Italy has had enough Refugees

[Golden Duck]

2 hours ago, keithisco said:

Did I mention Somalia or Nigeria??? No? Then I suggest you look up the countries in which these groups operate.

Yep you definitely mentioned Kenya ... check.

Yep you defintely mentioned SouthAfrica....xenophobic violence...check

[keithisco]

1 minute ago, Golden Duck said:

Yep you definitely mentioned Kenya ... check.

Yep you defintely mentioned SouthAfrica....xenophobic violence...check

Such a puerile response does not deserve a considered unmasking of your ignorance

[Golden Duck]

14 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Such a puerile response does not deserve a considered unmasking of your ignorance

Cherry pick away.  Al Shabaab were responsible for the shopping mall shooting in Nairobi. 

Are you saying there is no such thing as Xenophobic violence in ZA?

[keithisco]

9 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Cherry pick away.  Al Shabaab were responsible for the shopping mall shooting in Nairobi. 

Are you saying there is no such thing as Xenophobic violence in ZA?

You are really poor at this debating thing. You cherry-pick an isolated terrorist attack in Kenya and extrapolate it to mean that the whole of Kenya is in the grip of terror gangs. By your logic then the terror attacks in the UK means that it is also in the thrall of terrorism so you are making my point for me. Why would you agree to have these migrants come to such a "cesspit" of turmoil? There is no clarity in your thinking.

Is there xenophobic violence in every single country in the world? You bet there is even in Europe so again you make my point.

[RoofGardener]

I'm showing my ignorance of geography here but... well... I don't think Kenya or Nigeria are a part of Italy ? 

[keithisco]

13 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I'm showing my ignorance of geography here but... well... I don't think Kenya or Nigeria are a part of Italy ? 

Well spotted... I was suggesting that rather than Italy why do the migrants not go to Kenya or S.A. Both safe countries, not on the "Risk" list - but they do not pay such generous benefits. 

[Golden Duck]

12 minutes ago, keithisco said:

You are really poor at this debating thing. You cherry-pick an isolated terrorist attack in Kenya and extrapolate it to mean that the whole of Kenya is in the grip of terror gangs. By your logic then the terror attacks in the UK means that it is also in the thrall of terrorism so you are making my point for me. Why would you agree to have these migrants come to such a "cesspit" of turmoil? There is no clarity in your thinking.

Is there xenophobic violence in every single country in the world? You bet there is even in Europe so again you make my point.

Stop being disingenuous.  You're questiom amounts to 'why don't they simply walk the other way?' A rhetorical question to support apprehension of economic refugees.

Its simply safer in Europe than it is in Africa. So you haven't demonstrated that Syrians are economic refugees.

[RoofGardener]

An interesting point Golden Duck. But then... most of the "refugees" aren't from Syria !

[+and-then]

On 7/6/2017 at 11:02 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

@ and then

I don't think it's Obama's fault that 20-something percent of Americans thought it's a good idea to let Russians run US. 

Hating 'liberals' so much that you'll vote for a guy who openly begged for Russian assistance in propaganda war, and received it, is not a matter of politics anymore. It's something psychiatrists and spiritual people should examine. 

Regarding my 'ideology', of course you couldn't decipher it. Because there's none. I'm ordinary woman and I'm trying not to be an *******. That's all. 

But that's slightly off topic. 

More on topic, there are people drowning in Mediterranean. People. Smelly, poor, weirdly clothed, mostly illiterate, still - people.  

Italy was coping with human waves admirably long. If they say they can't do it anymore, then it is so. They'll attempt closing ports and their neighbours will seal borders. It means a lot of exceptions at first, but a lot more corpses very soon. 

It's a good news to some, judging by this thread. That's the reason why I post here. I can't bear anymore all the disgusting hypocrisy and plain psychopathy plastered everywhere, without any shame or common sense. These are people in those boats. A sane human being cannot unsee that fact. 

So the boats aren't owned by traffickers that charge thousands per person?  And the majority of these people are war refugees?  No large numbers of purely economic migrants?  If you have evidence of your claims about Russia "running" my country could you please post it?  Helen when you say you are not ideologically motivated I simply don't believe you.  But that's okay because frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about what one more unbalanced Liberal hack thinks of me or my country.  Toodles.

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Its simply safer in Europe than it is in Africa

Not for much longer, if the waves of immigrants keep coming.  Look at the crime statistics for Germany and Sweden after large numbers of economic migrants landed.  I'm shamed FOR the so-called men in those countries that won't even defend their womenfolk.  

[Helen of Annoy]

31 minutes ago, and then said:

So the boats aren't owned by traffickers that charge thousands per person?  And the majority of these people are war refugees?  No large numbers of purely economic migrants?  If you have evidence of your claims about Russia "running" my country could you please post it?  Helen when you say you are not ideologically motivated I simply don't believe you.  But that's okay because frankly, I couldn't possibly care less about what one more unbalanced Liberal hack thinks of me or my country.  Toodles.

Wiggle, wiggle... I told you that's futile. But if you insist...  

No 'liberal' (I prefer 'sane person') questions the traffickers part. In my part of Europe, when caught, the traffickers are brought to justice. It would be nice if that could be done in Turkey too, for example, not to mention Libya, but for that bright future to happen a lot has to change first. 

I'll repeat: why is dying from hunger or disease (otherwise preventable) less dangerous than dying in a war?

45's behaviour at G20 is the newest proof. But you'll see the evidence too, don't you worry.

Distrust is mutual. Only your distrust against me is childish, since you chose not to trust someone you had to label and the closest label is not close enough to your extremist sect. While I distrust you from the moment you sided with Russia, against NATO and Europe, and I will thus never, ever again trust you. 

This is just one of the consequences of your Ersatzführer's attempt to ignore the reality.     

Edited July 8, 2017 by Helen of Annoy

[Setton]

10 hours ago, keithisco said:

You are really poor at this debating thing. You cherry-pick an isolated terrorist attack in Kenya and extrapolate it to mean that the whole of Kenya is in the grip of terror gangs. By your logic then the terror attacks in the UK means that it is also in the thrall of terrorism so you are making my point for me. Why would you agree to have these migrants come to such a "cesspit" of turmoil? There is no clarity in your thinking.

Is there xenophobic violence in every single country in the world? You bet there is even in Europe so again you make my point.

Have you been to Kenya? While it's nothing like Libya, it's certainly not a a safe place. Al-shabaab might be based in Somalia but they cross the border constantly. I was there a few years ago and the travel advice was against all but essential for most of the north and east. Even the rest it was recommended you only travel in convoy. 

[keithisco]

6 hours ago, Setton said:

Have you been to Kenya? While it's nothing like Libya, it's certainly not a a safe place. Al-shabaab might be based in Somalia but they cross the border constantly. I was there a few years ago and the travel advice was against all but essential for most of the north and east. Even the rest it was recommended you only travel in convoy. 

Yes, I have been there recently (aug 2016) visiting friends in Nairobi. I checked the Foreign Office travel advisories and have just checked them now. The advisory is the same and no mention of  recommending "travel in convoy".

They DO "advise against all but essential travel" within 15Kms of the Somali border 

Current FO Kenya advice advice below :

 

Quote

 

Summary

Still current at:

8 July 2017

Updated:

5 July 2017

Latest update:

Summary – a curfew is in place in Mandera County for the hours 6:30pm to 6:30am; Terrorism section – on 5 July 2017 a police station in Pandanguo, Lamu County was attacked by an armed group

 

 

[keithisco]

...whilst the countries I have suggested they go to (there are many more "Safe" countries in Africa) the fact that these people decide to go to a real cesspit of danger like Libya to get to europe defies belief. See below for todays Foreign Office warnings about travel in Libya

 

 

[Helen of Annoy]

10 minutes ago, keithisco said:

...whilst the countries I have suggested they go to (there are many more "Safe" countries in Africa) the fact that these people decide to go to a real cesspit of danger like Libya to get to europe defies belief. See below for todays Foreign Office warnings about travel in Libya

 

 

As I said before, I'm quite certain they wouldn't do that out of petty reasons. 

They give all they have, risk their lives, know they will face all sorts of problems even if they arrive alive and you still think they do that so they can have an easy life? What's easy in migrant or refugee life? 

Easier than what they currently have, in the sense here I'll certainly die, there I maybe won't, but easy it is not.

We discriminate, despise, write and read fairytales of epic luxury they're showered with, hold them collectively guilty of each crime any Muslim or non-European ever did... that's not my idea of an easy life. 

 

[keithisco]

17 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

As I said before, I'm quite certain they wouldn't do that out of petty reasons. 

They give all they have, risk their lives, know they will face all sorts of problems even if they arrive alive and you still think they do that so they can have an easy life? What's easy in migrant or refugee life? 

Easier than what they currently have, in the sense here I'll certainly die, there I maybe won't, but easy it is not.

We discriminate, despise, write and read fairytales of epic luxury they're showered with, hold them collectively guilty of each crime any Muslim or non-European ever did... that's not my idea of an easy life. 

 

Comparatively speaking they are handed "epic luxury". But, again, my point is being made for me-it is easier, less dangerous, and more in keeping with their cultural heritage to go to a neighboring country. They send off 1 family member in the certain knowledge that all family members will be sent for and allowed entry to the EU... we are not just importing 1 million economic migrants, we are importing maybe 5 times that number (possibly more). The economic migrants played no part in the relative success of Europe, nor do they share a common bond and common heritage with europe...this leads me to the conclusion that economics is the real driver here.

I thing I did come across the other day-a Spanish Coastguard vessel picked up hundreds of migrants from what can only be characterised as a pre-arranged pick-up point in the Med and delivered them to Salerno!! Why were they not transferred to Spain??

[+and-then]

9 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

While I distrust you from the moment you sided with Russia, against NATO and Europe,

Trust, don't trust, ignore, whatever.  Migrants that have thousands to spend on transport to Europe are not dying of hunger or anything else.  You seem to prefer that people believe you and not their own eyes and ears.  Hint:  we get real-time information here as well.  We can SEE the images of crowds of 80% or more young men with smiles on their faces and quite fit, to look at them. And apparently, they're quite horny as well.  I would have thought that with the background you have, you'd understand the concept of scarcity and excessive demands on resources but apparently, you didn't get that memo during the years of war you endured.  As to my "extremist sect", the Christ said that love was the most important thing and helping one's neighbor was a critical part of that but his word also says that a man who will not work, he will not eat.  How many of those migrants have any chance of finding employment?  How many are even trying?

 I guess we shouldn't be surprised that a continent that has made social welfare more important than defense, should eventually succumb to the reality of finite resources and infinite demands.  NATO absent U.S. participation isn't even a hollow shell.  When I saw the leaders in Europe openly mocking the president of the U.S., I decided it's time they paid their own way.  And they will.  Europe will have its own military in the form of some German-French union.  We'll have to wait a while to see how that works out for you.  History says the odds aren't good.

 Putin is dangerous to the world because he was given 8 years to run free in Europe with no real consequences.  He was given the leadership position in the M.E. as well.  Just GIVEN something the had been earned by MUCH better "men" than himself.  You hate and fear Russia?  Why didn't I see any grumbling against Obama while he gave Putin the world stage so that he could do more important things like improving his golf game?  Not Liberal?  How about self-deluded?  In what way did I side with Russia over Europe and NATO?  I don't deny I might have indicated some preference in a specific situation but I don't recall ever saying I thought more of Russia than Europe or NATO. FTR, I don't support Russia over Europe or anyone else.  They are a brutal, opportunistic country and would crush and dominate the globe if they could.  Right NOW, however, they are lying flat on their backs economically.  The sanctions don't hurt Rooty Poot or his oligarch buddies but they sure bite the common people.  Good enough for a bunch of people who can be so easily stirred to hate the "other".  Maybe, if we survive the coming storms, the youth in Russia will be able to fight for a chance to become part of the world, rather than hating it like their parents seem to do.  

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

Comparatively speaking they are handed "epic luxury". But, again, my point is being made for me-it is easier, less dangerous, and more in keeping with their cultural heritage to go to a neighboring country. They send off 1 family member in the certain knowledge that all family members will be sent for and allowed entry to the EU... we are not just importing 1 million economic migrants, we are importing maybe 5 times that number (possibly more). The economic migrants played no part in the relative success of Europe, nor do they share a common bond and common heritage with europe...this leads me to the conclusion that economics is the real driver here.

Comparatively - yes, absolutely, that's what I'm telling you.

And on behalf of all Polish plumbers in the UK, I'm offended (kidding) with your claim that economic migrants play no part... and don't you tell me it's different than it is with the boat people, because I know the same arguments are used against both.   

Statistic and maps are easy to be shaped into an excuse (seriously). Personal stories, now, that's where there's no universal answers. (Except don't be an *******, of course. Not you personally, I meant that universally.)

 

Quote

I thing I did come across the other day-a Spanish Coastguard vessel picked up hundreds of migrants from what can only be characterised as a pre-arranged pick-up point in the Med and delivered them to Salerno!! Why were they not transferred to Spain??

I think their coast guards have every right to ignore our curiosity and work the way they think it's best. 

 

 

 

edit: By the way, will someone tell the Ruski to stop wasting his keyboard on me? I'm not reading his walls of unconvincing wailing. Unless he says something radical like 'learn Russian' again, in that case, please do let me know so I can get myself banned and not be sorry at all.  

Edited July 8, 2017 by Helen of Annoy

[+and-then]

22 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Comparatively - yes, absolutely, that's what I'm telling you.

And on behalf of all Polish plumbers in the UK, I'm offended (kidding) with your claim that economic migrants play no part... and don't you tell me it's different than it is with the boat people, because I know the same arguments are used against both.   

Statistic and maps are easy to be shaped into an excuse (seriously). Personal stories, now, that's where there's no universal answers. (Except don't be an *******, of course. Not you personally, I meant that universally.)

 

I think their coast guards have every right to ignore our curiosity and work the way they think it's best. 

 

 

 

edit: By the way, will someone tell the Ruski to stop wasting his keyboard on me? I'm not reading his walls of unconvincing wailing. Unless he says something radical like 'learn Russian' again, in that case, please do let me know so I can get myself banned and not be sorry at all.  

Thass okay, aunty, OTHERS will, and that's my intention.  

[keithisco]

49 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Comparatively - yes, absolutely, that's what I'm telling you.

And on behalf of all Polish plumbers in the UK, I'm offended (kidding) with your claim that economic migrants play no part... and don't you tell me it's different than it is with the boat people, because I know the same arguments are used against both.   

Statistic and maps are easy to be shaped into an excuse (seriously). Personal stories, now, that's where there's no universal answers. (Except don't be an *******, of course. Not you personally, I meant that universally.)

I think their coast guards have every right to ignore our curiosity and work the way they think it's best. 

 

Yes, it is very different. The Poles and the Brits share a common heritage, The Poles (after the British) supplied the largest contingent of Fighter Pilots to the UK in the 2nd World War This shared belief in standing up for your own culture and belief in democratic principles is strongly grounded in history. So, yes it is very different. The Poles were instrumental in fighting back against Hitler and the Nazi's and I have nothing but respect for them. I have said this many times on this forum.

I believe that Maritime Law considers a Spanish Coastguard vessel as sovereign territory which means that the Dublin Convention should apply. "Refugees must claim asylum in the first safe country that they enter" so the Spanish Coastguard, being an arm of the Spanish Navy, should have returned to a Spanish Port.

Another consideration is that some countries, Greece, Italy and Spain have huge youth unemployment amongst their own citizens, what are you meant to do with 100,000's of newly arrived young men??  It will ruin their economies, and it is playing out now.

[Rlyeh]

On ‎5‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 0:42 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

Ah, so... I was slightly disgusted with what I thought is recent white supremacy epidemic. Now I realize it's white inferiority epidemic.

You guys, with your videos made for spamming to the literally illiterate, with your panic cranked to the point of hysteria, are actually advertising how ridiculously insecure you are: about yourself, your nations, race, culture, your you name-it... but, if everything yours is so weak you expect it to collapse if only someone not pasty enough leans against it, why preserving it at all?

(I'm asking you why, my opinion and confidence are much, much different than yours.)   

Not nearly as disgusting as bleeding hearts who'd happily drag western society back to the dark ages under the guise of "compassion".

Lets invite a large amount of immigrants from cultures where women are second class citizens and apostasy is a crime, into a culture, that itself spent the past couple or so centuries ridding these same tyrannical practices. What a genius idea, nothing could possibly go wrong there. Well done.

[FLOMBIE]

1 minute ago, Rlyeh said:

Not nearly as disgusting as bleeding hearts who'd happily drag western society back to the dark ages under the guise of "compassion".

Lets invite a large amount of immigrants from cultures where women are second class citizens and apostasy is a crime, into a culture, that itself spent the past couple or so centuries ridding these same tyrannical practices. What a genius idea, nothing could possibly go wrong there. Well done.

And you think that we will move back to such a legislation?

[Helen of Annoy]

49 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Yes, it is very different. The Poles and the Brits share a common heritage, The Poles (after the British) supplied the largest contingent of Fighter Pilots to the UK in the 2nd World War This shared belief in standing up for your own culture and belief in democratic principles is strongly grounded in history. So, yes it is very different. The Poles were instrumental in fighting back against Hitler and the Nazi's and I have nothing but respect for them. I have said this many times on this forum.

Well, many of your countrymen don't exactly care.

But I seriously think we should finish that WWII already. I'll contribute to that by stopping right here and right now.  

 

49 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I believe that Maritime Law considers a Spanish Coastguard vessel as sovereign territory which means that the Dublin Convention should apply. "Refugees must claim asylum in the first safe country that they enter" so the Spanish Coastguard, being an arm of the Spanish Navy, should have returned to a Spanish Port.

Another consideration is that some countries, Greece, Italy and Spain have huge youth unemployment amongst their own citizens, what are you meant to do with 100,000's of newly arrived young men??  It will ruin their economies, and it is playing out now.

Well, it certainly will be interesting to read all the interpretations of Maritime Law regarding Spain and Gibraltar and what do I know why again it was so essential to leave EU... 

 

Imagine someone contracts scabies on top of plague. What killed them? 

[Helen of Annoy]

8 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Not nearly as disgusting as bleeding hearts who'd happily drag western society back to the dark ages under the guise of "compassion".

Lets invite a large amount of immigrants from cultures where women are second class citizens and apostasy is a crime, into a culture, that itself spent the past couple or so centuries ridding these same tyrannical practices. What a genius idea, nothing could possibly go wrong there. Well done.

Not just western, any society is literally worthless without compassion. It's exactly the lack of compassion that makes the horrors of theocracies possible.  

 

[Rlyeh]

1 minute ago, FLOMBIE said:

And you think that we will move back to such a legislation?

Perhaps you're already half way there?

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/leaders/german-mayor-says-10yearolds-shouldnt-provoke-sex-attacks-by-migrants/news-story/e99bdc0d6e57f37c42eb4f0340fd1f49