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ChaosRose

Gnosticism

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I started a new discussion so as not to derail Xeno''s 'Sell it to me' topic. 

I'm interested in Gnosticism and discussing the different types. I've been to the OTO Gnostic Mass, but it's...different...than what I think traditional Gnostics had in mind. 

This is a bit from the wiki page on the Ecclesia Gnostica as a primer on basic beliefs:

There is an original and transcendental spiritual unity which came to emanate a vast manifestation of pluralities. The manifest universe of matter and mind (psyche) was created by spiritual beings possessing inferior powers, one of their objectives being continued separation of humans from the unity (God).

The human being is a composite, the outer aspect being the handiwork of the inferior creators, while the "inner man" has the character of a fallen spark of the ultimate divine unity. Though these sparks slumber in their material and mental prison, there is a constant effort directed toward their awakening and liberation from the unity. Particularly honored for such aid is the emanation called Sophia (Wisdom). The awakening of the inmost divine essence is effected by salvific knowledge, called Gnosis.

Messengers of light have been sent by the unity for the advancement of Gnosis in humans. The greatest of these messengers in our historical and geographical matrix was Jesus Christ. Jesus was a teacher, imparting instruction concerning the way of Gnosis, and he was a hierophant, imparting mysteries. These mysteries (sacraments) are mighty aids toward Gnosis entrusted by Jesus to his apostles and to their successors. By way of the spiritual practice of the mysteries (sacraments) and a relentless and uncompromising striving for Gnosis, humans can steadily advance toward liberation. The ultimate objective of this process of liberation is the achievement of salvific knowledge and with it freedom from embodied existence and return to the ultimate unity.

I like this idea of a divine unity and a divine 'spark.' I also like that they aren't dogmatic about all of this stuff. 

Anyway...up for discussion.

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I also think it's cool how they like Jesus, but they don't get hung up on Jesus being the only way to salvation. 

The church does not proselytize. (Gotta love that) There is not an exclusive claim of salvation; salvation is not dependent on participation in the church. Salvation is also understood differently from salvation in mainstream Christianity: salvation is achieved through Gnosis, described as "an inner 'knowingness,' a change of consciousness."[28]

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I know...a person who thinks God is ultimately unknowable liking Gnosticism.

The irony isn't lost on me. 

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33 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

I know...a person who thinks God is ultimately unknowable liking Gnosticism.

The irony isn't lost on me. 

I get it. These beliefs ask for little faith to get the ball rolling and then require one to find their own knowing.

Fanning a little spark of (hope?) to verify gods existance maybe?

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8 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

I get it. These beliefs ask for little faith to get the ball rolling and then require one to find their own knowing.

Fanning a little spark of (hope?) to verify gods existance maybe?

Maybe that's what the 'divine spark' is. 

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Posted (edited)

I guess I like the idea that people have to think for themselves, and not rely on religious texts or someone else to explain for them the way they should believe.

Edited by ChaosRose
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1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

I started a new discussion so as not to derail Xeno''s 'Sell it to me' topic. 

 

 

I don't know anything on this subject, but I wanted to compliment you for the effort in keeping threads on the subject. People should take lesson here.

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1 hour ago, ChaosRose said:

I also think it's cool how they like Jesus, but they don't get hung up on Jesus being the only way to salvation. 

The church does not proselytize. (Gotta love that) There is not an exclusive claim of salvation; salvation is not dependent on participation in the church. Salvation is also understood differently from salvation in mainstream Christianity: salvation is achieved through Gnosis, described as "an inner 'knowingness,' a change of consciousness."[28]

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

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2 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

Lol...defensive proselytizing. When someone accosts you with their beliefs, so you fire back. 

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I prefer having no hypotheticals to defend.. 

I like how Buddha said he was just a finger pointing to the moon.

I dont know if messengers of light exist, but i appreciate the value in finding ones personal gnosis. Sincerity with the self and scrutiny with our beliefs.

Lately, i lean towards the nothing is true, everything is permitted concept.

Chaotes may have it halfway right. 

 

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36 minutes ago, nephili said:

I don't know anything on this subject, but I wanted to compliment you for the effort in keeping threads on the subject. People should take lesson here.

May I point out that seems like a strange statement, given your avatar name ... Neplili(m).  ;)

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25 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

May I point out that seems like a strange statement, given your avatar name ... Neplili(m).  ;)

I know enough to be fascinated, but not enough to carry a discussion with the master debaters on this forum. ^_^

The Nephilim is personal to me. I had a psychic tell me I'm descended from the Nephilim. Not saying I believe it, it sure made me feel cool though B)

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1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

I have no problem being open enough to listen to proselytising if it is done with aplomb. When a theist pushes after a rejection though, that is when it becomes uncouth.

 

As a Gnostic Christian, I proselytise to some extent, for the method I found that worked and helped me suffer my apotheosis, but I do not push against a closed mind.

 

 Any who have found a way to any God should preach a bit, just as any who have found a God to be evil should preach against that God.

 

Not preaching against evil Gods is to allow our friends and neighbors to follow poor moral tenets and that is perhaps why the mainstream religions have become what they are. A true Gnostic Christian will speak for his moral religion while speaking against the immoral ones.

 

Regards

DL

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24 minutes ago, nephili said:

I know enough to be fascinated, but not enough to carry a discussion with the master debaters on this forum. ^_^

The Nephilim is personal to me. I had a psychic tell me I'm descended from the Nephilim. Not saying I believe it, it sure made me feel cool though B)

Cool??

Did God not use genocide on the world because of your ancestors after the sons of God used the earth as a brothel to produce the original Nephilim?

Not that I believe that myth to be true.

 

Regards

DL

 

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2 minutes ago, Greatest I am said:
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

I have no problem being open enough to listen to proselytising if it is done with aplomb. When a theist pushes after a rejection though, that is when it becomes uncouth.

 

That's cool that you don't have a problem with that. All power to ya my friend. :) 

But, I think it's understandable that not everyone has that thought process, and that they may find it a problem. (Of course, I have the same thoughts as you do when it becomes pushed). 

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As a Gnostic Christian, I proselytise to some extent, for the method I found that worked and helped me suffer my apotheosis, but I do not push against a closed mind.

And I'm saying this with a little humor in it, but this could get tricky for me and my belief. What if my 'defensive proselyting' is just as needed to an 'approached proselyting'? ;)  

Serious though, maybe it's not just something to look at someone with a closed mind, I think. What if someone thought of you that way, with their version of proselyting? (which, of course, if it's not mentioned, how would you know? ;)  :o  :tu:  ) Would this be a way of jumping to conclusions with a pre-judged mind? 

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Any who have found a way to any God should preach a bit, just as any who have found a God to be evil should preach against that God.

But, I disagree with this very much. Should obligations be placed on me, from an outside source? Should I be obligated to preach, if it's not God I have found a way to, but something else, (which I believe my belief to be)? Would you be open to be proselytized too of that? 

I don't know if this is my belief or my conscience, but I feel someone should not be burden to think they have the right of way for others. I just don't see the logic in it. 

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Not preaching against evil Gods is to allow our friends and neighbors to follow poor moral tenets and that is perhaps why the mainstream religions have become what they are. A true Gnostic Christian will speak for his moral religion while speaking against the immoral ones.

 

Regards

DL

How do you know, that is the case? And how is it, that anyone can feel they can judge that others are following poor moral tenets, whether what ever belief they have? It's kind of like how some have made me feel wrong for being a lefty. Some feel that is evil, but seriously, no, it's not. It's just writing with the opposite hand. 

And what of the Atheists? They don't see any gods exist. Should they be preached to against evil gods?

 

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, nephili said:

The Nephilim is personal to me. I had a psychic tell me I'm descended from the Nephilim. Not saying I believe it, it sure made me feel cool though B)

I kind of believe it.  But it will be very interesting if we ever learn the full story of the history of our genetics.  How much is natural and how much is artificial?  Was our intelligence stimulated by a natural virus or introduced?  Etc...

Edited by RavenHawk
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1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

As I wrote in another post, Jesus commands us to make disciples of all nations.  The problem comes in interpretation.  Even though it is termed as proselytizing, it is actually a sharing of faith (knowledge).  Jesus establishes the Golden Rule as his Commandment.  What people tend to forget when preaching is how would you feel if someone wouldn't stop thumping the Bible (or whatever) at you?  The fact is, is that the vast majority of non-Christians already know what the Bible says.  You don't need to hit them over the head with it.  But be ready when they come to you with questions and share your faith honestly.  That is the best way to witness.  When someone like Xeno comes around saying "sell it to me", you already know they are not serious and are just looking to take out their anger.

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1 hour ago, Greatest I am said:

Cool??

Did God not use genocide on the world because of your ancestors after the sons of God used the earth as a brothel to produce the original Nephilim?

Not that I believe that myth to be true.

 

Regards

DL

 

Yes. Really cool. I'd love to find out I am descended from "angel" and human hybrids. An evolved human.

Not that I necessarily believe it either.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:
4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think that is interesting. My belief is strongly against proselyting. Well, to a point. It believes in defensive proselyting, when first proselyting first. *shrugs* 

 

As I wrote in another post, Jesus commands us to make disciples of all nations.  

Jesus commands all of us? How does he do that? Get to all of us, I mean. Because I never got that command. Not in the, 'I follow it, and actually believe it to do so' type of way. (Well, definitely getting it at all, really. )

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The problem comes in interpretation.  Even though it is termed as proselytizing, it is actually a sharing of faith (knowledge).  

Does this allow sharing of all faiths to each other? Does it allow for Atheists to share what they feel should be known? If I'm being the target to have someone else's faith shared to, can I share my faith back? Or is it one sided? 

Quote

Jesus establishes the Golden Rule as his Commandment.  What people tend to forget when preaching is how would you feel if someone wouldn't stop thumping the Bible (or whatever) at you? 

Again, my belief is very strong in being against proselyting. Isn't my faith just as important to me, as you see your's to you? I feel, I have a right to turn down anyone who wants to 'share their faith' when it comes to it being preaching or proselyting. I do see a difference. I have had wonderful conversations with people from all paths, that actually do share their faith and don't push or proselytize. I have also have had very uncomfortable experiences of people who approach uninvited, and 'lecture' and tell me what to do. Frankly, I tend to find that as proselyting. I unusually don't see it as sharing of faith, when it's done in that manner. (In a sense, I find it judgmental)

I might be using this as a good example of 'sharing of faith'. I would think sharing my faith, (like it's rules against proselyting) is just as part as someone coming to talk about their's. I understand that varying types of religions want their subjects to preach and proselytize and get more converts, as I would think you want me to share how my belief is against that and why it is, and how I have a right to not hear it and be subjected to it.

Growing up secular, not only has me see from the outside of various Christian sects, but other religions too, and I see the good and the bad, and I see what is helpful and what hurts, who lives by it well, and who lives by it wrongly, and I see how I cannot believe in it, because how my growing up in no teaching of religion backs up not seeing the aspects that Various Christian religions preaches. 

I wonder if my belief is close to the topic of this thread. 

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The fact is, is that the vast majority of non-Christians already know what the Bible says.  You don't need to hit them over the head with it.  But be ready when they come to you with questions and share your faith honestly.  That is the best way to witness.  

Is this telling me how to proselytize Christianity? And as for those who aren't the vast majority of non-Christians who already know what the bible says, I'm not one of them. (and according to Americn law, That's ok. :tu:  ) And, I don't have questions. And, I know the difference between sharing and proselytizing. And when my faith strongly says proselyting is wrong from both ends of preaching and having to listen, my faith says it's wrong! If we're talking about the sharing of faith, than the sharing of faith on both sides is what I feel it should be. Everyone has a right to defend themselves and their right to stand for their beliefs and lack of them. 

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When someone like Xeno comes around saying "sell it to me", you already know they are not serious and are just looking to take out their anger.

Actually, knowing Xeno, I really feel he is honestly wanting to know and is looking to see if there is one for him. I don't think he would have started a thread, if he was just trying to get on other people's nerves. 

1 hour ago, nephili said:

Yes. Really cool. I'd love to find out I am descended from "angel" and human hybrids. An evolved human.

Not that I necessarily believe it either.

Makes me wonder at that. Even though it's a fiction, remembering a scene from the movie of "The Da Vince Code" and that one of the protagonists happened to be a descendant of Jesus, could there be varying characters or people in the past, taken for religious individuals and that some of us could be their descendants? 

 

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
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4 hours ago, nephili said:

I know enough to be fascinated, but not enough to carry a discussion with the master debaters on this forum. ^_^

The Nephilim is personal to me. I had a psychic tell me I'm descended from the Nephilim. Not saying I believe it, it sure made me feel cool though B)

Master debaters. Lol. 

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15 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

Master debaters. Lol. 

Ah hem.... Need a hand? Lol

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Our bodies are composed of atoms forged in the heart of exploded stars--half from other galaxies. The Universe isn't just out there. We are the Universe, come alive and aware of itself. That's pretty wonderful in itself, no fanciful and mystical speculation required.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:
Quote

 

That's cool that you don't have a problem with that. All power to ya my friend. :) 

But, I think it's understandable that not everyone has that thought process, and that they may find it a problem. (Of course, I have the same thoughts as you do when it becomes pushed). 

 

There are all kinds of personalities around. If you worry about all of them then you would not post at all. These places are for debate and discussions and if someone's hide is not thick enough, then they should not be here. That includes you and I.

Quote

And I'm saying this with a little humor in it, but this could get tricky for me and my belief. What if my 'defensive proselyting' is just as needed to an 'approached proselyting'? ;)  

It is. If you don't have what it takes to back up what you initially put, then you should not have said it.

Quote

Serious though, maybe it's not just something to look at someone with a closed mind, I think. What if someone thought of you that way, with their version of proselyting? (which, of course, if it's not mentioned, how would you know? ;)  :o  :tu:  ) Would this be a way of jumping to conclusions with a pre-judged mind? 

All of us have biases and likely pre-judged an issue before commenting. All should be open minded enough that if something intelligent is said, even if against ones argument, it should be accepted and the bias reduced. I don't know about you but in a real sense, I debate in the hopes of losing so that I might learn something new. If I win a debate, the other guy is the real winner as I have learned nothing and he has learned something new.

 

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But, I disagree with this very much. Should obligations be placed on me, from an outside source?

I do not think that can be done. I can, for instance, remind you that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing, but I cannot force you to accept what I think is a responsibility we all have to fight evil.

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Should I be obligated to preach, if it's not God I have found a way to, but something else, (which I believe my belief to be)? Would you be open to be proselytized too of that? 

You are not obliged, unless you think that that is what you should be doing. If something proved itself valuable to you, then I would think that you would want to share it with others. That is following the Golden Rule to me as I definitely want to know about valuable things. 

Quote

I don't know if this is my belief or my conscience, but I feel someone should not be burden to think they have the right of way for others. I just don't see the logic in it. 

We humans are all close to the same blueprint. If something is of value to you, it should be valuable to others. Especially in cases where they might be following a less valuable way. That to me is how one shows his love for his fellow man. It is even in the few scriptures I find wisdom in.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

 

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How do you know, that is the case?

I go with what I believe and know, and if wrong, it is even more important that I find out. If I remained silent, I will either be allowing someone else to follow poor moral tenets or allowing myself to because I did not test my idea. See the quite above.

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And how is it, that anyone can feel they can judge that others are following poor moral tenets, whether what ever belief they have?

We judge a zillion things all day long. Why not judge morals?

You follow some type of moral code that you have judged to be good, I hope, and that would mean that you have judged other moral codes that you could have chosen as less moral than the one you follow.

Quote

It's kind of like how some have made me feel wrong for being a lefty. Some feel that is evil, but seriously, no, it's not. It's just writing with the opposite hand. 

Every such encounter where there is a conflict of ideas is an opportunity for you to correct foolish thinking. It is a chore but if you do not correct those who need it, and all people follow your reluctance, then how would society ever progress. Take that thinking to our beginnings and if no one corrected anyone, we would still be in the trees.

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And what of the Atheists? They don't see any gods exist. Should they be preached to against evil gods?

Absolutely. I point out to atheists all the time that if they do not fight against the evils that religions bring to society, then they are not doing their duty to society. Their children and wives, if they be males, are not immune from the homophobia and misogyny that is rampant today, mostly due to the religious.

Regards

DL 

 

Edited by Greatest I am

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4 hours ago, nephili said:

Yes. Really cool. I'd love to find out I am descended from "angel" and human hybrids. An evolved human.

Not that I necessarily believe it either.

Good.

Gnostic Christians have a lot of the supernatural in our myths but we hold no supernatural belief. We respect our minds too much to allow them to go into intellectual or moral dissonance. That would be way to close to being Christian or Muslim.

 

Regards

DL

 

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