Literature vs Scripture

[Grandpa Greenman]

People often base their life philosophy on a book of scripture which maybe of unknown authorship or an old guy in a cave talking to spirits (angels).   People of faith sometimes hold it up as the truth and the only truth, but is it really?  Since the invention of printing millions of books have been printed and some I think are worthy of same attention people give to scripture. What book have you read unrelated to a religion, of known authorship that could provide inspiration, in the way scripture does for those who of religious faith? Why does it inspire?

For me it is Tolkien.  His books inspire my courage and understanding of what it takes to overcome adversity. The folly of the lust for riches and the material.   Most importantly he addresses in Middle Earth our need to protect the natural world from the greed and destruction of the industrial revolution.  

[XenoFish]

I've always like the work of the philosophers. As they've been able to better express many of my same views. Then again the Dresden Files has bits of wisdom.

 

[GlitterRose]

I really like this guy Lon Milo DuQuette. He's OTO royalty or something, but he's a funny, down-to-earth sort of guy. 

Anyway, he has this saying,"It's all in your head...you just have no idea how big your head is."

I've also been listening to some of Stephan Hoeller's lectures on Jung's Seven Sermons. Pretty good stuff. 

I liked Daimonic Reality by Patrick Harpur, as well. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

43 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

People often base their life philosophy on a book of scripture which maybe of unknown authorship or an old guy in a cave talking to spirits (angels).   People of faith sometimes hold it up as the truth and the only truth, but is it really?  Since the invention of printing millions of books have been printed and some I think are worthy of same attention people give to scripture. What book have you read unrelated to a religion, of known authorship that could provide inspiration, in the way scripture does for those who of religious faith? Why does it inspire?

For me it is Tolkien.  His books inspire my courage and understanding of what it takes to overcome adversity. The folly of the lust for riches and the material.   Most importantly he addresses in Middle Earth our need to protect the natural world from the greed and destruction of the industrial revolution.  

Ohhhhhhh cool!!!!    You guys actually did the thread. I find this awesome!!!!       

You know, (and I have mentioned this before) I have read ( and need to real more still ((so many books, so little time)) yet) lots of the Native American historic fiction novels by W. Michael Gear  and his wife, Kathleen ONeal Gear.  I love them. Though, I feel bad that I can't remember exactly which book it was, but there was one where the characters are around a campfire at night. They got to discussing about whether the souls go into a linear line of existing in various bodies through out time, or that it's not linear at all, and what if it's just one soul existing in all of the bodies through out a non-linear afterlife situation. That made me think. (I also used that passage as a sig somewhere. I think on another message board though.) But, it made me look at everyone else differently, probably in the most compassionate way I could have ever gotten. It made me think, that what if you all are me, and I'm you!!!!. It made me think about treating others differently. 

 

[XenoFish]

We all have a philosophy on life, some hold their's more true than others for some reason. I consider my point of view a bit more fluid. Sure the same basic way of seeing things shall always be there but it is not the absolute truth, just a subjective filter. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

42 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

We all have a philosophy on life, some hold their's more true than others for some reason. I consider my point of view a bit more fluid. Sure the same basic way of seeing things shall always be there but it is not the absolute truth, just a subjective filter. 

I have often thought, or reflect, isn't that with everybody?

Maybe, that's why there are so many fiction books, novels, that have such a philosophical impact on so many people. There is something that is touched upon in the story, that we identify with and it brings us in. 

As an almost career bookseller, and an avid reader, I feel I am attracted to characters, characterizations, and thus see it through certain eyes at the public. 

If I humor myself sometimes, I feel our lives are a great story to tell.      

 

 

[NChSh]

Mostly anything by Robert Anton Wilson, for sure.

[Grandpa Greenman]

23 hours ago, XenoFish said:

We all have a philosophy on life, some hold their's more true than others for some reason. I consider my point of view a bit more fluid. Sure the same basic way of seeing things shall always be there but it is not the absolute truth, just a subjective filter. 

Life is an innertube trip down a river, just make sure the beer cooler is well tied.  Don't what to lose it in the rapids. 

My truth is subject to change as new information is uncovered. Everything changes, I  dance around the fire for as long as I can, nothing is promised or given. Nature, my gods, my church, the forest. I like to keep it simple. 

 

[GlitterRose]

Maybe people need to start reading scripture as literature. We'd probably have a lot less problems. 

[Grandpa Greenman]

I must concur, Rose.  People take religion much too seriously.  

[eight bits]

Elizabeth Marshall Thomas

The Hidden Life of Dogs, but she's written many things about different kinds of animals, including human ones.

 

[SHaYap]

Too many to mention really ... if there's anything I hold close at hand is this little chapter by Carl Sagan from The Demon Haunted World ...
 

Quote

 

~

In a chapter titled “The Fine Art of Baloney Detection,” Sagan reflects on the many types of deception to which we’re susceptible — from psychics to religious zealotry to paid product endorsements by scientists, which he held in especially low regard, noting that they “betray contempt for the intelligence of their customers” and “introduce an insidious corruption of popular attitudes about scientific objectivity.”

~

 

• brainpickings link

 

~
 

As close to anything practically scriptural for me at least ...

 

...

[Mr Walker]

On 11/08/2017 at 11:18 PM, Grandpa Greenman said:

People often base their life philosophy on a book of scripture which maybe of unknown authorship or an old guy in a cave talking to spirits (angels).   People of faith sometimes hold it up as the truth and the only truth, but is it really?  Since the invention of printing millions of books have been printed and some I think are worthy of same attention people give to scripture. What book have you read unrelated to a religion, of known authorship that could provide inspiration, in the way scripture does for those who of religious faith? Why does it inspire?

For me it is Tolkien.  His books inspire my courage and understanding of what it takes to overcome adversity. The folly of the lust for riches and the material.   Most importantly he addresses in Middle Earth our need to protect the natural world from the greed and destruction of the industrial revolution.  

There are hundreds but i particularly like asimov whom i read as a young lad I think the way he encapsulated the 3 laws of robotics is a model for human ethics. I also like clarke's three laws and  how much sense the y make  heinlein's many books on the human propensity for conflict  9and also cordwainer smith)  Any author who exproplates the probable effects of unusual things on peole Like immortality ( woodrow wilson smith aka lazarus long) or a way of enhancing memory  to perfect it.   Authors who reflect on human relationships with others; with the environment, and with animals (from cats to dragons) 

I read tolkien very young  (like most of my family )  and probably didn't get a lot of the background from history which went into his writings  The great writers of the golden ages (first and second) shaped my ethics moralities and beliefs as powerfully as my parents did but luckily they were very similar., my father having been a great sci fi fan through the first golden age when he was young he provided me with a source of pulp magazines from the thirties and forties to read while i was  about 6-10 .  

i read  at least something from all these before starting high school  with the bolded ones being those with the greatest influence. By the time i finished high school i had read everyhing published by almost all those authors

 

• Isaac Asimov (1920-1992)
• Alfred Bester (1913-1987)
• James Blish (1921-1975)
• Nelson S. Bond (1908-2006)
• Leigh Brackett (1915-1978)
• Ray Bradbury (1920-2012)
• Fredric Brown (1906-1972)
• Bertram Chandler (1912-1984)
• Arthur C. Clarke (1917-2008)
• John Christopher (1922-2012)
• Hal Clement (1922-2003)
• L. Sprague de Camp (1907-2000)
• Lester del Rey (1915-1992)
• Robert A. Heinlein (1907-1988)
• L. Ron Hubbard (1911-1986)
• Henry Kuttner (1915-1958)
• Fritz Leiber (1910-1992)
• C. L. Moore (1911-1987)
• Frederik Pohl (1919-2013)
• Ross Rocklynne (1913-1988)
• Eric Frank Russell (1905-1978)
• Clifford D. Simak (1904-1988)
• E. E. "Doc" Smith (1890-1965)
• Theodore Sturgeon (1918-1985)
• William Tenn (1920-2010)
• A. E. van Vogt (1912-2000)
• Jack Vance (1916-2013)
• Jack Williamson (1908-2006)
• John Wyndham (1903-1969)

and in the later Golden Age (1947-1959):

• Arthur C. Clarke (1917-2008)
• Poul Anderson (1926-2001)
• Philip K. Dick (1928-1982)
• James Gunn (1923-)
• C. M. Kornbluth (1923-1958)
• Walter M. Miller, Jr. (1923-1996)
• Chad Oliver (1928-1993)

There arent many female authors here But as a pre teen and  teenager i especially enjoyed the many stories by andre norton  and later anne mcaffrey,   ursula leguin and the absolutely brilliant, marion zimmer bradley  Later i learned a lot from tanith lee, katherine kurtz, louise cooper, louise mcmaster bujold,   robin Hobb, Janny wurtz, the list goes on.

Maybe my all time favorite  female  author ( more fantasy than sci fi ) Margaret Weiss,  whose characters made me laugh and cry, with them , for decades.

Oh and then all those wonderful authors who basically write morality tales fritz leiber's, grey mouser and farfhd , Raymond feist's,  krondor tales,  Salvatores' drizzt  do'urden , david gemmell 's drenai tales, and others Also got to inlcude tracy hickman who, along with margaret weiss, wrote what i think was the best fantasy series ever written, the books making up the dragonlance series.  

Edited August 15, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

On 11/08/2017 at 11:22 PM, XenoFish said:

I've always like the work of the philosophers. As they've been able to better express many of my same views. Then again the Dresden Files has bits of wisdom.

 

Yup.  Reading 3 of his at the moment  (Just starting the one where he "dies" after finishing the previous book) and have to agree  Even the iron druid series has wisdoms 

[+Sherapy]

On 8/12/2017 at 4:02 PM, eight bits said:

Elizabeth Marshall Thomas

The Hidden Life of Dogs, but she's written many things about different kinds of animals, including human ones.

 

Have you read the new National Geographic Magazine August 2017.

"Inside Animal Minds"

Paul meet Zenny; Zenny meet Paul.

This little guy was a rescue who has a human family who absolutely adores him.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Sherapy

[Aquila King]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:48 AM, Grandpa Greenman said:

People of faith sometimes hold it up as the truth and the only truth, but is it really?

Herein lies the key difference between modern day 'religious' scriptures, and inspirational literature.

[Grandpa Greenman]

12 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Herein lies the key difference between modern day 'religious' scriptures, and inspirational literature.

Can you explain?  At one time, wouldn't religious scriptures be inspirational literature when it is first written.  Which comes first, the religion or the scripture? When most of the "modern day" scriptures like the Bible, Quran, etc... first came out, not many people had any access to literature.  They were dependent on authorities who could read to tell them what was written and interpret.  Until books and reading were common, the printed word was magic. Maybe the concept of scriptures is a holdover from when the written word held great power and mystery, unrelated to its content.     

[Aquila King]

30 minutes ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Can you explain?  At one time, wouldn't religious scriptures be inspirational literature when it is first written.  Which comes first, the religion or the scripture? When most of the "modern day" scriptures like the Bible, Quran, etc... first came out, not many people had any access to literature.  They were dependent on authorities who could read to tell them what was written and interpret.  Until books and reading were common, the printed word was magic. Maybe the concept of scriptures is a holdover from when the written word held great power and mystery, unrelated to its content.     

Sure, I'll explain, though my response is probably gonna sound rather unique...

I don't think ancient religious scriptures were intended to just be 'inspirational literature', such as our modern day literature. What they deemed as 'holy scripture' was deemed so because they literally believed it to be 'magical' as you suggested. However the 'magical' properties of such texts wasn't due to the scarcity of the written word due to the lack of a printing press, it was due to what the words in the scriptures themselves represent. The problem isn't what the scriptures say, the problem is that our modern-day interpretations of such scriptures are horribly wrong. And I know, most people will read that last sentence and say: "That's exactly why there're so many different religions and denominations today! Everyone thinks that they have the right interpretation of such scriptures, and everyone else's interpretation is wrong! You're perpetuating the paradigm!" And in some sense that's true, but in reality I think when we understand the true intention behind what ancient civilizations were trying to tell us through their scriptures, we can then begin to obtain a greater understanding that they are all essentially telling us the same thing.

Holy scriptures are not just 'inspirational literature', nor are they meant to be taken as literal actual facts, nor are they to be taken as parables. Holy scriptures are all Astro-Theological. Meaning: they are all telling us a story of Astrology through anthropomorphized story and character renderings of astrological events.

This is why there are 40+ religious figures around the globe that all seem to have the same general descriptions as Jesus Christ. Because they are all telling the same story. It's the story of the cycle of the Sun.

Now, since this is a rather complicated topic that would require a significant amount of explaining (and I really don't feel like typing that much atm), I'mma take the lazy way out and link you to a site that quickly explains everything in a synopsized manner and then leave the rest for you to research on your own: https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/atlantean_conspiracy/atlantean_conspiracy44.htm

My point is simply this: Ancient scriptures are more than just inspirational literature like we have today, however at the same time they are not conflicting accounts of actual people/places/events that are meant to be taken literally either. They are Astrological texts that the ancients believed holy because they lived by Astrology.

Of course you're welcome to disagree with me, I'm simply explaining things from my own perspective.

 

P.S. - In Post #453, 3rd post on the page in the link below, I explain my position on religion/religious scripture in general:

 

[Grandpa Greenman]

Thanks Aquila King, for your explanation.  When I read the Mabinogion, for a Pagan class, it didn't take me long to figure the stories were mostly about marking astrological  time.  You got to know this if you want to know when to plant and harvest in agricultural societies.  They made stories about the stars as a memory aid. I see that in other religions like ancient Egyptian, Greek, aboriginal religions, etc.... , but not so much in the Abrahamic religions.  They seem more like urban religions where the importance is learning to live in cities with a large population.   When the Torah was being finalized, the "prophets" writing it were living in excel in Persia. So my impression is, they were trying to write a history for their people who at the time were becoming rather urbanized. Whether not the history was true was not that important, what they wanted was legitimacy as a people.   They took a lot of ideas from the people around them, as the Epic of Gilgamesh, The Code of Hammurabi.   

[eight bits]

Sheri!

What a great picture of Zenny. Thank you. Say hi to him from me.

Thanks also for the pointer to the National Geographic article. I'll check it out.

[Podo]

Richard A. Knaak's Kaz the Minotaur novel, as well as his Minotaur Wars trilogy. The minotaurs are a warlike and savage species, but not because they're unintelligent. Their culture is based around Strength in all forms: strength of body, strength of mind, and strength of spirit. A minotaur ruler needs to defeat opponents in tests of physical might, but also in tests of faith (the gods are objectively real in these stories) and in tests of intelligence and wits. The most ruthless rise to the top of the hierarchy, but the most ruthless are also the most intelligent, which allows for cunning, dangerous leaders. The philosophy of their civilisation always resonated with me.

Another series is The Neanderthal Parallax, by Robert J. Sawyer. The series explores bias in a very roundabout way, as two versions of Earth come into contact with each other after a quantum computing anomaly; one version of Earth is ours, while the other version is one where neanderthalls became the primary human species. The focus of the novels are cultural discussions between neanderthals and gliksins (the neanderthall word for homo sapiens sapiens). Whether you end up agreeing with the neanderthall culture or the gliksin culture, the novels examine bias and culture in a way that I've never seen examined in literature before.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:22 AM, Sherapy said:

Have you read the new National Geographic Magazine August 2017.

"Inside Animal Minds"

Paul meet Zenny; Zenny meet Paul.

This little guy was a rescue who has a human family who absolutely adores him.

That particular issue is a seller!!! I was going through it with someone, and it was spectacular how we were inspired and awed by the pictures and what was said.  

 

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

That particular issue is a seller!!! I was going through it with someone, and it was spectacular how we were inspired and awed by the pictures and what was said.  

 

I love it!  Thanks for your input.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

On 31/08/2017 at 7:54 AM, Podo said:

Richard A. Knaak's Kaz the Minotaur novel, as well as his Minotaur Wars trilogy. The minotaurs are a warlike and savage species, but not because they're unintelligent. Their culture is based around Strength in all forms: strength of body, strength of mind, and strength of spirit. A minotaur ruler needs to defeat opponents in tests of physical might, but also in tests of faith (the gods are objectively real in these stories) and in tests of intelligence and wits. The most ruthless rise to the top of the hierarchy, but the most ruthless are also the most intelligent, which allows for cunning, dangerous leaders. The philosophy of their civilisation always resonated with me.

Another series is The Neanderthal Parallax, by Robert J. Sawyer. The series explores bias in a very roundabout way, as two versions of Earth come into contact with each other after a quantum computing anomaly; one version of Earth is ours, while the other version is one where neanderthalls became the primary human species. The focus of the novels are cultural discussions between neanderthals and gliksins (the neanderthall word for homo sapiens sapiens). Whether you end up agreeing with the neanderthall culture or the gliksin culture, the novels examine bias and culture in a way that I've never seen examined in literature before.

One of the things i have always loved about science fiction and fantasy is how it allows us to explore  questions like this. eg construct a society based on strength and see what happens to all its members   I enjoyed Knaak's books but haven't read  Sawyers.

Ps did kaz spin off into some other stories from the forgotten realms publishers or wizards of the coast?   Ah its ok i remember. It was the dragonlance world. He appeared in a number of stories in that universe. I remember him in "the legend of Huma." i've got a feeling Tasslehoff Burfoot was also involved somehow. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:33 AM, XenoFish said:

We all have a philosophy on life, some hold their's more true than others for some reason. I consider my point of view a bit more fluid. Sure the same basic way of seeing things shall always be there but it is not the absolute truth, just a subjective filter. 

I love it "subjective filter".