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Dark_Grey

Border Wall Funds Approved

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RavenHawk

This is definitely a matter of perspective.  I think we can say that as a component of the overall defense strategy the Maginot Line was not successful as France fell.  Because the line could not be defeated directly as designed, required a new strategy to defeat it.  The defenses were not defeated but it was surrendered as the defenders lost their will.

 

The Romans were better armed and trained but they were also out numbered.  A wall is a force equalizer if used correctly.  Caesar used it very effectively to keep his rear protected while he achieved his goal.  Caesar outgeneraled Vercingetorix and basically Vercingetorix blinked first.  Perhaps one more combined attack by the Gauls and the Romans would have collapsed but they lost the will after three days.

 

Where the French failed to anticipate what the Germans would do, China was ahead of the game.  They knew the ends of the Great Wall were the weak points.  By concentrating their defenses at a few points blocks that end-run tactic.  What eventually failed was the public will.

 

But the important lesson to take away from all this is that a wall is very effective just as long as you have vigorous defenses not just behind it but all around it.  Manpower augments the wall.  The wall doesn’t replace manpower.  Above all, it is the will that determines outcome.  The people must understand what they are fighting for even though the cause started many generations before.  Too often than not, that cause is taken for granted in the succeeding generations.  It is usually left up to academia to teach these lessons to the later generations.  Given that, I really don’t think that the US has learned anything.  But there will always be a few that will willingly sacrifice all for those that haven’t learned.

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RavenHawk
44 minutes ago, Kurzweil said:

I hope they put windows in the wall. 

They should make it the world’s longest shopping mall.  Call it the Mall of the Wall.  With pardon from Minneapolis, MN and Wall, SD.

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Kurzweil
6 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

They should make it the world’s longest shopping mall.  Call it the Mall of the Wall.  With pardon from Minneapolis, MN and Wall, SD.

 

Restaurants so you can eat and look into Mexico and close your blinds when people come looking into the window to watch you eat.

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aztek
Just now, RavenHawk said:

They should make it the world’s longest shopping mall.  Call it the Mall of the Wall.  With pardon from Minneapolis, MN and Wall, SD.

 

why not, make it a tax free zone, have vendors from both sides sell their things. 

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Hammerclaw

The goal isn't to repulse an assault, but to slow illegal immigration down to a manageable trickle. A physical barrier is just one of several options, a combination of which will, no doubt, be the end result.

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AnchorSteam
11 hours ago, Bama13 said:

Why should we hold American citizens responsible? It isn't their job to make sure the people in this country are here legally. That would be the Federal Governments job. So why punish business owners because the government isn't doing their job?

Because to hire somebody you have to verify their SSN and their references. If those check out, fine, but keep it on record.

An illegal that has an SSN that passes the Govt checks should get the employer off the hook.

But you know that most of them are looking the other way, and paying them under the table at a rate that is far lower than Americans work for. THOSE are the guys that need to be nailed for exploitation.  Once they are taken care of, the bulk of the illegals will stop coming. 

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Bama13
11 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Because to hire somebody you have to verify their SSN and their references. If those check out, fine, but keep it on record.

An illegal that has an SSN that passes the Govt checks should get the employer off the hook.

But you know that most of them are looking the other way, and paying them under the table at a rate that is far lower than Americans work for. THOSE are the guys that need to be nailed for exploitation.  Once they are taken care of, the bulk of the illegals will stop coming. 

So you think it should be up to business owners to secure our borders? I think the Constitution says that is the Federal Governments job. 

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aztek
Just now, AnchorSteam said:

Because to hire somebody you have to verify their SSN and their references. If those check out, fine, but keep it on record.

 

not always, for a big company yes, but a small company, or a ordinary john doe, who needs help cleaning up his yard, or anything else short term, does not have to check anything.  he just needs to record the name of the guys, and amount paid, if they want use it as tax deduction.  even if they  paid cash. another thing is if you abuse it, you'll get audited, but that is a different topic.

actually even for big company SS is not required, if a person has tax id, which is available to anyone regardless of status.

i can open up temp agency, hire illegals who have tax id, when i send them to a job site, he is not checked there, they are subcontractors at that point,  it is on me to do all the checking, . plenty of temp agencies in nyc do exactly that, and it's legal.

Edited by aztek

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AnchorSteam
3 hours ago, Bama13 said:

So you think it should be up to business owners to secure our borders? I think the Constitution says that is the Federal Governments job. 

I'm saying what I said; that Businesses should have to follow the Law, something that too many people have been dodging for far too long.

Secure the borders? No, discourage criminal activity by ceasing to engage in and encourage illegal activity. 

Corrupt nations Decline and Fall.

Obviously, right?

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aztek
Just now, AnchorSteam said:

I'm saying what I said; that Businesses should have to follow the Law, something that too many people have been dodging for far too long.

 

the law does not require me to be an immigration officer, i only have to follow the tax law, even cops get in trouble for asking immigration status. 

Edited by aztek

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AnchorSteam
10 minutes ago, aztek said:

the law does not require me to be an immigration officer, i only have to follow the tax law, even cops get in trouble for asking immigration status. 

Then you are doing the minimum ... wait a minute!  Where are Cops getting in trouble for asking about that?

Sanctuary Cities are illegally supporting illegals, because they prey on sympathy for the sake of ideology, and most especially for the profits of the big-shots that give them all that campaign money

 

Look, if you don't want to be part of the solution, so be it, but why go out of your way to be part of the problem? 

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Michelle

Let's put this puppy to bed.

When You Can Ask 

The Immigration Reform and Control Act requires all employees to provide proof to employers that they can legally work in the U.S. Employers are required to verify the eligibility status of all employees, even those they know are U.S. citizens. It is against the law to knowingly hire someone who is not authorized to work in the United States. 

Even so, the Immigration Reform and Control Act generally forbids you from asking a person to prove his or her citizenship during a job interview or at any time before you offer employment.

Verifying a person’s eligibility is something you do only after you’ve hired the candidate. You can, however, inform the candidate that you plan on verifying the employment status of any potential new hire. In fact, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission recommends adding the following statement to your employment applications to ensure compliance:

“In compliance with federal law, all persons hired will be required to verify identity and eligibility to work in the United States and to complete the required employment eligibility verification document form upon hire.” 

https://quickbooks.intuit.com/r/hiring-and-recruiting/when-can-you-ask-a-worker-about-citizenship-status/

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aztek
Just now, AnchorSteam said:

Then you are doing the minimum ... wait a minute!  Where are Cops getting in trouble for asking about that?

Sanctuary Cities are illegally supporting illegals, because they prey on sympathy for the sake of ideology, and most especially for the profits of the big-shots that give them all that campaign money

 

Look, if you don't want to be part of the solution, so be it, but why go out of your way to be part of the problem? 

i'm doing what laws asks me to do.  just because i do not play immigration police does not make me part of the problem, people that do things they are not supposed to are.

Transit cop fired after asking for commuter’s immigration status

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Quaentum
On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 1:17 PM, Bama13 said:

Do liberals not care that illegal immigrants work for a non-living wage? That they are taken advantage of?

Just imagine, no welfare. Watch Americans take those jobs.

It depends on what you consider a non-living wage.  Let's take for example an undocumented worker from Mexico.  Let's say he earns $2.00 an hour for his labor here in the U.S.  Let us also say he is lucky and only works 40 hours a week.  That would be $80 per week.  Being undocumented he keeps it all.    Now you want to ship him back to Mexico because he's undocumented and let's say he gets a similar job there.  Last year (2016) in Mexico, they raised the minimum wage to $3.45 PER DAY.    So in Mexico for that same 40 hours he would make $17.25.  Mexico tax I believe is about 35% so he is left with $11.21.  It will take him nearly 2 months to make the same amount he did in the U.S. in 1 week.  So while you believe he is taken advantage of and making a non-living wage, he is making many times more than he would in Mexico and supporting his family who remains in Mexico far better than if he were in Mexico.

 

So do you not care that you will cause him and his family greater hardship and will not help him in anyway if he is deported?

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Quaentum
On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:36 AM, Bama13 said:

Why should we hold American citizens responsible? It isn't their job to make sure the people in this country are here legally. That would be the Federal Governments job. So why punish business owners because the government isn't doing their job?

It would depend.  If they are paying undocumented workers a wage and do not withhold social security and other amounts, then they are violating federal laws and shouldn't they then be held accountable.

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aztek
Just now, Quaentum said:

It depends on what you consider a non-living wage.  Let's take for example an undocumented worker from Mexico.  Let's say he earns $2.00 an hour for his labor here in the U.S. 

you wont find an illegal who will work for less than 10 these days. maybe 20 years ago someone worked for $2, but not anymore,  

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Quaentum
1 minute ago, aztek said:

you wont find an illegal who will work for less than 10 these days. maybe 20 years ago someone worked for $2, but not anymore,  

Still it pointed up that to the illegal it is far from a non-living wage.

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aztek
Just now, Quaentum said:

Still it pointed up that to the illegal it is far from a non-living wage.

, that i agree.  also worth mentioning, their living expenses are not as high either, they only get to pay for part or a corner of the room. i've seen houses divided for illegals, 10-15 beds in 1-2 bdrm house\appt, sometimes with Sheetrock walls, sometimes just  curtains,  seen those houses burn and trap people inside those mazes, but shady landlords like it, they get paid cash, more than they could rent out an entire appt for, and illegals do not complain. 

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AnchorSteam
18 minutes ago, aztek said:

i'm doing what laws asks me to do.  just because i do not play immigration police does not make me part of the problem, people that do things they are not supposed to are.

I'm not asking that, I'm talking about the law, and changing it to prevent things like that wicked article showed. 

 

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aztek
Just now, AnchorSteam said:

I'm not asking that, I'm talking about the law, and changing it to prevent things like that wicked article showed. 

 

i can't say i disagree with that. 

however from realistic pov, i do not see any law work to solve the issue at this point, we have states openly defy immigration laws, and harbor illegals. we have every single democrat on a crusade preventing anything  trump, or republicans try to do. whether reasonable or not. at this point there is much bigger problem, and it's neither illegals nor trump.

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AnchorSteam
13 minutes ago, Quaentum said:

So do you not care that you will cause him and his family greater hardship and will not help him in anyway if he is deported?

Should I have to care about all of the injustices in all of the 3rd world nations everywhere on Earth? Its a pretty big world out there, or is this just Mexico I have to care about, and accept a lower standard of life for on my part to make things nicer for them?

 

IMHO, what Mexico needs is a "big-R" Revolution, and they are evading that by sending all the able, vigorous, determined men north of the border so that they can make just enough money to appease them for a while.

The Mexican Government is more viciously corrupt than ever. They have ceded control of much of the coutryside to Drug Cartels, who enforced their rule with so much violence that they fill Mass Graves on a regular basis... don't you care about that? Mexico is ruled by pale-skinned and very European-looking aristocratic families who don't care about all that stuff, they are incredibly rich because they hoard all the oil-wealth for themselves (they are our 2nd largest supplier) and the Tourist money keeps them propped up when the oil price drops.

It is MEXICO that has the problem, not us.

And they need it fixed, instead of using our country as a safety-valve to divert the energies of the men who would be leading the revolution.

Here ends the rant, bye.

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Quaentum
2 hours ago, AnchorSteam said:

Should I have to care about all of the injustices in all of the 3rd world nations everywhere on Earth? Its a pretty big world out there, or is this just Mexico I have to care about, and accept a lower standard of life for on my part to make things nicer for them?

 

IMHO, what Mexico needs is a "big-R" Revolution, and they are evading that by sending all the able, vigorous, determined men north of the border so that they can make just enough money to appease them for a while.

The Mexican Government is more viciously corrupt than ever. They have ceded control of much of the coutryside to Drug Cartels, who enforced their rule with so much violence that they fill Mass Graves on a regular basis... don't you care about that? Mexico is ruled by pale-skinned and very European-looking aristocratic families who don't care about all that stuff, they are incredibly rich because they hoard all the oil-wealth for themselves (they are our 2nd largest supplier) and the Tourist money keeps them propped up when the oil price drops.

It is MEXICO that has the problem, not us.

And they need it fixed, instead of using our country as a safety-valve to divert the energies of the men who would be leading the revolution.

Here ends the rant, bye.

I was replying to BAMA13 about his comment about liberals and do they care about what he perceived was a non-living wage.  I showed it was a better wage than what he wopuld get back home so it was not, to the Mexican a non-living wage.

 

As for you.  You are not required to care about any people in other countries you don't want to.  Mexico was used as an example in my post not as a base upon which country a person should care about.

 

I will assume, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that you care what happens in the U.S.   If that is the case, consider this.  Those illegals spend the money they make and generate about 12 billion dollars in local and state taxes which includes sales tax here in the U.S.   Eliminate the illegals, you eliminate those tax revenues for municipalities, counties and states.  Will that have an impact on services provided by those governments?  Further, it will result in the loss of over 100 Billion dollars in sales.  Will that have an impact on the economy?  Also it is estimated that to find, catch, process and deport an illegal costs as much as $50,000 times 11,000,00+ illegals is about 858 Billion dollars added to the national debt.  Should we be worried about that?  Finally, since fruit, cotton and other crops would have to be picked by people that would at least get minimum wage, it will raise the prices of food, clothing, etc... Should we worry about that?

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Michelle
19 minutes ago, Quaentum said:

 

Finally, since fruit, cotton and other crops would have to be picked by people that would at least get minimum wage, it will raise the prices of food, clothing, etc... Should we worry about that?

No, I'm not so worried about that. It is the same justification slave owners used for fighting the Civil War. I'm more concerned about the women and children who are raped and abused, working for farmers who have no ethics. They are basically sold to their employers by coyotes with no hope of ever buying themselves out. Their "quarters" are often worse than what slaves endured so many years ago. Tents, no toilets and showering with a garden hose. They didn't have garden hoses back then and they were lucky if they had a creek nearby.

I don't think many people understand the conditions they are advocating. They've romanticized it all.

Edited by Michelle
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Gromdor
On 7/18/2017 at 9:08 AM, Bama13 said:

So you think it should be up to business owners to secure our borders? I think the Constitution says that is the Federal Governments job. 

You can build all the walls that you want, but if you keep leaving sugar on the floor- you're going to get ants.  

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Bama13
3 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

You can build all the walls that you want, but if you keep leaving sugar on the floor- you're going to get ants.  

If a potential employee shows up with a SS card and an ID what else should I, as a business owner, be required to do? Is it my responsibility to make sure they are valid? How much should I have to spend to verify their identity? If I decide that the person's paperwork looks suspicious and don't hire them am I looking at a discrimination lawsuit?

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