly raised have the right to ban, or limit, the religion of those whom they then do not understand?

Well, I would think it's a universal, 'Of course not!'. I don't think any would have the right to control others in how they go about their paths in life. My point is that, the way I was raised, would be a way of telling proselyting people, that there is no way I can 'believe' what they are telling me. I'm just saying, that its something to be kept from converting me to their religion. I'm not saying, that I would have a right to make them stop believing in what they believe, and to stop them from a path that they have. In fact, that would be wrong of me, because I think there is so much out there, and that their growing up may have something that has them believing it still, so I know I cannot argue with them to stop what is true to them. I'm just saying, it's not effective in them trying to control my path based on how I was raised. 

Quote

I do understand that many dislike religion, and specifically Christianity, due to personal experiences. However, like with other things, like Liberalism, or Communism, or Socialism, should we ban something that looks good on paper, if we've simply known a few, or a bunch, of bad people who follow those practices? Like Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but not your Christians.". 

Well, I feel, it is all boiled down to varying subjective experiences in the end, right? I'm in agreement to Gandhi's quote there. If anything, this should be a moral to this story, don't put down others, as you don't want to be put down as well. :) 

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

Yeah, I get that it was harsh, but it still seems like trying to raise children by simply abusing them and scaring the life out of them. And they behave with no life in them. *shrugs* 

Ahhh, well I guess this could be a good description to that. :hmm:  ...................... regret, I could use that in my 'forgiveness' thread. ;)  :devil:   Makes me wonder how useful regret can be. But to me, it could be harmful if directed to the wrong people. ;)  

I liked jccmr8's wording... "...know it's wrong and do it anyway...".

*shrugs* :D  :innocent: 

9 hours ago, DieChecker said:
Quote

I don't plan on it. Sorry to be blunt, but I and my belief, see no reason behind it. 

......................... so, I thank you for your input on this. :D  :tu: 

Well, I don't get that. It all matters if it's looked upon one particular higher power who says if it's bad or not? I have come to a realization, when I was young, that how it's looked, how it's symbolized as bad or good, doesn't make sense. I consider that a waste of mental and physical energy of how it's looked at. If it's bad, then don't do it, for one knows what the outcome is. Same thing on if it's good, then it's good, so do it. If my neighbor does something, no matter how a higher power considers it, and it seems overall objectively bad, then I wouldn't blame myself for judging them harshly about it. 

No problem. I don't even believe that reading the Bible is a requirement of Christianity. The messages behind Jesus are pretty basic, and if they are followed, a person should be fine to get into the afterlife. The key would be getting your info from someone who is knowledgeable and whom you can trust.

Well, yeah. But, for me and this is considering how I see it, since it's all part of a subjective faith, is it the information totally knowledgeable and trustworthy, or is it the messenger who knows how to interpret it and how they treat you?

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

One thing about the Bible is that it was written for a different audience then modern man. So, to learn what they meant, it requires a bit of "translating" (Blatant reference to the Thread Topic...). I've talked to a few people who really were stuck on the idea of Paul speaking only about food, and then later only about himself. But, it is the spirit of the teaching that really matters. Paul says, basically, do what you will and don't condemn others for what they do.

I've found that trying to explain the "Perfect Sacrifice" of Jesus is so confusing to people. I think all that really matters, on the basic level, is that due to Jesus, no sacrifices ever need be made again. Any and all sacrifices are covered by Jesus.

Well, I still strongly feel, that it seems all up to interpretation. It's almost like how I interpreted Tarot cards. Despite those who I did readings on have all told me that it has come true for them and for the better, yet a friend of mine who was more immersed and had more versions of deck on her, was saying I was doing the Tarot wrong. :blink:  So, I can't say for sure, what is right or wrong. 

And that, if it is up to interpretation and it brings good to some of those who interpreted a certain way, how can that be disputed as wrong or bad? (Kind of how I was told that even though I interpreted Spencer Johnson's  Who Moved My Cheese in a different manner, it was still found to be very positive and interesting. ((And, this was coming from someone who I definitely trust.)). 

I also consider, from what I have observed of David Koresh and the Waco situation, it looked like to me, that he interpreted the bible differently and he preached it to his followers, and it makes me wonder how one can do that. *shrugs* 

And on that bit about the sacrifice of Jesus, and it being that his one sacrifice should do that trick, I don't see it. Frankly, I have seen many different interpretations of his sacrifice, and for me, I don't think it sent the message or did the miraculous thing I feel it's suppose to be. Even more so, when I have observe some jokingly make the points of Jesus dying for people's sins, so they should do them anyway. *shrugs* 

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

As to getting other people to convert... I've always been of the path to live well, help others, do good things.... be a super good example, such that people will ask... Why is he such a good guy... Because he's a Christian. 

I really don't go in for the Evangelizing. Sitting people down and forcing a repetition of the message of Jesus on them. That has NEVER worked as far as I can tell. The only way a person will permanently convert is if they WANT to convert. Because you've shown them something special they aren't getting in any other way. 

People in the Industrialized "West" has so few things they want, and have been conditioned to believe that if they have a "Western" lifestyle, that they lack for nothing, that Evangelizing simply isn't going to work on them. On the other hand, those people in the 3rd world who have Nothing, and don't even have hope... Will eat up any belief system that leads off with Hope, Love and redemption. 

In a sense, I think you are correct. And it seems, even in my belief, when it comes to praying, to asking, to act within your belief, is when you're in a situation that is not to your liking. I wonder, if that is good to have such situations, so you do practice your belief. On the other hand, doesn't give a good credibility to one's person, if this is what happens to the follower. I kind of reflect on this every time I hear Five for Fighting's Freedom never cries song: 

I never loved the soldier until there was a war
Or thought about tomorrow
'Til my baby hit the floor

I only talk to God when somebody's about to die
I never cherished freedom
Freedom never cries

It doesn't become useful, until you actually need it. I wonder if we all need to reflect on that. So, in a sense, those who proselytize to others, the message will not work in my feeling, based on how the uninvited victim will not want it, as you say. I wonder, how does the proselytizer see it. So, I would agree, that the religious or none religious person too, practice their path for themselves all of the time, I would think, some would take notice. :) 

 

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