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How do you translate the Bible?

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, but we're a couple of old farts mucking around in our grandchildren's future. What's new to us is ancient history to them.

LOL I'd look at  it the other way around   What is new to them is ancient history to me.  Who better to shape the world for our grandkids. (or in my case great grand nieces and nephews)  Us or them?  The wisdom and civilization of mankind is only 2 generations deep at any one time. I can still live without a mobile phone ( or  even electricity, at a pinch)    . 

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Hammerclaw
18 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

when were specific laws protecting children form parents employers or institutions introduced  

1802.                                       https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/history-child-labor/       

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

LOL I'd look at  it the other way around   What is new to them is ancient history to me.  Who better to shape the world for our grandkids. (or in my case great grand nieces and nephews)  Us or them?  The wisdom and civilization of mankind is only 2 generations deep at any one time. I can still live without a mobile phone ( or  even electricity, at a pinch)    . 

Well, you just illustrated my point, which is the futility of expecting the present to conform to the norms acceptable in the past. You can either embrace the future or be stranded on the road to it, looking over your shoulder, longing for the past.

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

1802.                                       https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/history-child-labor/       

from your source

In the United States it took many years to outlaw child labor. By 1899, 28 states had passed laws regulating child labor. Many efforts were made to pass a national child labor law. The U.S. Congress passed two laws, in 1918 and 1922, but the Supreme Court declared both unconstitutional. In 1924, Congress proposed a constitutional amendment prohibiting child labor, but the states did not ratify it. Then, in 1938, Congress passed the Fair Labor Standards Act. It fixed minimum ages of 16 for work during school hours, 14 for certain jobs after school, and 18 for dangerous work. Today all the states and the U.S. government have laws regulating child labor. These laws have cured the worst evils of children working in factories.

But some kinds of work are not regulated. Children of migrant workers, for example, have no legal protection. Farmers may legally employ them outside of school hours. The children pick crops in the fields and move from place to place, so they get little schooling.

And yes in australia free and compulsory education was introduced in the 1870s, so there were gradual evolutions of improvement    However not enough to negate the point i was making about the modern era of child protection which began in the late 60s early seventies inthe west and is till speeding up.  

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Hammerclaw
6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

from your source

In the United States it took many years to outlaw child labor. By 1899, 28 states had passed laws regulating child labor. Many efforts were made to pass a national child labor law. The U.S. Congress passed two laws, in 1918 and 1922, but the Supreme Court declared both unconstitutional. In 1924, Congress proposed a constitutional amendment prohibiting child labor, but the states did not ratify it. Then, in 1938, Congress passed the Fair Labor Standards Act. It fixed minimum ages of 16 for work during school hours, 14 for certain jobs after school, and 18 for dangerous work. Today all the states and the U.S. government have laws regulating child labor. These laws have cured the worst evils of children working in factories.

But some kinds of work are not regulated. Children of migrant workers, for example, have no legal protection. Farmers may legally employ them outside of school hours. The children pick crops in the fields and move from place to place, so they get little schooling.

And yes in australia free and compulsory education was introduced in the 1870s, so there were gradual evolutions of improvement    However not enough to negate the point i was making about the modern era of child protection which began in the late 60s early seventies inthe west and is till speeding up.  

That was the twentieth century, Mr. Walker, this is the twenty-first, a new era, new norms, new generations who look condescendingly on any obsessed with history of half a century ago. They'll build their own future, regardless of what we think, two old relics from a past they never knew, much less have forgotten.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Mr Walker
Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Well, you just illustrated my point, which is the futility of expecting the present to conform to the norms acceptable in the past. You can either embrace the future or be stranded on the road to it, looking over your shoulder, longing for the past.

No you van adapt the best features of past societies and plan to integrate them into future models  Societies are shaped and formed basically by economics and social dynamics.  These are in turn shaped by both new technologies and sciences but also legal changes.  For example the women's liberation and emancipation which began in the 60s and seventies also depended on two main factors. First an effective fertility control which allowed women to regulate their fertility But second, the demand in an expanding economy for more labour  The only source of this labour was women  (especially married women)  who had historically been unemployed or underemployed. Thus  there were deliberate policies to facilitate the movement of women into the workforce, from laws on employment to changes in taxation  frameworks. For example until the 1960s a married woman had to resign from work in any govt job like teaching.   This was changed in the sixties.  A woman could not open a bank account or get a passport without her husband's consent until the 1970s As women's power grew this was legally changed   I find this sort of social demography fascinating both in the past and in its application to present and future trends  for example i wonder  how many women realise how new and fragile their empowerment is  and how it could be threatened by changes in demographics  

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Mr Walker
11 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

That was the twentieth century, Mr. Walker, this is the twenty-first, a new era, new norms, new generations who look condescendingly on any obsessed with history of half a century ago. They'll build their own future, regardless of what we think, two old relics from a past they never knew, much less have forgotten.

If they do they will get it badly wrong  :)    Only using knowldge learned through history can a better future be built

Social norms are determined by economic realities.

i wonder what a society will look like when the population is in rapid decline,  children are increasingly valuable, and precious, and seen to belong to all rather than just parents,  and   old people hold even greater political and economic power. :) 

Plus society is, and always has been,  both cyclical and generational    Values moralities and ethics of the past, are thus likely to make a strong resurgence in the near future.  For example when i was a teenger the legal drinking age was 21. it was changed to 18 around the early seventies Today there is a strong movement to raise it to 21 again, given what we know about adolescent  brain development, and vulnerability to damage from alcohol 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Hammerclaw
8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No you van adapt the best features of past societies and plan to integrate them into future models  Societies are shaped and formed basically by economics and social dynamics.  These are in turn shaped by both new technologies and sciences but also legal changes.  For example the women's liberation and emancipation which began in the 60s and seventies also depended on two main factors. First an effective fertility control which allowed women to regulate their fertility But second, the demand in an expanding economy for more labour  The only source of this labour was women  (especially married women)  who had historically been unemployed or underemployed. Thus  there were deliberate policies to facilitate the movement of women into the workforce, from laws on employment to changes in taxation  frameworks. For example until the 1960s a married woman had to resign from work in any govt job like teaching.   This was changed in the sixties.  A woman could not open a bank account or get a passport without her husband's consent until the 1970s As women's power grew this was legally changed   I find this sort of social demography fascinating both in the past and in its application to present and future trends  for example i wonder  how many women realise how new and fragile their empowerment is  and how it could be threatened by changes in demographics  

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, barring a total collapse of world civilization and reversion to the savagery of another time. Highly unlikely and as you point out, time marches on, treading heavily on what was to become what will be. It's a brave new world made for the young, fresh and vibrant with life and anticipation, all dewy eyed with innocence, oblivious to the past, their minds fixated on the future.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Mr Walker
7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, barring a total collapse of world civilization and reversion to the savagery of another time. Highly unlikely and as you point out, time marches on, treading heavily on what was to become what will be. It's a brave new world made for the young, fresh and vibrant with life and anticipation, all dewy eyed with innocence, oblivious to the past, their minds fixated on the future.

 I am not sure whether to laugh or cry. The energy to create or destroy is the same energy and it requires some wisdom to differentiate the use of such energy.  I admire your optimism,    but i have some doubts

 I read a lot of face book from young people, having taught so many, and retaining contact with them. The number who cannot read or write  coherently and accurately   (not my students of course)  let alone think rationally logically or deeply, is very disturbing Thankfully these are people unlikely to have much power or authority in any future society,. although with compulsory voting in australia they will influence policies.  i do have a lot of confidence in the young but this is, in part, BECAUSE the y have the wisdoms and knowledge of their parents and grandparents to call upon if needed.  But what' s that saying? Never really trust anyone under 30 ? :) 

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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If they do they will get it badly wrong  :)    Only using knowldge learned through history can a better future be built

Social norms are determined by economic realities.

i wonder what a society will look like when the population is in rapid decline,  children are increasingly valuable, and precious, and seen to belong to all rather than just parents,  and   old people hold even greater political and economic power. :) 

Plus society is, and always has been,  both cyclical and generational    Values moralities and ethics of the past, are thus likely to make a strong resurgence in the near future. 

So the old always desperately hope and think, like Trump wanting to make America great, again, yearning for the eidolon he makes of the past. It is foolish to be blinded of the greatness which persists, the glory and grandeur all around us, while we chide the young for being as arrogant and self-assured as we were in our time, when our future stretched out before us with empty, pristine pages, begging for our hand to write in large letters upon them.

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jmccr8
19 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You can't put the genie back in the bottle, barring a total collapse of world civilization and reversion to the savagery of another time. Highly unlikely and as you point out, time marches on, treading heavily on what was to become what will be. It's a brave new world made for the young, fresh and vibrant with life and anticipation, all dewy eyed with innocence, oblivious to the past, their minds fixated on the future.

When my Dad and I went out to the garage with a six of pilsner for that father son talk, all he said was when I was 16 I thought I invented sex, then we drank beer.:huh::lol:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So the old always desperately hope and think, like Trump wanting to make America great, again, yearning for the eidolon he makes of the past. It is foolish to be blinded of the greatness which persists, the glory and grandeur all around us, while we chide the young for being as arrogant and self-assured as we were in our time, when our future stretched out before us with empty, pristine pages, begging for our hand to write in large letters upon them.

Not how I see the world at all.  I occupy a short time on a huge timeline which i can experience from primordial times far into the future. I weave a tiny golden thread into a majestic tapestry of life Not greatly influencing the tapestry, yet making a unique contribution Without my contribution a small weakness or tear would exist in the fabric and spread out to weaken and damage other threads

 I try not to generalise, yet some statistical truths are objectively clear   I do believe the future will be the best of all times for humanity, and that today is the best of all times so far, but i attribute that to the  accumulation of science, technology, and hopefully, wisdoms which grow with each passing generation .  

I don't envy the young. I grew up in pretty well a perfect time and place to be young.  Modern youth have it much harder than i did, albeit with more opportunities.  As a consequence youth depression and suicide is endemic and many young people are left without the skills needed to survive and be happy.

It is the job of us old farts to show them how to be happy, successful, and  confident, and to help them survive until their minds /brains have matured enough to give them a better chance to survive on their own.

Ps many people on UM  would tell you i  couldnt be much more  arrogant and self assured than I am now :)

 For me these are qualities of maturity.

Youth is a time of angst, insecurity,  and uncertainty   Heck just kissing a girl well enough to make an impression for the first time is a challenge. let alone all the other expectations on them which they  don't have the experience, resources, skills or knowledge, to  meet    

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Hammerclaw
28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Not how I see the world at all.  I occupy a short time on a huge timeline which i can experience from primordial times far into the future. I weave a tiny golden thread into a majestic tapestry of life Not greatly influencing the tapestry, yet making a unique contribution Without my contribution a small weakness or tear would exist in the fabric and spread out to weaken and damage other threads

 I try not to generalise, yet some statistical truths are objectively clear   I do believe the future will be the best of all times for humanity, and that today is the best of all times so far, but i attribute that to the  accumulation of science, technology, and hopefully, wisdoms which grow with each passing generation .  

I don't envy the young. I grew up in pretty well a perfect time and place to be young.  Modern youth have it much harder than i did, albeit with more opportunities.  As a consequence youth depression and suicide is endemic and many young people are left without the skills needed to survive and be happy.

It is the job of us old farts to show them how to be happy, successful, and  confident, and to help them survive until their minds /brains have matured enough to give them a better chance to survive on their own.

Ps many people on UM  would tell you i  couldnt be much more  arrogant and self assured than I am now :)

 For me these are qualities of maturity.

Youth is a time of angst, insecurity,  and uncertainty   Heck just kissing a girl well enough to make an impression for the first time is a challenge. let alone all the other expectations on them which they  don't have the experience, resources, skills or knowledge, to  meet    

Yes, yes, there's little doubt you are a legend in your own mind---but not mine, nor anyone else's for that matter. So, save your self-gratuitous pats on the back for lesser minds. All it evokes in me is amusement and contempt. I can accept rational and reasonable arguments from you--even though I don't agree with them. Your pompous conceit and megalomaniacal arrogance is beyond the pale of reasonable discourse, however. Save it for the rubes.

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Hammerclaw
50 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Not how I see the world at all.  I occupy a short time on a huge timeline which i can experience from primordial times far into the future. I weave a tiny golden thread into a majestic tapestry of life Not greatly influencing the tapestry, yet making a unique contribution Without my contribution a small weakness or tear would exist in the fabric and spread out to weaken and damage other threads

 I try not to generalise, yet some statistical truths are objectively clear   I do believe the future will be the best of all times for humanity, and that today is the best of all times so far, but i attribute that to the  accumulation of science, technology, and hopefully, wisdoms which grow with each passing generation .  

I don't envy the young. I grew up in pretty well a perfect time and place to be young.  Modern youth have it much harder than i did, albeit with more opportunities.  As a consequence youth depression and suicide is endemic and many young people are left without the skills needed to survive and be happy.

It is the job of us old farts to show them how to be happy, successful, and  confident, and to help them survive until their minds /brains have matured enough to give them a better chance to survive on their own.

Ps many people on UM  would tell you i  couldnt be much more  arrogant and self assured than I am now :)

 For me these are qualities of maturity.

Youth is a time of angst, insecurity,  and uncertainty   Heck just kissing a girl well enough to make an impression for the first time is a challenge. let alone all the other expectations on them which they  don't have the experience, resources, skills or knowledge, to  meet    

Oh, bro-ther! Here's your song.                                                           

 

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jmccr8
52 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't envy the young. I grew up in pretty well a perfect time and place to be young.  Modern youth have it much harder than i did, albeit with more opportunities.  As a consequence youth depression and suicide is endemic and many young people are left without the skills needed to survive and be happy.

There are many things from my past that I wish I could share in the same sense of experience that they occurred in but considering the diversity of other people's experience of the same type of situations, the meaning is lost or misunderstood/adapted to the environment of the of the observe, so I try to maintain my silence. I joined this site to learn by testing how I perceived my environment compared to other people in different parts of the world.To tell the truth you are an oddity, I was involved in a survey that later phoned me and said that I was a social anomaly so don't take it personal.:)

 The lads I grew up with and were my boys started dropping when I was 20 and buy the time I was 27 I buried the last best friend, many of them committed suicide so I fail to see your point. When I was younger there were less people, now there are more of course there are more suicides. For me that is a non-point, please refine your position  to be more reflective of a broader spectrum of influence.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

It is the job of us old farts to show them how to be happy, successful, and  confident, and to help them survive

Sometimes we have to let them experience life, but then that is something a child teaches you, the joy of experience.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, yes, there's little doubt you are a legend in your own mind---but not mine, nor anyone else's for that matter. So, save your self-gratuitous pats on the back for lesser minds. All it evokes in me is amusement and contempt. I can accept rational and reasonable arguments from you--even though I don't agree with them. Your pompous conceit and megalomaniacal arrogance is beyond the pale of reasonable discourse, however. Save it for the rubes.

LOL  You poor old thing. You really are having a bad time of it.  Where DO you draw such conclusions from?  Never mind.  I think i can guess.

I appreciate my luck and good fortune, but have always used it to help others.

 I model my life on that of my parents, grand parents, aunts and uncles  whose experience and wisdoms spanned three centuries, a major depression,  the two world wars,  and a dozen minor ones   and saw incredible changes in the world,  yet maintained the same  honest and decent, loving and caring, ethics and moralities  for all that time. it  has worked well for all of us. 

 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

There are many things from my past that I wish I could share in the same sense of experience that they occurred in but considering the diversity of other people's experience of the same type of situations, the meaning is lost or misunderstood/adapted to the environment of the of the observe, so I try to maintain my silence. I joined this site to learn by testing how I perceived my environment compared to other people in different parts of the world.To tell the truth you are an oddity, I was involved in a survey that later phoned me and said that I was a social anomaly so don't take it personal.:)

 The lads I grew up with and were my boys started dropping when I was 20 and buy the time I was 27 I buried the last best friend, many of them committed suicide so I fail to see your point. When I was younger there were less people, now there are more of course there are more suicides. For me that is a non-point, please refine your position  to be more reflective of a broader spectrum of influence.

Sometimes we have to let them experience life, but then that is something a child teaches you, the joy of experience.

jmccr8

The rates of suicide and depression are what are increasing not just the numbers  Suicide is now the biggest cause of death in young australians and especially in males  It is also a significant cause of death in the elderly  Depression is a t record highs not numerically but as a percentage of the population While rates were at their highest in the 1990s and declined with a lot of additional resources and money  they are now increasing again 

Suicide was the leading cause of death among all people 15-44 years of age, and the second leading cause of death among those 45-54 years of age," the ABS said in its sobering report.

"In 2015, suicide accounted for one-third of deaths (33.9 percent) among people 15-24 years of age, and over a quarter of deaths (27.7 percent) among those 25-34 years of age." 

 

get that.  ONE THIRD of deaths for australians aged 15 to 44 were self inflicted  if that does not seem both incredibly sad and  totally unacceptable then there is something wrong.   WHY would one third of people want to take their own lives. HOW could their lives be so miserable that death was preferable?  and of course successful suicides are only part of the story. I have three members of one family who attempted suicide in their youth  ages 15 , 17 and 24 One succeeded two survived.  

The rise in suicide rates has also been mirrored by a rise in self-harm, according to the report, with hospitalisations for self-poisoning among women spiking in recent years.

Dr Robinson said the issue was not being taken seriously by the community and health services.

"We know one of the myths around self-harm is that young people who engage in self-harm are really attention-seeking and what we would say is that is absolutely not the case," she said.

We can't "cotton wool" kids but we can give them resilience, coping strategies, self esteem and self love and other things needed to suicide proof them and to give them confidence and hope.

In deed i think that one of the reasons for higher suicides is the disconnection  of young people form real life challenges which allow them to grow and mature, taking controlled risks and  facing some dangers.

  Another is the breakdown of families which disconnects young people from families which are supposed to be there for them, loving them, protecting them, caring for them and helping them  The loss of  even one parent to death or divorce/separation is one of the highest risk factors in a young person's life, for depression suicide and mental illness. 

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Galactic Goatman
10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

This is the law of natural consequence not just of "god"  Every action, and indeed every thought, has a consequence.   Wrong deeds will have harmful or destructive consequences  good deeds productive and beneficial consequences

The bible points out a rule of nature. People who live good lives will, in general, HAVE good lives. People who live bad lives will, in general, have bad lives.

(never commit a crime and you will never go to gaol Never speed and you will never get a speeding ticket ) Never get drunk and you will never have a hangover :) 

 The bible uses god to illustrate the ultimate consequences of a good life, and a bad one. A good life (in christian theology) leads to immortality, a bad one to the death of body and soul (not to eternal punishment in hell which is a catholic construct, and not biblical)  

Also, a good life leads to peace of mind and heart/soul. A bad life, because we are self aware beings, leads to inner turmoil  and  unhappiness. (unless you are a sociopath)  

I think wise men in the past figured this all out and then constructed moralities and behaviours designed  to help people and maintain safety and order in their societies.   They then involved/invoked the authority of a god figure to  enforce compliance

Many people don't like to be told that certain behaviours are wrong because they are harmful. They resent anyone who tells them a truth like this   However, any good parent or leader will point out to the young ( and the stupid) learned wisdoms, to try and help them avoid making mistakes and hurting themselves or others.

Once you accept that no human being is an island free from others, and that the actions of one ALWAYS impact on many,  you come to realise that every human being has a responsibility to others to help them and to protect them even if it means curtailing some of their liberties.   And that every one of us has a duty to curtail some of our own freedoms and desires, to ensure we do not do harm. 

I am 22. I have prayed not a day in my life. I have lived a good life, without gods or demons. :) One can have good without god. 

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

LOL  You poor old thing. You really are having a bad time of it.  Where DO you draw such conclusions from?  Never mind.  I think i can guess.

I appreciate my luck and good fortune, but have always used it to help others.

 I model my life on that of my parents, grand parents, aunts and uncles  whose experience and wisdoms spanned three centuries, a major depression,  the two world wars,  and a dozen minor ones   and saw incredible changes in the world,  yet maintained the same  honest and decent, loving and caring, ethics and moralities  for all that time. it  has worked well for all of us. 

 

Congratulations, you said something believable, that time. So much more reasonable when you leave the delusional nonsense out.

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cluey

your own interpretation of the bible is a personal translation.....you can see god as a person or everything that exists.......or you can put all in your life as a learning tool to make your own translation of life,creation and make your own bible that you live by.......jmo...

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DieChecker
On 8/4/2017 at 3:45 PM, AustinHinton said:

Well I certainly wouldn't want a protector that threatens to damn me to hell if I don't do as he says. That is not a god, that is an abuser, a mob boss. Do as he says for protection, or suffer if you don't. 

I think it depends. When your parents asked you to not grab a hot stove when you were a kid, was it tyranny? If you did and they sent you to your room, were they trying to teach you something? Sure, Hell is forever... All the more reason to try to understand what might send you there and avoid it. A good read of what Jesus taught and the Apostles spread around, seems to show that the rules, such as they are, are not so onerous. There are even Christian churches that basically have no rules... Like the Unitarian Universalists.

 

Edited by DieChecker

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Galactic Goatman
6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I think it depends. When your parents asked you to not grab a hot stove when you were a kid, was it tyranny? If you did and they sent you to your room, were they trying to teach you something? Sure, Hell is forever... All the more reason to try to understand what might send you there and avoid it. A good read of what Jesus taught and the Apostles spread around, seems to show that the rules, such as they are, are not so onerous. There are even Christian churches that basically have no rules... Like the Unitarian Universalists.

 

Again, any god that damns someone to hell is not a god worth worshipping. The use of threats to control you is not a healthy relationship between man and deity. 

And who's to say, if there really is a god(s) that it's the Christian one? ;) For all we know, the one true god could be Ra, or Odin, or Poseidon. 

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jmccr8

Just to be clear the bible is in Engish so its not how I translate it ,it would be more relevant as to how do I intrerpret it in english

jmccr8

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jmccr8
On 8/5/2017 at 5:19 AM, Mr Walker said:

"In 2015, suicide accounted for one-third of deaths (33.9 percent) among people 15-24 years of age, and over a quarter of deaths (27.7 percent) among those 25-34 years of age." 

 

And your point is,.. if you read my post then you would know that 40 some years ago that I had experienced the loss of people that I cared about. Your stats do nothing to change what I have said.

jmccr8

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 8/6/2017 at 6:53 AM, DieChecker said:

I think it depends. When your parents asked you to not grab a hot stove when you were a kid, was it tyranny? If you did and they sent you to your room, were they trying to teach you something?

I never had my children do this, but a child of a friend's did. And the first thing immediately after the child did grab (or in this case touch) a hot stove, was not being sent to their room. I believe the child was taken to emergency services to take care of the severe burned hand. It would have been something I would have done, if my kids did the same. I would think, the ramifications of the touching the hot stove was message enough not to do it again. A parent who does differently, and just sent a child to their room, (only punishes) ignoring the severe ramifications of what they did, is a parent ignoring the welfare of their child. 

On 8/6/2017 at 6:53 AM, DieChecker said:

Sure, Hell is forever... All the more reason to try to understand what might send you there and avoid it.

I don't know if the child touching the hot stove is a good example, I feel. Plus, I think Austin makes a good point. (Along with your words,) That Hell being forever, it is something extremely severe for a loving 'parent' to do. You talk about avoiding it, well, I think there are probably better ways of prevention. Like a parent would work hard to child proof a home, there probably should be better and believable ways of avoiding something. Using eternal hell, doesn't seem like a loving way to get the message across. 

 

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