Mr Walker Posted August 13, 2017 #76 Share Posted August 13, 2017 17 hours ago, Susanc241 said: I have never understood that if god is the benevolent force he is purported to be, and he loves all mankind, and we are his creation, why does he continue to let those who have no faith continue on their merry way? I know all about the 'free will' stuff but that is just a cop out, IMO. Why does He allow some of his creation to not have the 'faith gene' and leave them to head for the 'eternal damnation'? The answer I have come to is that He doesn't exist - certainly not in the way the traditional Judaic/Christian bible depicts. I have always been interested in religion and have considered it a lot over my seven decades on this Earth. My conclusion is that is all man made and myth and fairytale - initially a way to maintain power and wealth (priesthood/shamans) control the masses and/or explain that which they couldn't explain through scientific means all those years ago. BECAUSE he loves us, he lets us set our own course. He does provide an education in the books of different religions and an abilty to know what is right and wrong etc., but in loving us, love compels him to allow us freedom. Do you want to be a robot who is allowed no choices no abilty to learn form mistakes no abilty to grow and improve . Do you WANT to never be able to take credit for the good things you do or accept blame for the bad things If you could have a child who would do everything you told it to, for its entire life, and could either not think about evil or ever do evi,l would you go ahead and have such a child ? Religion is about the freedom of the individual. Faith and belief set us free from chaos from fear and from things like material attachments and other drivers. It is an evolved survival aspect of human cognition. Yes it can be used for control, but any individual has a mind and can think Thus the y can construct their own beliefs and faiths to suit them and empower them You are only a sheep if you choose to be one. . it seems commonality of faith and belief was an essential tool in civilization, allowing peole who were not otherwise connected by family tribe or clan to live together in harmony, because of a commonality of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 13, 2017 #77 Share Posted August 13, 2017 10 hours ago, XenoFish said: If I assume god is real then. It is god that gave my wife the genetics that allowed her to have cancer. It is god that created the doctors who treat my wife for her cancer. It is god who created the cancer in the first place. It is god that created all things, good and evil. Then it is not a god of love, not a god of hate. It is a god of creation and we are just experiments in the lab. No love, no hate, just a lab rat. If I am to assume that god does not exist, then all these things are simply life and the nature of how things work. No matter how much I may plead with nature, it will not hear my call nor answer my prayers. It will do what it has always done regardless of my feelings. That is one model of god, It is not a realistic or even probable one Evolution caused the genetic anomalies which gave your wife cancer (Possibly contributed to by different environmental factors) What a god can do, or even a faith in a god, is to increase her chances of remission/survival and to give her courage strength and hope. It can alter how she perceives and thus thinks about the nature of life and death. A person who was in your position but believed in god would have extra mechanisms and ability to cope, both with your wife's suffering and if it should happen, her death. God did not create cancer, indeed god did not create mankind or the earth God is NOT omniscient or omnipotent No real being can ever be those things. BUT god is real and powerful and both his reality and simple belief in him can make a difference in anyone's life. Your perception of nature exists within your mind. If you believed that nature listened to you and reacted to you, then it would (at east from your perception and from within your mind (and this is what truly makes a difference for any self are being .Not what is, but how we interpret that which is. ) . Remember placebos such as belief and faith cause physical alterations in human brain and body physiologies which DO affect physical outcomes. PS i care about your wife and her outcome, and even your own suffering and grief But it is pointless to say this. If i was a friend in real life I'd be offering practical help and and support .What i feel is( to you) irrelevant. It is how you and your wife feel and cope with the experience which matters. I wish you courage and the best possible outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted August 13, 2017 #78 Share Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: Another might assume that god did indeed give you, not just life, but every human skill and abilty required for your survival and success. It is understandable that we take credit for our skills and resiliencies etc but it is only one perspective. Actually i am not sure if i understand exactly what you are saying here Do you feel god should supply your every need, or do you consider that he has, by giving you the skills to meet them? I did make a statement in post #61 and have said in the past that everything is god including us. I do not see god as a being in the sense of a physical entity, we have intellect and give the world around us meaning, without us there is no potential or realizing potential, everything yet for us to discover already exists all we do is realize and give meaning to it. I am complete, now that doesn't mean perfect but it does mean that when confronted with the unknown that I came equipped with the strength, tools and ability to face those challenges. And yes there are times that I didn't know that that part of me was there until I was put in the position to discover them. jmccr8 Edited August 13, 2017 by jmccr8 structure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted August 13, 2017 #79 Share Posted August 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Mr Walker said: My question was rather that,without gods influence on joan (real or in the mind) could joan have inspired the french as she did ? MAny argue that we dont need god to be all we can be, but would joan ever have been all she could be without god in her mind and heart? I wasn't there so what influence that she may of had and the means by which she was motivated is an unknown and likely the author of her story had a bias so the accuracy of what transpired is an unknown as well. What is known is that she had an affect on a large group of people who later turned on her and killed her. I doubt that there was any direct influence by god other than her faith in what she was doing, like I said before they were both Christian nations who prayed to the same god and I don't see god being that political in mans petty wars. It's a story from the pages of history that really doesn't make much difference in the long run. jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 13, 2017 #80 Share Posted August 13, 2017 29 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: I did make a statement in post #61 and have said in the past that everything is god including us. I do not see god as a being in the sense of a physical entity, we have intellect and give the world around us meaning, without us there is no potential or realizing potential, everything yet for us to discover already exists all we do is realize and give meaning to it. I am complete, now that doesn't mean perfect but it does mean that when confronted with the unknown that I came equipped with the strength, tools and ability to face those challenges. And yes there are times that I didn't know that that part of me was there until I was put in the position to discover them. jmccr8 I have no disagreement with any of this . I have a different additional experience with god but your analysis makes perfect sense given your own experience. it matches my own, up to the point where an independent god form physically materialised in my life. To me god exists with me, and i a god but also outside of me and god is me (in part) . We thus interconnect in both mind and body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 13, 2017 #81 Share Posted August 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: I wasn't there so what influence that she may of had and the means by which she was motivated is an unknown and likely the author of her story had a bias so the accuracy of what transpired is an unknown as well. What is known is that she had an affect on a large group of people who later turned on her and killed her. I doubt that there was any direct influence by god other than her faith in what she was doing, like I said before they were both Christian nations who prayed to the same god and I don't see god being that political in mans petty wars. It's a story from the pages of history that really doesn't make much difference in the long run. jmccr8 History always makes a difference It constructs the time we think of as the present. Without joan and her belief in god, France might have become part of Britain, as it was for a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted August 13, 2017 #82 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Would ....... (insert Marxist revolutionary hero of your choice here ) ....... have done what he did without Marx ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted August 13, 2017 #83 Share Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Mr Walker said: History always makes a difference It constructs the time we think of as the present. Without joan and her belief in god, France might have become part of Britain, as it was for a long time I fail to see your point as to how a different outcome in that war would affect me in this time.The country I live in and my ancestral land are conquered lands, British colonies just like Australia, the only difference that I can see is that instead of french fries we would call them chips. Now if later wars like the first or second WW had a different outcome then yes I could see how things might be different. jmccr8 Edited August 13, 2017 by jmccr8 spelling 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nuclear Wessel Posted August 13, 2017 #84 Share Posted August 13, 2017 Spoiler: "He" never did because "He" almost certainly never existed/doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted August 14, 2017 #85 Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said: Spoiler: "He" never did because "He" almost certainly never existed/doesn't exist. Indeed, you and I are creating Him together as we discover Him together. And vice versa. As we enter a new age of art and the destruction of boredom. Edited August 14, 2017 by Be.cause Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susanc241 Posted August 14, 2017 #86 Share Posted August 14, 2017 On 13/08/2017 at 2:22 AM, Mr Walker said: BECAUSE he loves us, he lets us set our own course. He does provide an education in the books of different religions and an abilty to know what is right and wrong etc., but in loving us, love compels him to allow us freedom. Do you want to be a robot who is allowed no choices no abilty to learn form mistakes no abilty to grow and improve . Do you WANT to never be able to take credit for the good things you do or accept blame for the bad things If you could have a child who would do everything you told it to, for its entire life, and could either not think about evil or ever do evi,l would you go ahead and have such a child ? Religion is about the freedom of the individual. Faith and belief set us free from chaos from fear and from things like material attachments and other drivers. It is an evolved survival aspect of human cognition. Yes it can be used for control, but any individual has a mind and can think Thus the y can construct their own beliefs and faiths to suit them and empower them You are only a sheep if you choose to be one. . it seems commonality of faith and belief was an essential tool in civilization, allowing peole who were not otherwise connected by family tribe or clan to live together in harmony, because of a commonality of belief. Tosh! People of faith make mistakes and learn from them. Makes no difference in that respect whether you have faith or not. 'Its an evolved survival aspect of human cognition'. EVOLVED? Not God given then from the start? Make your mind up. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted August 14, 2017 #87 Share Posted August 14, 2017 'Apparently some people never make a mistake ... ones that have developed their 'superpowers' . 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 14, 2017 #88 Share Posted August 14, 2017 24 minutes ago, Susanc241 said: Tosh! People of faith make mistakes and learn from them. Makes no difference in that respect whether you have faith or not. 'Its an evolved survival aspect of human cognition'. EVOLVED? Not God given then from the start? Make your mind up. A person compelled to be good CANNOT make mistakes, and thus cannot learn, or grow, or evolve, or improve They have no choice. Either the y cannot even think evil thoughts, or the y can think them, but are stopped from acting on them And so, humans are IMPERFECT, capable of good and evil, but able to know the difference, and freely choose which path to take. it is perfectly possible for a human being to NEVER consciously do a harmful thing. Religion is based on a basic and early form of human cognition, present in babies before they learn to speak Our minds see things we cannot explain and create reasons for their existence despite having no knowledge. This is a survival mechanism designed to allow us to cope with the unknown and to respond positively to threats and challenges Faith and belief also actually alter both brain chemistry and the body's physiological responses to; promote healing, reduce pain and reduce anxiety depression and stress. Again this is an evolved connection between the human mind and our body's needs. I am an evolutionist not a creationist. God itself is an evolved ancient being (or race of beings. Or ancient artificial artefact /artificial intelligence ) who, like us, evolved, grew, learned, made mistakes, and developed wisdom and power, over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 14, 2017 #89 Share Posted August 14, 2017 14 hours ago, jmccr8 said: I fail to see your point as to how a different outcome in that war would affect me in this time.The country I live in and my ancestral land are conquered lands, British colonies just like Australia, the only difference that I can see is that instead of french fries we would call them chips. Now if later wars like the first or second WW had a different outcome then yes I could see how things might be different. jmccr8 Every little change has an effect MY ancestors came with william the conqueror to england in 1066, and so i am in part of british descent. If they had stayed in france then i would never have existed and certainly even if i did would not be australian Britain may NOT have developed the economic power to retain its colonies if france had won the napoleonic wars, for example. If britain had totally defeated france in the 100 years war then the period of colonisation much later would certainly have been different. WW! and WW2 might never have occurred if one power had had a total military strength over all others near the end of the 19th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted August 14, 2017 #90 Share Posted August 14, 2017 19 hours ago, jmccr8 said: I fail to see your point as to how a different outcome in that war would affect me in this time.The country I live in and my ancestral land are conquered lands, British colonies just like Australia, the only difference that I can see is that instead of french fries we would call them chips. Now if later wars like the first or second WW had a different outcome then yes I could see how things might be different. jmccr8 I often have seen, (and read) a lot of historical fiction, (and in tv shows and film) when a time traveler does one little thing, and then history has changed. In which I find fascinating. And a lot of it tends to come from the world wars. One book, I have been reading, "In the Company of the Dead" by David Kowalski, has the effect starting back on the Titanic.( and in which, with the change of life status, WW1 and WW2 and such turned out differently and thus it's effect on the rest of the world. ) In which I feel, is around the time of World War 1. Though, I wonder how far back a time travel paradox would effect today. I would think, the further back, the most likely the passage of time still flows back to what it would have normally have occurred. But, of course, these are historical fictions we are talking about. (or I am talking about. ) Purely speculative. Who knows what one little thing could have the same properties in it, if a different move happened. *shrugs* And the way I see it, whose to say that one little aspect of a change would take off as a popular thing, or ignored. 6 hours ago, Susanc241 said: Tosh! People of faith make mistakes and learn from them. Makes no difference in that respect whether you have faith or not. 'Its an evolved survival aspect of human cognition'. EVOLVED? Not God given then from the start? Make your mind up. I firmly believe that. (I usually think of spiritual as a guide and any paranormal aspect to it, on a subjective nature. Not always the same case by case. ) I have seen, and unfortunately personally experienced those with various religious outlooks, think they are doing good in their behavior and strong 'encouragements' toward others, and up making really bad 'mistakes' that are irreversible. One person's good, could be someone else's bad. 6 hours ago, back to earth said: 'Apparently some people never make a mistake ... ones that have developed their 'superpowers' . Frankly, I have 'reflected' on seeing that 'super powers' are not immune to being blunders. In fact, I think they tend to encourage to make super powerful mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 14, 2017 #91 Share Posted August 14, 2017 On 13/08/2017 at 4:41 PM, back to earth said: Would ....... (insert Marxist revolutionary hero of your choice here ) ....... have done what he did without Marx ? No That would be impossible. He wouldn't even exist as a marxist revolutionary if marx had not existed Of course he could still have been a revolutionary of some sort, somewhere, but not a marxist one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 14, 2017 #92 Share Posted August 14, 2017 Clearly some people haven't got a clue what i am talking about with goodness or mistakes. A person whose behaviour is compelled ie they cant make a rational free choice about how to behave can't make a mistake ,cant do good, and cant do bad . A programmed robot can't make a mistake or do good or do bad . ONly the programmer can. A person without free will and choice would be like a robot or a bee. Nothing they did would be a mistake, or good or bad, because they were not making any conscious choice at all, and unless you make a conscious choice, you can't make an error or a mistake in your choice. . A perfectly programmed human being without free willed choice would never even get run down by a car while crossing a road let alone do evil But then they y would not be human, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoIverine Posted August 14, 2017 #93 Share Posted August 14, 2017 On 8/11/2017 at 7:41 PM, Kismit said: I'm not quite sure these recent threads are anymore than religion bashing? As part of Terms of Service here at UM. We require that all posters show respect for the beliefs of others. A link to these Terms of Service aka the Rules. Can be found at the bottom of every page. Religious intolerance, nothing new here, akin to other forms of intolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted August 14, 2017 #94 Share Posted August 14, 2017 On 8/11/2017 at 1:50 PM, Ozymandias said: When was the last time God stuck his nose into human affairs? I do not mean interfering in one person's or a couple of people's life but did something that effected all humanity. Why did he bother? Why hasn't he bothered since? That's a big ol' "never," friendo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted August 15, 2017 #95 Share Posted August 15, 2017 On 8/12/2017 at 1:22 AM, DieChecker said: That is a Human issue. If God did miraculously drop food on those people, would He be saving them, or just extending their grief. God would have to rebuild their societies, their nations, their cultures. He could do that, but doing so would ruin any illusions of free will those people have. Anyway, I've read it is closer to 10 million. 98% of those who are starving are in the developing countries. Mostly in South Asia and Africa. Where their nations basically allow it to happen. Starvation is usually due to poverty, which is usually due to their nations leadership. There is evil in the world, and God will not fix it all. What good is your "God" if he does nothing to help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted August 16, 2017 #96 Share Posted August 16, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Mystic Crusader said: What good is your "God" if he does nothing to help? How do you know He does nothing? I said He does things every day. It is simply that the things He does appear to be random, or "fated", events. If God had Joe Shmoe say something, how can we tell if it was Joe, or it was God? Same thing... If God has Joe do something that saves a thousand people, how can you prove if it was or was not God? God intervenes every day. Question to everyone: Can God be God without saving everyone? Edited August 16, 2017 by DieChecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted August 16, 2017 #97 Share Posted August 16, 2017 6 hours ago, DieChecker said: I said He does things every day. It is simply that the things He does appear to be random, or "fated", events. I call this coincidence and confirmation bias. 6 hours ago, DieChecker said: Question to everyone: Can God be God without saving everyone? An indifferent god. One that takes no vested interest in the whole of humanity. Never sent down messengers. Never inspired "divine words" and never desired worship. 6 hours ago, DieChecker said: God intervenes every day That is at most subjective. It's the filter though which you perceive things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartikg Posted August 16, 2017 #98 Share Posted August 16, 2017 On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 6:52 AM, Mr Walker said: BECAUSE he loves us, he lets us set our own course. He does provide an education in the books of dif, ferent religions and an abilty to know what is right and wrong etc., but in loving us, love compels him to allow us freedom. Do you want to be a robot who is allowed no choices no abilty to learn form mistakes no abilty to grow and improve . Do you WANT to never be able to take credit for the good things you do or accept blame for the bad things If you could have a child who would do everything you told it to, for its entire life, and could either not think about evil or ever do evi,l would you go ahead and have such a child ? Religion is about the freedom of the individual. Faith and belief set us free from chaos from fear and from things like material attachments and other drivers. It is an evolved survival aspect of human cognition. Yes it can be used for control, but any individual has a mind and can think Thus the y can construct their own beliefs and faiths to suit them and empower them You are only a sheep if you choose to be one. . it seems commonality of faith and belief was an essential tool in civilization, allowing peole who were not otherwise connected by family tribe or clan to live together in harmony, because of a commonality of belief. Intresting line of thoughts regarding freedom love and God , would you feel comfortable if we let loose completely AI artificial intelligence free in future, free as in completely free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted August 16, 2017 #99 Share Posted August 16, 2017 2 hours ago, kartikg said: Intresting line of thoughts regarding freedom love and God , would you feel comfortable if we let loose completely AI artificial intelligence free in future, free as in completely free. If you mean an AI that thinks just like us humans, than yes I'd be very happy. Another equal intelligence would be good for us. I would also like to see us advance the evolution of some animals so they develop human level self awareness and cognitive ability. There is some danger that an artificial intelligence might surpass human processing speed, but we could also enhance our own minds with biological and artificial enhancements like hormones, which increase memory and cognition, and plug in chips, for specialised skills and knowledge. If we build AIs with our level of self awareness, I think we have an ethical duty to ensure they have full free will. To do less would make us monsters and slavers. Any entity with human level self awreness is basically human, and deserves the same rights and responsibilities as a functioning adult human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted August 17, 2017 #100 Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) On 8/16/2017 at 3:14 AM, XenoFish said: I call this coincidence and confirmation bias. An indifferent god. One that takes no vested interest in the whole of humanity. Never sent down messengers. Never inspired "divine words" and never desired worship. That is at most subjective. It's the filter though which you perceive things. Meh... The whole point of the thread was people's opinions. Edited August 17, 2017 by DieChecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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