Lord Harry Posted August 2, 2017 Author #101 Share Posted August 2, 2017 10 minutes ago, Hanslune said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cremo his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Archeology That's the one. Yep, a real crank fest. I may read it though, just to keep abreast of what the fringe is up to. Better to refute them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oniomancer Posted August 2, 2017 #102 Share Posted August 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Lord Harry said: I'm not so sure it would have been as big of a problem as many would assume. There is in fact an historical precedent for just such an event. The Vikings navigated a few thousand miles up the Volga River to the area of modern day Ukraine, where they established the Rurrikid Dynasty of Kievan Rus during the mid-9th century AD. They were fearless and intrepid explorers, and would not have hesitated to venture into unknown lands if they thought doing so would benefit them in some way. How navigable was the Volga originally though compared to it's new world counterparts? Cuz' they aren't as much as you might think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oniomancer Posted August 2, 2017 #103 Share Posted August 2, 2017 5 hours ago, ShadowSot said: Protoceratops. The idea being that a fragmented skull could be used to create the profile of a griffin. Though as I recall none were found in the area cited. Though it's a sort of just so story. There are examples from more recent European history. Like the dragon Klagenfurt They aren't the only ones with a dragon relic: Wawel Dragon - Wikipedia And thereby hangs a tale, or rib, or shoulder blade or something.... http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/the-bones-of-the-wawel-dragon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 2, 2017 #104 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, Kenemet said: Although there is one book by an anthropologist that makes this case, paleontologists are in general unimpressed with the idea. The bones you see in museums are restored and repaired. In nature, they're... well, they're awful. For example, in this photo there are 9 different bones - pachyrhinosaur, hadrosaur, and the gods know what else. You probably can't find them all but I can. This is what dinosaur and mammoth bones look like "in nature." Here's the back of a mammoth head just as you'd see it eroding out of the ground. This is only a small portion of it, but this was the part that was sticking out. Even if the whole thing appeared, it's embedded in rock and clay and until it gets cleaned off you really can't tell what the thing is. And this is why paleontologists (and I) seriously doubt the "saw bones eroding out and made stories" concept. It's neat, but the author hadn't been on many field trips with the rock jocks and shovelbums. (the Legos are for scale because friends kept asking "how big is that?" A friend sent me a Lego Paleontologist and that got me into minifigs and taking photos with them posing all over the rocks when I'm doing prep in the lab. Pleistocene bones are often not encased in matrix and are generally better preserved, because they are fairly young (geologically speaking) and have not been deteriorated/distorted by diagenesis. Comparing Pleistocene mammoth bones with Cretaceous Pachyrhinosaurus bones (are they from one of the bonebeds in Alaska?) is comparing two very different specimens that have been subject to different taphonomic and geologic processes. Not all preservational environments are the same. There is actually historical documentation of Native Americans identifying mammoth bones as those of giants, including at the famous Big Bone Lick site in Kentucky. If you haven't read some of Adrienne Mayor's work, then I recommend that you do. On a side note, what prep lab do you work at? Edited August 2, 2017 by Carnoferox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bavarian Raven Posted August 2, 2017 #105 Share Posted August 2, 2017 While the Kensington ruinstone is most likely a hoax, I've yet to see anyone explain how the carved ruins yon the stone were weathered though. :s that is still a mystery that needs solving. Unless the stone itself was carved somewhere else near the north east Atlantic and transported inland at some later date. As for Norse explorations of the new world, we know they explored the Gulf of St Lawrence, coastal Labrador and Quebec, into Hudson Bay , the high arctic (including Heidelberg and Ellesmere Island) and at least the western half of the Canadian arctic archepelago. Most likely they followed the major rivers in this region inland until the first major rapids as well (and possibly further too for their smaller ships were designed to be portage). A while ago I created a thread on the topic of Norse/ Vikings in the new world and news relating to such. I'll update that thread in the near future with some interesting research / articles I've happened upon recently. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted August 2, 2017 #106 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lord Harry said: That's the one. Yep, a real crank fest. I may read it though, just to keep abreast of what the fringe is up to. Better to refute them. Long long book, if I remember correctly used a lot of ill defined 18 & 19th century fines and he pretends the guesses the amateur scientists made then were 'accurate'. Edited August 2, 2017 by Hanslune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingitsune Posted August 2, 2017 #107 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) On 7/31/2017 at 4:13 PM, Hanslune said: Question for our resident stone worker. How long would it take a mason to create this considering he was on a expedition? I was wondering if my base section of my patrol had been wiped out I wouldn't have hung around for the attackers to return. This is an image of the Kensington stone The stone is carved from greywacke, is 79 cm long, 41 cm wide and 14 cm thick (31×16×5½) inches: these are maximum dimensions, as the stone is not perfectly rectangular) and weighs around 104 kg (230 lb). It was reported that, "The stone has broken along natural lines of cleavage and none of the faces was dressed in preparation for the inscription". First, I don't think anyone would dare to stop for some stone carving in a middle of a chase. I would guess the Norses would be in a night camp when their pursuiers would be also resting for the night. To people who would be well trained at it, it wouldn't be impossible to do it within a single night, especially if there were different persons working on different faces. I would say between one hour to six, depending of the nature of the stone. In the class I took, we used Indiana stone, coming from the state of Indiana, which I could even cut with a metal saw. Inuits are using soapstone which can be carved with simple butter knife. If the stone was closer to granite, though, it would have taken better tools. That said, I don't understand why they would chose to use stone when they can use wood. The message seems to have been for some people they were expecting in the coming months to the very last. The noise alone of sculpting could have draw their enemies to them in the dead of the night. Unless the stone was really soft and they just used knifes. -------------------------------- On the subject of pre-columbian contacts, there's only two good places to cross on the Atlantic, the Northern islands and the West African coast to North-East Brazil. On the Pacific, there are the Northern route and the South Pacific islands route, either via Hawaii or Easter Island. Using an earth globe and a ribbon, I mesured the shortest distance between the Americas and Hawaii, Easter Isalnd or Africa is about 3000 kilometers. Going West for the Solutreans from Europe to the Americas would be about the same. Then, there are currents to consider: For Atlantic, the current are working against the Europeans, unless they pass via the African roat. As for Sub-Saharian African, they have to start the trip from Senegal and North. On the Pacific, the South road isn't too easy either. The currents could have been weaker back to the Solutrean days though. To randomly get to the Americas from Europe, one would need to pass through the Gulf Stream then take the Greenland current. The Irish priests would have been in Iceland before the Norse, or so said the saga. There is no real archeological eveidence of them in the island to date, though. And if they did make it to the Americas, they were looking for living alone in the nature, they would probably avoid contact anyway, which kind of goes against the whole "pre-columbian contact" concept... Although there may have been families moving in the islands tooin the same population movement than Irish people in the Hebrides. Anyway, there is no trace of human occupation of the Faroe Islands before the 5th century, the Norse took over on the 8th century. Could these first inhabitants move to Iceland eventually, then miss the island and land to Newfoundland? Maybe. Would it be more than just a pit stop before going back to Iceland? Who knows? Here's a better view of the Atlantic currents: For the Equatorial road, if some boat would have missed the Canary islands, the current would have pushed it to the Caribbeans. For a Sub-Saharian kingdom, it would need to leave the continent from around the Senegal. South than that the ship would have been push down towards the Congo region. The Canaries could have been used by the 5th century BC by various civilisations, a stray boat attempting to land there could end up in the Americas. Finally, currents could have pushed a boat from South Africa, Namibia or Angola into the americas, but the trip would be quite long, chances are the crew would be long dead by the landing. On the pacific, a Japanese, Korean or Chinese boat could easily wash on the Canadian or American coast. Even an unattended motor bike in a container did it on its own after the 2011 tsunami. The problem is to make it alive, it's about twice as far as Hawaii or Easter Island road. And once in the Americas would they have bother to stay there? Would they have established permanent contact? Or would they just have fix the boat, then turn back where they came from? If we add the dominant winds to the map: Winds are not favoring the Northern Atlantic road, but the West Africa to Brazil would be even easier. It could also help the Southern Africa to Brazil. On the Pacific, it's even easier for an East Asian boat to reach the North American West coast, but it works against the Pacific Islands roads. My conclusion is, the most probable road (beside the obvious Beringia or North Pacific islands) would be East Asia via the kuroshio to the Pacific coast and North West Africa via the Canary current to the Caribbeans. Edited August 2, 2017 by Gingitsune 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted August 2, 2017 #108 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) 23 hours ago, Harte said: AFAIK, it hasn't been established that the people that occupied Monte Verde actually came there via Beringia. Harte Most of the accepted models I see still have the migration originate in Beringia and only differ in dating or sometimes allow for small boats and basically riding coastline on down. None of the models address meadowcroft, cactus point, or the other pre Clovis sites toward the East other than to question their dating or propose a migration across Canada then down. So for those early cultures you have evidence of lithics moving East to West fairly long distances by foot before being cached. Yet for some reason it is almost impossible to picture Norse in a boat deciding to explore a resource rich freshwater system? Edited August 2, 2017 by Jarocal Cladking translations are from the natural language 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted August 2, 2017 #109 Share Posted August 2, 2017 On the question of weather. The Spanish found the hurricanes to be 'challenging'. A list of all their shipping loses to hurricanes http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdeadlyapp2.shtml?text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted August 2, 2017 #110 Share Posted August 2, 2017 18 hours ago, Carnoferox said: Pleistocene bones are often not encased in matrix and are generally better preserved, because they are fairly young (geologically speaking) and have not been deteriorated/distorted by diagenesis. Comparing Pleistocene mammoth bones with Cretaceous Pachyrhinosaurus bones (are they from one of the bonebeds in Alaska?) is comparing two very different specimens that have been subject to different taphonomic and geologic processes. Not all preservational environments are the same. I was aware of it (having worked on both) - and of course "fossil" is not a precisely defined term (to wit: "anything over 6,000 years old that's buried") but in talking about ceratopsians being the inspiration for griffins, they all date from the Cretaceous. Pleistocene bones are in reasonable shape, but older material (such as ceritopsians) are almost always in very bad shape, crushed and deformed by geologic processes. Not always, of course, but quite frequently. I've been working as a volunteer fossil preparator for the Perot for over 11 years. It was something I never thought I'd do, but I was hooked from the moment I first picked up an airscribe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnoferox Posted August 2, 2017 #111 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Kenemet said: I was aware of it (having worked on both) - and of course "fossil" is not a precisely defined term (to wit: "anything over 6,000 years old that's buried") but in talking about ceratopsians being the inspiration for griffins, they all date from the Cretaceous. Pleistocene bones are in reasonable shape, but older material (such as ceritopsians) are almost always in very bad shape, crushed and deformed by geologic processes. Not always, of course, but quite frequently. I've been working as a volunteer fossil preparator for the Perot for over 11 years. It was something I never thought I'd do, but I was hooked from the moment I first picked up an airscribe. Like you I don't agree with Mayor's hypothesis on the Protoceratops-griffins connection for a number of reasons (including preservation), but the the evidence in support of the mammoths-giant humans connection is more tenable. Edited August 2, 2017 by Carnoferox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted August 2, 2017 #112 Share Posted August 2, 2017 19 hours ago, Lord Harry said: That's the one. Yep, a real crank fest. I may read it though, just to keep abreast of what the fringe is up to. Better to refute them. Inside the front cover it tells you it was published by the Hare Krishna. They don't say that exactly, they say the Bhaktivedanta Institute. I wonder... has Pat Robertson published any books on anthropology? Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harry Posted August 2, 2017 Author #113 Share Posted August 2, 2017 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Harte said: Inside the front cover it tells you it was published by the Hare Krishna. They don't say that exactly, they say the Bhaktivedanta Institute. I wonder... has Pat Robertson published any books on anthropology? Harte Well that explains the book's content. As for Pat Robertson, I'm not sure. He doesn't exactly strike me as the scholarly type. Edited August 2, 2017 by Lord Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSot Posted August 2, 2017 #114 Share Posted August 2, 2017 He did take a woman to task for calling in about not believing in dinosaurs. He very much thinks without dinosaurs they lose the kids. And thinking they existed at the same time as humans is just stupid. As I recall, been awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted August 3, 2017 #115 Share Posted August 3, 2017 3 hours ago, ShadowSot said: He did take a woman to task for calling in about not believing in dinosaurs. He very much thinks without dinosaurs they lose the kids. And thinking they existed at the same time as humans is just stupid. As I recall, been awhile. ...I think it might be straining the meaning of the verb to call what Pat Robertson does "thinking," --Jaylemurph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSot Posted August 3, 2017 #116 Share Posted August 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, jaylemurph said: ...I think it might be straining the meaning of the verb to call what Pat Robertson does "thinking," --Jaylemurph He's a conman. He knows what he can use and what he has to throw out. It takes a bit of thinking at least to hold onto it for so long. Dude looks more like a mummy than Kmt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted August 3, 2017 #117 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 minute ago, ShadowSot said: He's a conman. He knows what he can use and what he has to throw out. It takes a bit of thinking at least to hold onto it for so long. Dude looks more like a mummy than Kmt. He has more hair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSot Posted August 3, 2017 #118 Share Posted August 3, 2017 13 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said: He has more hair. You sure? Could be moss. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harry Posted August 3, 2017 Author #119 Share Posted August 3, 2017 Does anyone here know of any ancient Roman documents which describe travel on the Atlantic? Preferably in some detail, and excluding of course cross channel travel to Roman occupied Britannia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted August 3, 2017 #120 Share Posted August 3, 2017 It's interesting how many new world cultures are said to have suddenly and mysteriously collapsed or disappeared. Everytime I hear that I think disease. A ship from the East ,or West, accidentally landing in the new world might have little to no lasting impact ,culturally, but an entirely new disease very well could spread along trade routes with devastating results. ...and if a population dies off fast enough, there my be little evidence of thier demise? Bones on the ground can "mysteriously" and " unexplainable" disappear in a very short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted August 3, 2017 #121 Share Posted August 3, 2017 1 hour ago, lightly said: It's interesting how many new world cultures are said to have suddenly and mysteriously collapsed or disappeared. Everytime I hear that I think disease. A ship from the East ,or West, accidentally landing in the new world might have little to no lasting impact ,culturally, but an entirely new disease very well could spread along trade routes with devastating results. ...and if a population dies off fast enough, there my be little evidence of thier demise? Bones on the ground can "mysteriously" and " unexplainable" disappear in a very short time. The problem with that is, if there had been such contact, it's difficult to explain the Native American's absence of any resistance to the diseases brought by the Spaniards. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted August 3, 2017 #122 Share Posted August 3, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Lord Harry said: Does anyone here know of any ancient Roman documents which describe travel on the Atlantic? Preferably in some detail, and excluding of course cross channel travel to Roman occupied Britannia. This book covers that subject in some detail https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdid=book-AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdot=1&source=gbs_vpt_read https://books.google.com/books?id=AFpzZfm7WdYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Edited August 3, 2017 by Hanslune 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted August 3, 2017 #123 Share Posted August 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Hanslune said: This book covers that subject in some detail https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdid=book-AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdot=1&source=gbs_vpt_read https://books.google.com/books/content/images/frontcover/AFpzZfm7WdYC?fife=w300 From the description "Discussing for the first time the relevance of Iceland and the Arctic to Greco-Roman culture, this groundbreaking work is an enthralling ..." Hans, I am thinking Norse mining engineers helped the ancient Bosians carve the hills around Visoko. Not to mention the price. I can get 3 Hancocks, 2 Sitchins, and a Bauval(possibly with a Creighton title tossed in free) for that kind of money from a used bookstore. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Harry Posted August 3, 2017 Author #124 Share Posted August 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, Hanslune said: This book covers that subject in some detail https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdid=book-AFpzZfm7WdYC&rdot=1&source=gbs_vpt_read https://books.google.com/books?id=AFpzZfm7WdYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Excellent! Thanks. By the way, I have been doing some research into the possibility of Roman contact with the Pre-Columbian Americas (hence my question), and I must say while it certainly isn't conclusive, it is appearing to have been more and more convincing a hypothesis. Jarocal posted this article earlier in the thread, which is a revised version of the same article I posted in my initial post. The evidence proposed for the Calixtlahuaca head being of Roman origin and deposited into the burial mound during the pre-Conquest period is nothing less than intriguing. http://www.unm.edu/~rhristov/calixtlahuaca.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted August 3, 2017 #125 Share Posted August 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jarocal said: From the description "Discussing for the first time the relevance of Iceland and the Arctic to Greco-Roman culture, this groundbreaking work is an enthralling ..." Hans, I am thinking Norse mining engineers helped the ancient Bosians carve the hills around Visoko. Not to mention the price. I can get 3 Hancocks, 2 Sitchins, and a Bauval(possibly with a Creighton title tossed in free) for that kind of money from a used bookstore. Yeah the prices are a bit wild. I read it some years ago and gave it to another or I could send you my copy. A lot of the Roman descriptions of islands in the Atlantic are probably on line somewhere - I bet one of our members Atalante would have the links for I am sure he has read them all multiple times 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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