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Is there a center of the universe?


Will Due

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56 minutes ago, Harte said:

The rate doesn't, but the amount does.

And despite what was in an earlier post, there is no space for the universe to expand into, because it is space itself that is expanding.

Harte

Are you saying the expansion rate is decreasing or the same over time?  

If not then simplybill is left pondering the truth, i.e. the rate is increasing.

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4 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I feel we have been through that once or twice before. :(

I get a tired feeling of deja vu, every time you post that comment. :sleepy:

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31 minutes ago, taniwha said:

Are you saying the expansion rate is decreasing or the same over time?  

If not then simplybill is left pondering the truth, i.e. the rate is increasing.

Neither. I said that the amount of expansion increases when you look at it over larger and larger distances, but that the rate of expansion does not depend on the distance over which you measure it.

Harte

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This might not analogous to expanding space....but I like to picture expanding space as adding water instead of space...

things like atoms ,planetary systems ,binary stars systems and galaxies ,which are bound together by local forces would make it seem that the space within is not expanding....(or that water/space wasn't expanding/being added within the system)

how would space slow or even stop expansion within a system,  while the adjoining space and beyond picks up speed ?

If that is reeeeally true space would be expanding at differing rates all over the place, dependent on how much mass was nearby?

well, maybe that IS true....because ,no matter how much water/space is added to the entire universe ....the volume (amount of space/ water within a bound system)  (a defined area) would not increase?

there, I've managed to confuse myself out of my entire idea...maybe it was all wet to begin with? lol

 

 

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The space expands, but the objects in the space do not.

Harte

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9 minutes ago, Harte said:

Neither. I said that the amount of expansion increases when you look at it over larger and larger distances, but that the rate of expansion does not depend on the distance over which you measure it.

Harte

I see. It is a mind bender. So the rate at which the universe expands increases at a constant rate?  Why would the universe appear to be expanding faster the further into the past we look?

Isn't that an anomaly of sorts.  Shouldn't a younger more distant universe appear slower due to the time delay of light speed?

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4 hours ago, Harte said:

The rate doesn't, but the amount does.

And despite what was in an earlier post, there is no space for the universe to expand into, because it is space itself that is expanding.

Harte

 If the space inside our universe is expanding into something. That "something" could be a literal nothing, I don't know, I haven't  been outside the universe lately, so I couldn't tell ya.

But if it is a literal nothing, wouldn't that "nothing" be a form of empty space that we are unable to comprehend.

Edited by Ogbin
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No. It's even more "nothing" than that.

It's space itself that's expanding. If space was expanding into empty space, that wouldn't be expanding, since space would already be there.

Harte

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9 hours ago, taniwha said:

I see. It is a mind bender. So the rate at which the universe expands increases at a constant rate?  Why would the universe appear to be expanding faster the further into the past we look?

Isn't that an anomaly of sorts.  Shouldn't a younger more distant universe appear slower due to the time delay of light speed?

Not faster, just more.

Look at it this way, assume distance expands at the rate of 1 inch per year for every foot you look at (a ridiculously higher amount that the actual expansion rate, but it's numbers that are easy to comprehend.)

After one year, two objects that were 12 inches apart at first are then13 inches apart.

If the two objects were 120 inches apart to begin with, they would be 130 inches apart after a year.

If you look at one foot, the expansion is one inch per year. If you look at 10 feet, the expansion is 10 inches per year.

Harte

 

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11 hours ago, Harte said:

The space expands, but the objects in the space do not.

Harte

Thanks Harte,.....I guess that's one of the puzzles that confuses me....Since OBJECTS ,molecules, and atoms are actually almost entirely made up of Space, albeit energy filled Space.      .         .         .            .               .    ?

         I'm starting to wonder if Everything....expansion,space,time,objects are all the result of the movement of energy.

which makes me wonder WHAT makes energy Move. .           .                 

Edited by lightly
Stupidity?
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5 hours ago, Harte said:

No. It's even more "nothing" than that.

It's space itself that's expanding. If space was expanding into empty space, that wouldn't be expanding, since space would already be there.

Harte

I agree. I'm not saying space is expanding into its self... I'm saying that whatever is on the outside of the barrier of the universe, the universe is expanding into it. And if that "Whatever" is more "nothing" than nothing, our universe is still expanding into it. As the universe expands is it creating space, or is stealing it?  

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It's definitely creating space. That is, if there is something other than pure nothing to be expanded into, that nothing is not space like ours, not even a higher-dimensional space.

This is because if it were to be 7-d space (for instance,) it would contain the 4-d space that is our space time, plus 3 more dimensions.

We could possibly be infringing on another reality that has the same dimension count as our reality, but where ours is 11-D (with 3 visible spatial dimensions and one perceptible time dimension along with another imperceptible time dimension and 5 imperceptible spatial dimensions curled up on themselves,) theirs could (possibly?) have the other time dimension perceptible and three of the other physical dimensions perceptible.

In that case, the increasing dimensions that are our expansion would be expanding into dimensions that the other reality cannot perceive.

According to the M-theory version of String theory, anyway.

It's interesting to note that that other reality might be expanding into ours as well, in the same way. There could never be any way to tell.

Harte

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13 hours ago, Harte said:

Not faster, just more.

Look at it this way, assume distance expands at the rate of 1 inch per year for every foot you look at (a ridiculously higher amount that the actual expansion rate, but it's numbers that are easy to comprehend.)

After one year, two objects that were 12 inches apart at first are then13 inches apart.

If the two objects were 120 inches apart to begin with, they would be 130 inches apart after a year.

If you look at one foot, the expansion is one inch per year. If you look at 10 feet, the expansion is 10 inches per year.

Harte

 

Bizarre. I'm going to get back to you on that one it still is difficult for me to fathom.  Is this this due to the time dimensions you mention? (Not my difficulty in fathoming but the odd behaviour of expansion and perceptions)

Just interested to know what the imperceptible time dimension is that you refer too and how it was perceived to begin with?  How does it connect to or influence reality, if of course that time dimension is real.  I mean how would anyone know?

I have a feeling you aren't just referring to the future.

If it is a mathematical model please do your best to explain it using a thought experiment or other analogies. I quite like the way you do that.

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28 minutes ago, taniwha said:

Bizarre. I'm going to get back to you on that one it still is difficult for me to fathom.  Is this this due to the time dimensions you mention? (Not my difficulty in fathoming but the odd behaviour of expansion and perceptions)

Just interested to know what the imperceptible time dimension is that you refer too and how it was perceived to begin with?  How does it connect to or influence reality, if of course that time dimension is real.  I mean how would anyone know?

I have a feeling you aren't just referring to the future.

If it is a mathematical model please do your best to explain it using a thought experiment or other analogies. I quite like the way you do that.

The missing dimensions can't be perceived. They come out of the mathematics of string theory, shown by Ed Whitten when he united the various versions under one theory.

The part about the other dimensions being curled in on themselves is just a postulated explanation. In other words, one model.

But string theory hasn't been shown to be valid, and it might not even be capable of being falsified, which would invalidate it as a scientific theory.

It simply works, so a lot of physicists go with it.

Harte

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M-theory, which is an advancement of sorts on string theory, allows for two time dimensions. The main work on this implies a time dimension for velocity and a time dimension for position.

But nobody knows if that's right - yet. That's why I used the word "possibly" in the post about this.

If it is, it could provide another way to travel in time - actually the same way of traveling into the past - curved time-like loops (google that phrase for more on this form of time travel.)

Just more ways of having a curved time-like loop.

If there is another time dimension and it's NOT associated with position, it's anybody's guess what the hell it means.

Harte

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10 minutes ago, Harte said:

Just more ways of having a curved time-like loop.

So . . . . what's at the center of that "curved time-like loop?"

 

 

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It seems this topic has slipped into nothingness? I want to hear more!  The universe is such a mystery still !

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I (and others) explained it.

Some accepted the explanation, others think they know more about it than Cosmologists do.

What further progress can be made that's on-topic?

Harte

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Heart. That's what's at the center of the Universe.

What else?

 

 

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On October 10, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Harte said:

I (and others) explained it.

Some accepted the explanation, others think they know more about it than Cosmologists do.

What further progress can be made that's on-topic?

Harte

Thanks for your participation, and explanations, Harte.  Wouldn't  you agree though that there are still a lot of unknowns ?

i know I have more unknowns than many ,I guess that's what keeps me so fascinated and  chronically astonished !

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I know many of you are inclined to dismiss out of hand anything the Urantia Book says, but nonetheless, there are more than a few things it says that are simply out of this world and astonishingly beautiful and validating. 

One of those things is what it says about what's at the Center of the Universe and I'd like to share that with you.

 

Quote
 
PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. And again it should be reiterated that spirit things and spiritual beings are real.

 

Paradise serves many purposes in the administration of the universal realms, but to creature beings it exists primarily as the dwelling place of Deity. The personal presence of the Universal Father is resident at the very center of the upper surface of this well-nigh circular, but not spherical, abode of the Deities. This Paradise presence of the Universal Father is immediately surrounded by the personal presence of the Eternal Son, while they are both invested by the unspeakable glory of the Infinite Spirit.

 

God dwells, has dwelt, and everlastingly will dwell in this same central and eternal abode. We have always found him there and always will. The Universal Father is cosmically focalized, spiritually personalized, and geographically resident at this center of the universe of universes.
 

 

If perchance you've taken the time to ponder what you've just read, you might take a few more moments to read a couple more things.

 

Quote

 

How unreasonable that you should not worship God because the limitations of human nature and the handicaps of your material creation make it impossible for you to see him. Between you and God there is a tremendous distance (physical space) to be traversed. There likewise exists a great gulf of spiritual differential which must be bridged; but notwithstanding all that physically and spiritually separates you from the Paradise personal presence of God, stop and ponder the solemn fact that God lives within you; he has in his own way already bridged the gulf. He has sent of himself, his spirit, to live in you and to toil with you as you pursue your eternal universe career.

 

 

And lastly . . .

 

Quote

 

Can you really realize the true significance of the Adjuster's indwelling? Do you really fathom what it means to have an absolute fragment of the absolute and infinite Deity, the Universal Father, indwelling and fusing with your finite mortal natures? When mortal man fuses with an actual fragment of the existential Cause of the total cosmos, no limit can ever be placed upon the destiny of such an unprecedented and unimaginable partnership. In eternity, man will be discovering not only the infinity of the objective Deity but also the unending potentiality of the subjective fragment of this same God. Always will the Adjuster be revealing to the mortal personality the wonder of God, and never can this supernal revelation come to an end, for the Adjuster is of God and as God to mortal man.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, lightly said:

Thanks for your participation, and explanations, Harte.  Wouldn't  you agree though that there are still a lot of unknowns ?

i know I have more unknowns than many ,I guess that's what keeps me so fascinated and  chronically astonished !

Absolutely. In fact the whole thing is technically unknown.

What we theorize comes from the mathematics of General Relativity and the few observations that can be made about it.

The Big Bang doesn't actually fully explain the origin of the universe. At least, not the current form of the theory.

There's the question about inflation - why did it stop (quantum physics predicts it wouldn't,) not to mention the question of dark matter and dark energy, and a million other questions.

All I've tried to explain here is the current thinking on it. There's no question that the universe is expanding though. And no question that it's NOT expanding into something.

Harte

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14 minutes ago, Harte said:

 

All I've tried to explain here is the current thinking on it. There's no question that the universe is expanding though. And no question that it's NOT expanding into something.

Harte

What's expanding Harte, is our understanding of the universe in other ways besides only its material considerations. We have been prompted by this universe we live in and have been provided with information to be understood, that on top of the material realities of the universe sits the reality of what is at the center of the universe that is its controlling source. 

 

See my post #272 above. Here's the link.

 

 

 

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The Urantia book is BS. I don't really care what's written in it.

Harte

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