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XenoFish

Hypothetical Discussion: Telekinesis

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taniwha

P.s it is food for thought so please don't shoot the messenger :)

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Tonite T
14 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

You are making many claims.  Please supply cites.

An article from a newspaper. Another participant also read about it somewhere. I am trying to find the article.

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Rlyeh
14 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I kind of think of it as the psyche is on overload, and something's gotta give. That's when stuff gets interesting. And you can manifest all kinds of weirdness. 

That's usually a mental break down.

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Rlyeh
14 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I'm not sure what you want. No backing you say?? IMO; There is now enough quantum physics and psychic experiments that tell us consciousness effects reality in ways that doesn't make sense in materialistic paradigm for my satisfaction. 

 

Quantum physics itself doesn't deal with consciousness, I guess that's where the "psychic experiments" come in? 

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Rlyeh
7 hours ago, taniwha said:

That's talking about measurement having effects on the experiments, not the mind. Who ever wrote that is using the fringe von Neumann–Wigner explanation, typically peddled by quantum mystics and psychics.

Edited by Rlyeh
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papageorge1
1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

Quantum physics itself doesn't deal with consciousness, I guess that's where the "psychic experiments" come in? 

I understand that in quantum physics the observation by a conscious entity collapses a wave function of potentialities down to a single  point; as shown by the Double-Slit Experiments and other observations. Hence I was saying consciousness does effect reality as shown by Quantum Physics. 

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Rlyeh
36 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I understand that in quantum physics the observation by a conscious entity collapses a wave function of potentialities down to a single  point; as shown by the Double-Slit Experiments and other observations. Hence I was saying consciousness does effect reality as shown by Quantum Physics. 

I'm aware of no experiment showing consciousness doing any such thing. Every experiment has equipment interacting with the particles, what does adding such magical thinking to the mix achieve?

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GlitterRose
2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

That's usually a mental break down.

Well, I didn't say it was necessarily a positive thing. 

IMO, it's an indicator that something's wrong. 

Too many stressors...time to take a step back and get in balance. 

Edited by ChaosRose

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Wes4747

Schrodinger?

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papageorge1

 

19 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

I'm aware of no experiment showing consciousness doing any such thing. Every experiment has equipment interacting with the particles, what does adding such magical thinking to the mix achieve?

The camera in the Double-Slit experiment is a passive device and has no physical effect on the photons. Why should it matter any more than a rock sitting there? The answer seems to be because a conscious entity looks at what the camera is showing and must see only one reality. The camera seems to be just an intermediary device that allows consciousness to observe something too small for its physical senses to perceive.

Edited by papageorge1
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XenoFish

Regardless of the double slit experiment, it doesn't say that thinking about the rock moving will make it levitate across a room. We are discussing thought having a causal effect on objects without taking physical action. If I think about a door closing, it does not close on its own.

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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

Regardless of the double slit experiment, it doesn't say that thinking about the rock moving will make it levitate across a room. We are discussing thought having a causal effect on objects without taking physical action. If I think about a door closing, it does not close on its own.

I agree that we should look at them as two different subjects at this point. I think PK more involves the movement of energy not detectable with three-dimension physical senses and instruments. I have not been trying to link Quantum Physics with PK. The only link is that they both seem to show conscious can effect reality in a way counter-intuitive to a materialist worldview.

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XenoFish

I think you're wrong. If an object can be moved telekinetically then there has to be a detectable force acting on it. The only thing I can even consider is magnet fields, but our own emf is too weak to do anything.

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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

If an object can be moved telekinetically then there has to be a detectable force acting on it.

There has to be a force, yes. But why does it 'have' to be detectable at this time by our three-dimensional physical senses and instruments?

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XenoFish
5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

There has to be a force, yes. But why does it 'have' to be detectable at this time by our three-dimensional physical senses and instruments?

Because it would validate claims of psychokinesis.

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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

Because it would validate claims of psychokinesis.

At this time PK is beyond science. Observation precedes understanding often in science. Come back in a hundred years:mellow:

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seeder

Telekinesis for everyone. Yes you too can learn the techniques demonstrated here and then impress your friends!

 

 

 

 

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Wes4747

I think for the scientific community to recognise the phenomena, one case of 100% verifiable, un-debunkable, repeatable evidence would have to surface from someone who happened naturally upon pk and chose to become a lab rat..

That said, if in my journey i discover the ability lied within myself, i doubt i would have the desire to let anyone else know i had the ability.

Would anyone who had devoted their life to quieting the mind, self discovery and observation be interested In becoming a lab rat? Or even the offer of a million cash?

I doubt it... What could motivate such a soul to share with anyone except the initiate at such time the pupil stumbled across the same experience?

To endorse is faithful, so would be the denial of such phenomena. To think we have the ability to measure every occurrence in the universe at this moment is lunacy.

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papageorge1
51 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

I think for the scientific community to recognise the phenomena, one case of 100% verifiable, un-debunkable, repeatable evidence would have to surface from someone who happened naturally upon pk and chose to become a lab rat.

I just want to comment on this part. I have come to believe there is no such thing as 'un-debunkable' on tests that involve human subjects, experimenters and skeptic commentators as that is a judgment. I have seen it before with the most careful experiments that gave positive results. General acceptance will come one person at a time. 

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Rlyeh
10 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

 

The camera in the Double-Slit experiment is a passive device and has no physical effect on the photons. Why should it matter any more than a rock sitting there? The answer seems to be because a conscious entity looks at what the camera is showing and must see only one reality. The camera seems to be just an intermediary device that allows consciousness to observe something too small for its physical senses to perceive.

If this device has detected a photon then the photon has already leaked information to the environment. It wouldn't matter if there is a rock.

That's what quantum mystics want the answer to be as it adds fuel to their magical thinking. This consciousness causes collapse proposes events chaining up waiting for a conscious being to observe them, completely idiotic.

Edited by Rlyeh

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ChrLzs
5 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

I think for the scientific community to recognise the phenomena, one case of 100% verifiable, un-debunkable, repeatable evidence would have to surface from someone who happened naturally upon pk and chose to become a lab rat..

That said, if in my journey i discover the ability lied within myself, i doubt i would have the desire to let anyone else know i had the ability.

Remember that we are talking about teleKINESIS ie the ability to move things...

5 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

Would anyone who had devoted their life to quieting the mind, self discovery and observation be interested In becoming a lab rat? Or even the offer of a million cash?

Why would that have to be the attributes of the sort of person who managed to move things with their mind?  

5 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

I doubt it... What could motivate such a soul to share with anyone except the initiate at such time the pupil stumbled across the same experience?

To give a petty example, right now we have such advanced communications that we are seeing tragedies unfold in real time.  Surely if telekinesis existed you could then get a number of folks together, or even just all within line of sight, and they could focus their 'powers' on the problem, be it putting out a fire, lifting a car that had trapped a person beneath, pushing away the arm of someone about to shoot, catching someone who was falling, etc ad infinitum.  And that's just one small aspect of how you could harness the incredibly valuable ability to move/push/pull something without having to be touching it.  Our entire culture and society would be changed immeasurably.

As I've stated elsewhere, to not allow this ability to be tested and shared and developed, would be selfish to the point of immorality.  

5 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

To endorse is faithful, so would be the denial of such phenomena.

Sorry, you lost me there.

5 hours ago, Wes4747 said:

To think we have the ability to measure every occurrence in the universe at this moment is lunacy.

No-one is saying we can...  But at this point in time, no-one has ever demonstrated this ability in any meaningful way.  And without any observations to explain.... well, there either *is* nothing to explain, or may as well be..

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papageorge1
3 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

That's what quantum mystics want the answer to be as it adds fuel to their magical thinking. This consciousness causes collapse proposes events chaining up waiting for a conscious being to observe them, completely idiotic.

Why idiotic? Seems to be the case when a conscious observer through a passive camera has a different effect than a rock sitting there?

Do you deny quantum physics? If not, how do you understand the mystery of such things as the double-slit experiment?

 

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Wes4747
2 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

Remember that we are talking about teleKINESIS ie the ability to move things...

Why would that have to be the attributes of the sort of person who managed to move things with their mind?  

To give a petty example, right now we have such advanced communications that we are seeing tragedies unfold in real time.  Surely if telekinesis existed you could then get a number of folks together, or even just all within line of sight, and they could focus their 'powers' on the problem, be it putting out a fire, lifting a car that had trapped a person beneath, pushing away the arm of someone about to shoot, catching someone who was falling, etc ad infinitum.  And that's just one small aspect of how you could harness the incredibly valuable ability to move/push/pull something without having to be touching it.  Our entire culture and society would be changed immeasurably.

As I've stated elsewhere, to not allow this ability to be tested and shared and developed, would be selfish to the point of immorality.  

Sorry, you lost me there.

No-one is saying we can...  But at this point in time, no-one has ever demonstrated this ability in any meaningful way.  And without any observations to explain.... well, there either *is* nothing to explain, or may as well be..

How would it be selfish not to share? I dont see that.. Also, who can say a still and disciplined mind is not required to perform the ability?

Expanded- if one can believe in the existance of TK, i feel it would require faith at this time of no evidence.

But to say it is impossible would require faith as well. The benefit of a healthy, calm and developed mind would be well worth more than the ability of TK or the secular rewards invoked, were it found to be accessible through a path of humility and discipline.

I refuse to choose a side, wont endorse nor disclaim though i agree we have no evidence. Thats the only reason i postulate an example where TK could exist and not be proven.

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Rlyeh
50 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Why idiotic? Seems to be the case when a conscious observer through a passive camera has a different effect than a rock sitting there?

Because it's convoluted, unverifiable and a throw back to vitalism. Explain what this different effect is.

 

50 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Do you deny quantum physics? If not, how do you understand the mystery of such things as the double-slit experiment?

 

Have you paid attention to anything I've said? I'm rejecting your quantum quackery.

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Wes4747
15 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

That's talking about measurement having effects on the experiments, not the mind. Who ever wrote that is using the fringe von Neumann–Wigner explanation, typically peddled by quantum mystics and psychics.

Were "machines" actually altering by physical contact that which they were measuring?

And what is measurement if not a mental construct?

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