Sell it to me.

[Imaginarynumber1]

Spirituality/morality/faith/religion in general are for suckers. 

Those of us in the know realize that everything was created last Thursday, and this Thursday it will be destroyed and possibly created created all over again. By You.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

And I'm sure there are a bunch of things thst pepole say to you that you don't believe. Unless you believe in gnomes, vampires , Thor etc

You said this 

 I always assume people over react or make it up or imagine it when they have a story 

I asked why, when you have no evidences, your default position is ALWAYS  disbelief? Why dont' you keep an open mind ? 

If I have no evidences, my default position is to neither believe,nor disbelieve.  I would listen to anyone's story, of any event, and talk it through with them, trying to make sense of it,  rather than simply say it was impossible.   I start by  generally accepting that people are truthful, unless their words can be clearly shown to be false.  This doesnt mean I believe their stories, because the y might  be mistaken, even though they are being honest. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, Kismit said:

These emotional needs. How should a healthy person fulfil them.

I agree that it shouldn't be with an external source.

But it is not wrong to have your emotional requirements taken care of.

External sources CANNOT meet emotional needs,because these are inner mental needs.  They can only be met by other inner mental thought forms, or constructs, either consciously or subconsciously constructed to meet our needs.  

[Will Due]

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

External sources CANNOT meet emotional needs,because these are inner mental needs.  They can only be met by other inner mental thought forms, or constructs, either consciously or subconsciously constructed to meet our needs.  

That's right. And in addition, there's the superconscious activity of the mind that comes about through contact with the divine thought adjusting presence within.

 

[tcgram]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So how does prayer play a part in all of this?

Why do you do it?

What do you hope to get out of it?

Do you think they get answered or is it something else perhaps?

For me, prayer is a time to get by myself and look at what is going on in my life and what I need to work on.  A type of meditation, if you will.  I pour out my heart and gaze within to see how I can be more like Christ.  To love others unconditionally and to help when needed.  And again, it helps me emotionally to lean on God and not just myself.   I do not feel so stressed anymore, like I am the one who has to handle everything in my life.   I do believe that prayers get answered, there's Yes, No, or Wait.  If it's a No answer then I examine myself and ask if it's really something that I need in the long run, if it's Wait then I simply have to have some patience and await the outcome.  Do I still struggle with these answers?   Yes, especially when it's close to my heart and I am hurting.  But my faith then comes into play that I will someday find out why.  

[Wes4747]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So how does prayer play a part in all of this?

Why do you do it?

What do you hope to get out of it?

Do you think they get answered or is it something else perhaps?

I didnt pray much back then, but my main prayer was for god to reveal himself to me.

A couple of years ago i discovered contemplative prayer, which is more akin to meditation. Still practice, i dont consider it spiritual.

[granitesquare]

Regarding the original question (challenge), you do not have to believe in anything, it's not mandatory. You are who you are and that's valid for you so if you want support of your views then seek out like minded folks.  

[Grandpa Greenman]

Technically, I still consider myself a Pagan. More of a humanist Pagan than a polytheist, which gets kind of complicated. Nature is my higher power.  Anyway, it is against most Pagan paths to proselytize the religion.  There are good reasons for that: 1)  Each person has their own path to follow. 2) One can't truly know what is best for another person. 3) Paganism are a mystery religions, you have to experience it for yourself. 

[Only_]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

 

Why do you do it?

''The attitude is not to withdraw from the world when you realize how horrible it is but to realize that this horror is simply the foreground of a wonder and comeback and participate in it''.

-Joseph Campbell

Edited July 24, 2017 by Be.cause

[Opus Magnus]

Well, I was just thinking yesterday, or the day before about this reply, then I saw this thread, so anyways what I was thinking of was the part in Acts about the guy named Bar-Jesus.

I think this guy is interesting because his name is Bar-Jesus, like jesus with a bar, and he was a sorcerer who asked if the apostles would sell him the holy spirit.  So, anyway they told him no and made him blind for a while.  Because he had manipulated a great many of the people in the city with his sorcery.

Anyway, i found it interesting, not that you're Bar-Jesus, but that it's sort of similar.

[XenoFish]

5 hours ago, tcgram said:

For me, prayer is a time to get by myself and look at what is going on in my life and what I need to work on.  A type of meditation, if you will.  I pour out my heart and gaze within to see how I can be more like Christ.  To love others unconditionally and to help when needed.  And again, it helps me emotionally to lean on God and not just myself.   I do not feel so stressed anymore, like I am the one who has to handle everything in my life.   I do believe that prayers get answered, there's Yes, No, or Wait.  If it's a No answer then I examine myself and ask if it's really something that I need in the long run, if it's Wait then I simply have to have some patience and await the outcome.  Do I still struggle with these answers?   Yes, especially when it's close to my heart and I am hurting.  But my faith then comes into play that I will someday find out why.  

So I could say that in your case it a moment for introspect, retrospect, contemplation, and/or venting. I know you well enough to know that with or without religion you'd still be a good person. So in a way, I see that for you it's an anchor point. Something stable for you to lean on when the chips are down. Right?

[tcgram]

Yes, you are correct.  I use prayer daily to help me with everyday things as well.

[+Hammerclaw]

38 minutes ago, tcgram said:

Yes, you are correct.  I use prayer daily to help me with everyday things as well.

Me to. I talk to God like Phillipe the Mouse.

[khol]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

External sources CANNOT meet emotional needs,because these are inner mental needs.  They can only be met by other inner mental thought forms, or constructs, either consciously or subconsciously constructed to meet our needs.  

Bunk

External sources work just fine for me. Feeling down?..contemplating your existance?..depressed about losing your job or maybe your going through a divorce? It could be anything. Absorb the natural world around you which is completely external. It has a calming effect and can put things in perspective..example    enjoying a sunrise can change the way you percieve your day or any multitude of things. Drawing inward and invoking your god is not real. Nature is. I am in awe of this planet , the flora and fauna associated with it and the complex mechinisms that created it

Other examples take your family on a holiday, enjoy a good book, do volunteer work, call an old friend. All these things can help with negative emotion. And can change your outlook on life.

Creating fantasy you are the architect. You construct it to suit your needs.It makes you feel better.But its not reality

 

 

[XenoFish]

Sitting on the porch before sunrise, with that cool night air wrapping around you body. All the while sipping on a nice cool cup of coffee. Man, that can ease the mind and body. 

[+and-then]

18 hours ago, Will Due said:

Likewise, with respect, I've been around long enough to know that if somebody says there are more God's than the One and only God, then I have nothing more to say. Believe what you will.

I think maybe the two of you are clashing over a difference without a real distinction.  I try to a avoid that by simply identifying God as the God of the Bible or as the Creator God (Jesus).  Surely you understand that many, many other conceptions of God exist, so it's easy enough to get at cross purposes unless we go all the way in naming the object of our worship.  To be clear, I believe in the God of the Bible and his son, the Creator God, Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit who indwells those who believe in the Lord Jesus.   to mention It's rare here for Xeno to ask for proof for any other god.  It's all about trying to either reclaim his faith or set up people to demolish THEIR belief.  At least that has been my experience with him.  It's become tiresome and most folks don't play the game anymore.  If he TRULY is searching with a heart towards finding God, he won't be turned away.  I used to work with a guy very much like him.  Dude was a SERIOUS anti-Christian type.  He gave anyone hell that mentioned God and scoffed about the existence of a Creator, regularly.  Fortunately, he was also a nice enough guy on other matters so we became friends, I just avoided any conversation of a religious or faith nature.  The funny thing was, it was I that wound up crashing and burning and nearly losing my faith while he continued on, rock solid in his life and career.

I wound up losing my career and moving away and had no interaction with him for several years.  After I got back on a more even path and could see things more clearly, I sought out some of my old friends to make what amends I could and he was one of them.  I acted terribly irresponsibly and caused a huge extra burden of stress on my coworkers before I crashed.  I found him on that great social media oasis of the 21st century and sent a friend request.  Imagine my surprise when he not only accepted it, he told me not to worry about it at all.  He'd gone through some troubling times as well and had found his life again at the Cross.  I was speechless for a bit, then I remembered Paul.  No man could be more of a Christ hater than Paul was.  Then he was visited and became a believer as few do - he GOT the proof he wasn't even seeking.  My friend wasn't THAT unusual, he just had a conviction in his life that his way wasn't working and maybe those who spoke to him of faith just might have something to share.  HE sought out God and was rewarded with a peace of mind he said he'd never experienced.  THAT'S what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.  We live a life here that is like flash of light and then we return to dust.  If we find faith and it makes our time more tolerable and beneficial to ourselves and others, what difference does proof make in that?  Those who demand that level of proof from God usually do not expect the same level of assurance from anything else in life.  To me, that is telling.  I say, find your sense of peace and goodwill wherever you can.  It yields many benefits and even if you are faking it to begin, you might just realize one day that no faking is required any longer.  Faith is not some cipher that must be solved.  Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN.  In short, if there is proof, it ain't faith.

[+and-then]

21 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Sitting on the porch before sunrise, with that cool night air wrapping around you body. All the while sipping on a nice cool cup of coffee. Man, that can ease the mind and body. 

When I worked construction in my teens and twenties, that was my favorite routine!  I had to be at work by 7 so I'd get up a couple hours early and have coffee sitting on a porch swing and listening to the sounds of nature or maybe some music I loved.  It made the day less stressful to be sure.

[XenoFish]

I am doing what I have been doing since I've been here. Looking for answers. I want to understand why people believe to understand why I did at one point. Because for something reason I no longer know. So far I have had some good answers. Things to reflect upon. Which is more than I have had in the past. Do I want to reclaim my faith in a higher power, I do not know. Do I want to understand why I had faith in such things, yes. Through the explanations of others I seek guide post in a way. To understand the ME from 4 years ago. When I had faith that everything would work out, that I trusted that tomorrow could be better than today. I am not as antagonistic as I used to be when I first got here. Nor am I in that deep depression I once had. 

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, and then said:

I think maybe the two of you are clashing over a difference without a real distinction.  I try to a avoid that by simply identifying God as the God of the Bible or as the Creator God (Jesus).  Surely you understand that many, many other conceptions of God exist, so it's easy enough to get at cross purposes unless we go all the way in naming the object of our worship.  To be clear, I believe in the God of the Bible and his son, the Creator God, Jesus, as well as the Holy Spirit who indwells those who believe in the Lord Jesus.   to mention It's rare here for Xeno to ask for proof for any other god.  It's all about trying to either reclaim his faith or set up people to demolish THEIR belief.  At least that has been my experience with him.  It's become tiresome and most folks don't play the game anymore.  If he TRULY is searching with a heart towards finding God, he won't be turned away.  I used to work with a guy very much like him.  Dude was a SERIOUS anti-Christian type.  He gave anyone hell that mentioned God and scoffed about the existence of a Creator, regularly.  Fortunately, he was also a nice enough guy on other matters so we became friends, I just avoided any conversation of a religious or faith nature.  The funny thing was, it was I that wound up crashing and burning and nearly losing my faith while he continued on, rock solid in his life and career.

I wound up losing my career and moving away and had no interaction with him for several years.  After I got back on a more even path and could see things more clearly, I sought out some of my old friends to make what amends I could and he was one of them.  I acted terribly irresponsibly and caused a huge extra burden of stress on my coworkers before I crashed.  I found him on that great social media oasis of the 21st century and sent a friend request.  Imagine my surprise when he not only accepted it, he told me not to worry about it at all.  He'd gone through some troubling times as well and had found his life again at the Cross.  I was speechless for a bit, then I remembered Paul.  No man could be more of a Christ hater than Paul was.  Then he was visited and became a believer as few do - he GOT the proof he wasn't even seeking.  My friend wasn't THAT unusual, he just had a conviction in his life that his way wasn't working and maybe those who spoke to him of faith just might have something to share.  HE sought out God and was rewarded with a peace of mind he said he'd never experienced.  THAT'S what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.  We live a life here that is like flash of light and then we return to dust.  If we find faith and it makes our time more tolerable and beneficial to ourselves and others, what difference does proof make in that?  Those who demand that level of proof from God usually do not expect the same level of assurance from anything else in life.  To me, that is telling.  I say, find your sense of peace and goodwill wherever you can.  It yields many benefits and even if you are faking it to begin, you might just realize one day that no faking is required any longer.  Faith is not some cipher that must be solved.  Faith is the substance of things HOPED for, the EVIDENCE of things UNSEEN.  In short, if there is proof, it ain't faith.

The proof is, that there is no proof. But the experience of faith is. You are right.

 

[Will Due]

51 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I am doing what I have been doing since I've been here. Looking for answers. I want to understand why people believe to understand why I did at one point. Because for something reason I no longer know. So far I have had some good answers. Things to reflect upon. Which is more than I have had in the past. Do I want to reclaim my faith in a higher power, I do not know. Do I want to understand why I had faith in such things, yes. Through the explanations of others I seek guide post in a way. To understand the ME from 4 years ago. When I had faith that everything would work out, that I trusted that tomorrow could be better than today. I am not as antagonistic as I used to be when I first got here. Nor am I in that deep depression I once had. 

Sometimes, looking back and wondering, is counterproductive. Especially if it isn't understandable anymore. Perhaps it was just scaffolding anyway and it sevrved its purpose. You're not far.

 

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Will Due said:

That's right. And in addition, there's the superconscious activity of the mind that comes about through contact with the divine thought adjusting presence within.

 

I guess i would call that  the enlightenment, or enhanced and empowered consciousness, which occurs with contact with the cosmic consciousness . But, in religious terms, it is as you say. 

[RavenHawk]

On 7/23/2017 at 11:33 AM, XenoFish said:

Alright I have a challenge for you. Convince me that my disbelief is wrong and show me why I should have faith in a higher power. I want to know why should I believe in god or anything spiritual. 

Oh gee.  I wouldn't want to try.  Your disbelief is yours.  You don't need to have faith in a higher power.  I can't nor can I force you to and neither do I have the desire or inclination.  It is clear that you don't understand the concept.  It is beyond you.  That's fine.  You may have thought you had believed in the past but don’t anymore.  That doesn’t matter; you probably never did and just became honest with yourself.  However, I would ask that you at least try to understand that there is something beyond you that you can't even comprehend.  You should understand that concept of not knowing everything.  Man's science revealing secrets of this universe is still in its infancy.  Others can sense this spiritual plane so don't be jealous because you can’t.  Just accept that it is there.  And I'm not saying to accept the faith, just that it exists.  It works in the lives of many.  You must see that?  You have to be intelligent enough to see that this isn’t some grand delusion.  People feel something that you can’t.  What’s hard to understand about that?

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Technically, I still consider myself a Pagan. More of a humanist Pagan than a polytheist, which gets kind of complicated. Nature is my higher power.  Anyway, it is against most Pagan paths to proselytize the religion.  There are good reasons for that: 1)  Each person has their own path to follow. 2) One can't truly know what is best for another person. 3) Paganism are a mystery religions, you have to experience it for yourself. 

I agree with everything you say here.  IMO all of these  also apply to any spiritual experience.  

Trying to proselytise is counter productive ( although talking about your experiences is not )  because belief and understanding only come from within, and cannot be imposed from any external belief or doctrine. it is actually wrong/counterproductive  to say " mine is the only experience or only way."  because this can cause people to stray from the best  path for them. 

[Tatetopa]

I'll try once more.  You believe because you need to or want to, no other reasons are sufficient.

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, khol said:

Bunk

External sources work just fine for me. Feeling down?..contemplating your existance?..depressed about losing your job or maybe your going through a divorce? It could be anything. Absorb the natural world around you which is completely external. It has a calming effect and can put things in perspective..example    enjoying a sunrise can change the way you percieve your day or any multitude of things. Drawing inward and invoking your god is not real. Nature is. I am in awe of this planet , the flora and fauna associated with it and the complex mechinisms that created it

Other examples take your family on a holiday, enjoy a good book, do volunteer work, call an old friend. All these things can help with negative emotion. And can change your outlook on life.

Creating fantasy you are the architect. You construct it to suit your needs.It makes you feel better.But its not reality

 

 

Sorry, but it  it is not the external sources which are uplifting you, but your own mind.  The same with xeno's porch experience.  It isn't the porch or the sunrise or the cool breeze which is constructing his mood , it is his mind's reflection on these things.  Another person might be feeling p***ed off, cold and cranky, at having to get up so early. Again, it isnt the external stimuli but the mind's response to them, which creates the mood.  The resources and sources for any emotion come from within your mind. You can learn to find and use them, without having any external stimuli.

So xeno could have the same spiritual experience, sitting in a damp, dark dungeon, because all the resources he needs to do so, exist in his mind  

One can learn  how to do this by sensing the wonder and power of nature, but once you have learned how to construct the neural circuitry, and produce the chemical responses which occur in such a setting,  you can do so with an exercise of will, by directing your mind consciously to reproduce the same neural patterns and pathways.

 No one NEEDS external sources to be happy, and unhappiness is likewise not dependent on others or environment.  We learn that we are  happy in  some circumstances and unhappy in others, and we thus think these are making us happy or sad,  but these are simply  learned mental responses to stimuli.  You can reproduce the same responses, on demand, by conscious learned effort.  

To the human mind and our  mental  psychology, there is absolutely no scientifically discernible difference, between memories, emotions,  thoughts and responses, created from  external stimuli, and  stimuli created within the mind,  from  imagined or  dreamed  stimuli. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Mr Walker