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seeder

Blood stains found on Turin Shroud

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seeder
Quote

 

Turin Shroud is stained with the blood of a torture victim, new research shows - supporting the belief that it DOES show the face of Jesus

    Experts claim there is blood on the Shroud which is not typical of healthy person
    They say it contains creatinine and ferritin, found in those who suffered trauma
    The findings contradict claims that the Shroud was painted by Medieval forgers
    The shroud is currently being displayed at St John the Baptist Cathedral in Turin


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4703018/Turin-Shroud-stained-blood-torture-victim.html#ixzz4n60UXxVZ


 

 


 

 

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GlitterRose

People don't want to let this go even though they can't get past the carbon dating that shows it was from the Middle Ages. It has long, long been debunked. 

I don't know why people need the shroud to bolster their faith. 

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GlitterRose
4 minutes ago, Lilly said:

There still exists controversy regarding the age of the shroud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

 

Only among people who wish for the shroud to be something it isn't. Science doesn't say things with 100% certainty. A lot of people want certainty. Scientists can say it with 95% certainty, and they have. 

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eight bits

The original article is open access:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0180487

PLoS ONE is a real journal, peer reviewed, decent impact factor, etc.

I'm not an expert on the shroud, but if it is a shroud, then I wouldn't expect it to have wrapped a healthy person.

Also, "bloodstains" is a bit of an exaggeration, as was the Daily Mail's more measured "stained with" phrase. The particles are too small to see.

If they're blood components, if they come from somebody who was wrapped up in the cloth, if the guy didn't look so European... Lot of if's - but isn't that the way with everything about the historical Jesus?

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OverSword

That's compelling. 

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Kenemet

I looked up a couple of thins:  Createnene is created when the kidneys are failing or in acute failure... just a data point and not anything else.

 

HOWEVER... a non-data point I noticed is that the proportions of the entire figure are wrong.  If you take a measure of the size of the head and use that to measure the body, most folks will be between 5 and 6 heads tall.  Like these guys.

Star_Trek_cast_and_Space_Shuttle_Enterpr

 

The shroud's proportions are closer to 7 heads and the arms are unusually long for a real human but in proportion with medieval sculpture.  Ditto the fingers.

 

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Nzo

Since we are talking about fiction has anyone found the broken pieces of the Elder Wand yet? I think I can get it to work again.

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papageorge1

I can see where this new finding would lend support to the shroud's authenticity as the burial shroud of Jesus. Even if a medieval artist used blood you wouldn't think he would take it from a person in physical trauma but it is possible. 

 

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UFOwatcher

I vote for "medieval forgery". It's 'possibly' a shroud of a dead person and no surprise it would have blood. What is a surprise is why has it only now been discovered?

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stereologist

I can see that new methods can reveal more details. If I were going to get a body to make a forgery I'd get some old cripple for my needs. Why bother with a healthy person when that is not needed.

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jaylemurph

The fact it has blood on it or that the blood shows evidence of torture isn't very compelling: I'm reasonably certain Medieval folk had blood and tortured each other.

--Jaylemurph

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EBE Hybrid

I read a book, which I think was called "Bloodline of the holy grail" that suggested that Jaques De Molay, the head of the Order of the Knights Templar had gotten on the wrong side of Philip the Fair of France. By all accounts the Knights Templar had set up an impressive banking system to finace Crusades, the King of France had borrowed from the bank and was now seriously in debt to the Templars. To wipe out the debt he cooked up blaphemy charges agaist de Molay and had him tortured in a bid to gain a confession. The book suggests the the image on the Turin Shroud is that of Jaques de Molay, who was eventually burnt at the stake by the French and the Order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the then Pope in 1307

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jarjarbinks

So, do you think that Jesus's ressurection was true and he would be back by cloning ?

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DieChecker
6 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

People don't want to let this go even though they can't get past the carbon dating that shows it was from the Middle Ages. It has long, long been debunked. 

I don't know why people need the shroud to bolster their faith. 

The debunking has long been debunked.

Not to say that this is Jesus's burial cloth, but the C-14 dating was done on a sample to included later added fibers/cloth, later added coloring materials and other contaminants. Lots of other C-14 dating done in the 1980s has shown to be suspect of the same contamination, as techniques and protocols for cleaning the test subject were not as stringent then as today.

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, EBE Hybrid said:

I read a book, which I think was called "Bloodline of the holy grail" that suggested that Jaques De Molay, the head of the Order of the Knights Templar had gotten on the wrong side of Philip the Fair of France. By all accounts the Knights Templar had set up an impressive banking system to finace Crusades, the King of France had borrowed from the bank and was now seriously in debt to the Templars. To wipe out the debt he cooked up blaphemy charges agaist de Molay and had him tortured in a bid to gain a confession. The book suggests the the image on the Turin Shroud is that of Jaques de Molay, who was eventually burnt at the stake by the French and the Order of the Knights Templar was dissolved by the then Pope in 1307

I think that could be a real theory of where it came from. Seeing as it was not known before that time period. Either way, I think the Templars were involved in bringing it to Europe.

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Jarocal
4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I looked up a couple of thins:  Createnene is created when the kidneys are failing or in acute failure... just a data point and not anything else.

 

HOWEVER... a non-data point I noticed is that the proportions of the entire figure are wrong.  If you take a measure of the size of the head and use that to measure the body, most folks will be between 5 and 6 heads tall.  Like these guys.

Star_Trek_cast_and_Space_Shuttle_Enterpr

 

The shroud's proportions are closer to 7 heads and the arms are unusually long for a real human but in proportion with medieval sculpture.  Ditto the fingers.

 

Are the shrouds proportions completely out of the possible range for humans or just extraordinary? According to Christian beliefs the man was extraordinary...

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Jarocal
1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

The fact it has blood on it or that the blood shows evidence of torture isn't very compelling: I'm reasonably certain Medieval folk had blood and tortured each other.

--Jaylemurph

Medieval times were actually a time of extreme peace and harmony. It is the revisionist historians from the "renaissance" that attributed such a bloodthirsty barbaric association to the time period.

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DieChecker
29 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Are the shrouds proportions completely out of the possible range for humans or just extraordinary? According to Christian beliefs the man was extraordinary...

I found this....

http://medcaretips.com/human-body-proportions/

Quote

Interesting Facts About Body Proportions: [source:Wikipedia]

  • The average adult human figure is about 7 to 7.5 heads tall.
  • The idealized human figure is traditionally represented as being 8 heads tall:

Uhhh...... .So seems that 7 heads high is actually Average.

Take this guy as an example.

Untitled.jpg.3c4c22628d249538e8889b33382c4df5.jpg

The guy next to him is about a 1/2 head taller, so is probably just over 7 heads. Several of the others have smaller heads, but are similar in height.

EDIT: Note my measurements in cm will differ by screen size, but the ratio should hold.

Edited by DieChecker
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Jarocal
40 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I found this....

http://medcaretips.com/human-body-proportions/

Uhhh...... .So seems that 7 heads high is actually Average.

Take this guy as an example.

Untitled.jpg.3c4c22628d249538e8889b33382c4df5.jpg

The guy next to him is about a 1/2 head taller, so is probably just over 7 heads. Several of the others have smaller heads, but are similar in height.

EDIT: Note my measurements in cm will differ by screen size, but the ratio should hold.

The matriarchal culture that influenced earlier humanity set a clear precedent for the order of measurement.

In 2 dimensional objects it is length then width. With 3 dimensional objects it is length followed by width and finally height.

Is there any evidence on the shroud of Turin that indicates what our matriarchal ancestors would prioritize over being 7 heads high (proportionally).

Just wondering  (exactly how extraordinary this man may have been)...:P

Edited by Jarocal
How long is the shroud
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spud the mackem

The Shroud is closely guarded by the church who obviously would have records in their achives of its past history,whether or not it is genuine remains a mystery unles the church has an answer secretly locked away which they are not willing to divulge .

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seeder

The thing is the image on the shroud is flat....as if painted on...the hair is loose at the sides of the head....now, if you were wrapped in a shroud, the cloth would also push against your ears, side of face etc, so there should be MORE to see, but there isnt

_83713753_secondopia_alamy.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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seeder
30 minutes ago, seeder said:

The thing is the image on the shroud is flat....as if painted on...the hair is loose at the sides of the head....now, if you were wrapped in a shroud, the cloth would also push against your ears, side of face etc, so there should be MORE to see, but there isnt

_83713753_secondopia_alamy.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK let me add to this, so a cloth is wrapped around a persons head.....so why doesnt the image look like this

FZ59LJKHSRZJ0I3.MEDIUM.jpg?width=614

 

Now this image is from a prank on "how to make a head in a jar"  because once that image is curled it gives a 3 dimensional head!   As all heads are....and the jar could represent a shroud wrapped around a head

 

F17DJTXHSRZJ0IQ.MEDIUM.gif

 

http://www.instructables.com/id/head-in-a-jar-prank/

 

 

Edited by seeder
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highdesert50

Interesting how science allows us to posit a hypothesis, establish a methodology to test the hypothesis, and exact the results with a degree of confidence, reliability and generalizability. Thus, we have initial evidence of an individual showing duress and likely organ failure. Enough evidence to spark some debate, yet not enough to answer the big question. So, we await newer insightful technology and perhaps enough research for a meta-analysis.

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stereologist
14 hours ago, DieChecker said:

The debunking has long been debunked.

Not to say that this is Jesus's burial cloth, but the C-14 dating was done on a sample to included later added fibers/cloth, later added coloring materials and other contaminants. Lots of other C-14 dating done in the 1980s has shown to be suspect of the same contamination, as techniques and protocols for cleaning the test subject were not as stringent then as today.

Actually no. The debunking you state are proposals from those defending the shroud and may not be correct.

Was it a repair of some kind? If it was then it was some sort of "invisible weaving". There is nothing to support this idea except a few stray cotton fibers.

Other contaminants? Examination using multiple imaging modalities has shown this is not the case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

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