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Ozymandias

Last time God intervened in the World?

705 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't make that judgement and i don't see myself in those terms. i judge myself only against myself.   It is interesting that others have this perception of  comparative inferiority/superiority  maybe because the y were brought up to be competitive and to compare their achievements and lives with others.

I seek to be all that i can be, and do all that i ca do    My deepest opinion on this is that all humans are connected as one  not rivals or competitors but  part of a greater whole, and that i a an operating as part of that greater whole,

it is my job to contribute the most and the best that i can to that whole.   What others do and how the y see themselves is up to them  Of course there are some undeniable objective truths. A lot of habits attitudes and behaviours do harm to people and to the fabric of a society.    These should be  prevented and humans don't really have a right to harm themselves or others UNLESS the y bear the total emotional and financial cost for that  harm  

Some things are right because they are constructive and produce beneficial results Some things are bad because the y are destructive/harmful and cause   negative impacts. 

It is not that my ideas are walker centic.  It is that there  IS a certain ethical set of standards which is most productive and i choose to live by them. They are not MY standards but those of past philosophers and spiritual leaders   I think what happens is that others are really judging themselves when they read how i live, and comparing themselves to me. 

if you are a person who believes in comparative or relative moralities, and that every one has a right to live as they choose, then of course a lot of my views will upset and even anger you.  I see humans as social animals, who need their society to survive, and thus have a prior duty to behave in ways which protect and strengthen their community  If you wish to live entirely free then you MUST live alone.  Otherwise your desire for freedom of behaviour  impacts on the freedoms of others to behave as they wish to.  

hammer claw i don't know you well enough to  pass judgement on you or to rank you as inferior or superior to me, But even if i did know you well enough  i don't think  of people like that. I see all peole as equal but t hat some make more of their lives than others for many reasons. I dont see a judge as superior to the criminal in the dock  as a human being. although clearly one will have a far better life than the other  It would be the criminal i invited into our home, because he might have need of a friend or some help  in his life 

IMO it is yOU who is judging your self against the stories of my life and for some reason this is making you feel inferior   All I can say is don't   I don't know you, but you are human, and thus of equal worth, and value, to me and to anyone else.  

Actually, I hardly pay attention to or read them. It's when they're reposted,repeatedly by various,and sundry, outraged by something you said, that I take notice. I think you're probably a decent bloke, too, you just don't know when to think twice and say nothing.

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13 hours ago, third_eye said:

Sorry then ... I ain't buying and I'm sure I don't want any of it ... even if you're giving ...

~

Awww, not even, chocolate... Lol

How bout a pitch fork..

I have an assortment of colours to suit ya...?

Interested??    Lol..

You are a Master of words, I love it...

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59 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Ah but shearapy is incapable of believing the more unusual aspects of that autobiography.

Also, she is looking at  my life through her own eyes and perceptions,  which leads her into errors

  The classic example was in how she insisted that my parents were abusers because they used corporal punishment on us.

 She was judging through the experience of her own childhood and her own mother. which constructed a strongly held emotional view on ALL  corporal punishment of children 

My parents were absolute loving, and made great sacrifices for we children. They   never lost their temper, never  used hostile language, never put us down (and never gave false or undeserved praise  only genuine priase for hard won achievements) .  But they made and enforced rules of behaviour which we all knew and understood, and reinforced those behaviours through rewards and punishments.  It was not arbitrary, emotional, or hurtful,  but a negotiated and accepted (by all of us)  system of punishing behaviours not the child. and, in return,  we loved our parents and  honoured, respected, and valued them all the days of their lives. 

I was very hurt by sherapy calling my parents abusers, until i read about her own upbringing and her relationship with her own mother, and then i understood WHY she held that view of my parents, totally wrong though it was. 

Gee, Wally, you hurt people here, all the time, innocently expressing your honest opinion. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. No one appreciates being back-handed "for their own good." Even just verbally.

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11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

But... If God isn't violent, and never was, and does include what isn't good....

Then who is responsible for the evil/violence/death in the world? And is that being more powerful then, than God? Because otherwise couldn't God prevent the wrongs from happening?

I respect wanting God to be only goodness, but that is naivety given what the world seems to hand out almost every single day.

Not naïveté, Awareness..

The Evil, The System..

Rules, regulations, control, lies, confusion, all that is wrong, stems from systematic ruling....

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2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Ah but shearapy is incapable of believing the more unusual aspects of that autobiography.

Also, she is looking at  my life through her own eyes and perceptions,  which leads her into errors

  The classic example was in how she insisted that my parents were abusers because they used corporal punishment on us.

 She was judging through the experience of her own childhood and her own mother. which constructed a strongly held emotional view on ALL  corporal punishment of children 

My parents were absolute loving, and made great sacrifices for we children. They   never lost their temper, never  used hostile language, never put us down (and never gave false or undeserved praise  only genuine priase for hard won achievements) .  But they made and enforced rules of behaviour which we all knew and understood, and reinforced those behaviours through rewards and punishments.  It was not arbitrary, emotional, or hurtful,  but a negotiated and accepted (by all of us)  system of punishing behaviours not the child. and, in return,  we loved our parents and  honoured, respected, and valued them all the days of their lives. 

I was very hurt by sherapy calling my parents abusers, until i read about her own upbringing and her relationship with her own mother, and then i understood WHY she held that view of my parents, totally wrong though it was. 

Based on your autobiographical details of the childhood you shared and then recommending it as a superior method based on how "you turned out "being caned repeatedly till college age and many other things you posted about your life; I did conclude your childhood was abusive. 

But, you do not see it that way and in the end that is what matters to you as it should be. 

I have faced and transcended the abuse of my childhood and have gone on to live a life of love and fullness, I have raised 3 amazing men in non violence this is my legacy, not what you think as it should be. 

No offense, but it will be a cold day in hell that I will believe you are a man who actually does anything but give lip service to does no harm in his life while at the same time advocates corporal punishment on a precious child. Shame on you. 

I gave nothing more to say on the matter. Do not respond. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

Double post

Edited by Sherapy

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1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

It is true that the world is full of purposeless things happening to people, and it does seem like a cop out when people say, "We live in a fallen world". And then say that God should be able to fix things, and why would God allow such things to happen. 

I'm of the opinion that if we do assume God is real, then He has such a view of everything that what we see is only the millionth... the billionth... that He sees and so we can't understand the puzzle of the universe and Life, as He does. 

Just because we can't, with thirty seconds thought, come up with a reason why something was allowed to happen, doesn't mean it doesn't have a reason.

Have you never had to make a choice between something horrible, and something slightly less horrible? Yet, both are horrible. And  you had to make one of the horrible choices.

I know that would imply that God then is limited and unable to make everyone healthy, happy, safe, all the time. But that then feeds back into our having (The illusion?) of Free Will. 

So to eliminate pain, hardship, death... God would have to remove Free Will.

At least that's how I see it.

 Yes, at times  I have had to choose between worse and worst and I have chosen worst to have things turn out better than I even imagined. Or I have chosen worst out of compassion and discovered aspects of myself that I didn't know I had, and I have chosen worst knowing full well it was even gonna get worse and then deeply regretted wasting my life in retrospect, the time I couldn't get back. 

I am not sure your intended point with this question, but we do agree life sucks at times and while I don't credit a god or blame one --one way or the other,  I accept life on its terms and am glad to be living mine, for all the bad, there is a lot of good too. 

Edited by Sherapy
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1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Gee, Wally, you hurt people here, all the time, innocently expressing your honest opinion. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. No one appreciates being back-handed "for their own good." Even just verbally.

And that i think, is the problem No one likes being told their behaviours cause  hurt or harm, yet every person has a responsibility to do exactly that IF the hurt and harm is real.

We have to learn to do what is right and necessary to combat harm, rather than  remain silent or be complicit, just to keep the peace, or remain popular.

  I am responsible for the INTENT of my words but cannot be responsible for how others perceive them, as i cannot know or understand how another will feel or react .

One can do nothing else but innocently  express an honest opinion ie a truth,  but one must not express a truth DESIGNED to hurt or harm.

AND yet ,  one must express it, even knowing it will cause hurt or harm, if it Is necessary  to prevent a greater or more physical harm.  

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Based on your autobiographical details of the childhood you shared and then recommending it as a superior method based on how "you turned out "being caned repeatedly till college age and many other things you posted about your life; I did conclude your childhood was abusive. 

But, you do not see it that way and in the end that is what matters to you as it should be. 

I have faced and transcended the abuse of my childhood and have gone on to live a life of love and fullness, I have raised 3 amazing men in non violence this is my legacy, not what you think as it should be. 

No offense, but it will be a cold day in hell that I will believe you are a man who actually does anything but give lip service to does no harm in his life while at the same time advocates corporal punishment on a precious child. Shame on you. 

I gave nothing more to say on the matter. Do not respond. 

 

You did more than that.  You specifically called my parents abusers. based on your own values and beliefs, and   a total lack of understanding of my own relationship with my parents   I don't mind too much what you call me but publicly naming two of the most  loving and compassionate parents, who NEVER lost control of  their tempers  or language,  was very hurtful .

It took me a long while to get over it, especially  since my father had just died and my mother was suffering from breast cancer    The problem arose from your lack of experience with a calm, rational, loving and compassionate parent, who used discipline to teach, enforce, and  to punish bad behaviours .

It is the classic example of how your own life prevents you from seeing that  other people have difernt values based on different experiences 

And to be honest it is something i remember because, in the last 40 years or so it is the only thing ever to have raised a feeling of anger in me, which i had to  work hard to  eliminate.   

I don't really care what you think of me, but as it happens i have never struck a child, or indeed anyone ,in anger in my life, and only  a handful of times  needed to use physical means to ensure the safety of a child.   I've never used physical punishment to discipline a child   but i know loving physical punishment does not necessarily do  harm  and is much better than no punishment for bad behaviour at all.   

 

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32 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You did more than that.  You specifically called my parents abusers. based on your own values and beliefs, and   a total lack of understanding of my own relationship with my parents   I don't mind too much what you call me but publicly naming two of the most  loving and compassionate parents, who NEVER lost control of  their tempers  or language,  was very hurtful .

It took me a long while to get over it, especially  since my father had just died and my mother was suffering from breast cancer    The problem arose from your lack of experience with a calm, rational, loving and compassionate parent, who used discipline to teach, enforce, and  to punish bad behaviours .

It is the classic example of how your own life prevents you from seeing that  other people have difernt values based on different experiences 

And to be honest it is something i remember because, in the last 40 years or so it is the only thing ever to have raised a feeling of anger in me, which i had to  work hard to  eliminate.   

I don't really care what you think of me, but as it happens i have never struck a child, or indeed anyone ,in anger in my life, and only  a handful of times  needed to use physical means to ensure the safety of a child.   I've never used physical punishment to discipline a child   but i know loving physical punishment does not necessarily do  harm  and is much better than no punishment for bad behaviour at all.   

 

First of all, quote the post of mine that supports your accusations. 

Secondly, If  I did call your parents abusers, you need to show me the  proof and context. 

Unless you can provide evidence that I said your childhood was abusive based on my childhood values and morals you are creating melodrama unfairly and it is off topic, and I will report you for it. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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25 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

And that i think, is the problem No one likes being told their behaviours cause  hurt or harm, yet every person has a responsibility to do exactly that IF the hurt and harm is real.

We have to learn to do what is right and necessary to combat harm, rather than  remain silent or be complicit, just to keep the peace, or remain popular.

  I am responsible for the INTENT of my words but cannot be responsible for how others perceive them, as i cannot know or understand how another will feel or react .

One can do nothing else but innocently  express an honest opinion ie a truth,  but one must not express a truth DESIGNED to hurt or harm.

AND yet ,  one must express it, even knowing it will cause hurt or harm, if it Is necessary  to prevent a greater or more physical harm.  

 

 

Do not pretend that you do not speak with malice we have spoken to you many times about your veiled slurs. You feign innocence and make much ado about you and how others are your inferiors and speak out only to discredit you.

jmccr9

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29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

And that i think, is the problem No one likes being told their behaviours cause  hurt or harm, yet every person has a responsibility to do exactly that IF the hurt and harm is real.

We have to learn to do what is right and necessary to combat harm, rather than  remain silent or be complicit, just to keep the peace, or remain popular.

  I am responsible for the INTENT of my words but cannot be responsible for how others perceive them, as i cannot know or understand how another will feel or react .

One can do nothing else but innocently  express an honest opinion ie a truth,  but one must not express a truth DESIGNED to hurt or harm.

AND yet ,  one must express it, even knowing it will cause hurt or harm, if it Is necessary  to prevent a greater or more physical harm.  

 

 

MW, you are off topic, inappropriate and trolling. PM is for personal beefs and vendettas you have. 

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15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You did more than that.  You specifically called my parents abusers. based on your own values and beliefs, and   a total lack of understanding of my own relationship with my parents   I don't mind too much what you call me but publicly naming two of the most  loving and compassionate parents, who NEVER lost control of  their tempers  or language,  was very hurtful .

It took me a long while to get over it, especially  since my father had just died and my mother was suffering from breast cancer    The problem arose from your lack of experience with a calm, rational, loving and compassionate parent, who used discipline to teach, enforce, and  to punish bad behaviours .

It is the classic example of how your own life prevents you from seeing that  other people have difernt values based on different experiences 

And to be honest it is something i remember because, in the last 40 years or so it is the only thing ever to have raised a feeling of anger in me, which i had to  work hard to  eliminate.   

I don't really care what you think of me, but as it happens i have never struck a child, or indeed anyone ,in anger in my life, and only  a handful of times  needed to use physical means to ensure the safety of a child.   I've never used physical punishment to discipline a child   but i know loving physical punishment does not necessarily do  harm  and is much better than no punishment for bad behaviour at all.   

 

What about the times you had it out with students was that you being a loving and controlled disciplinairian?

jmccr8

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39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

And that i think, is the problem No one likes being told their behaviours cause  hurt or harm, yet every person has a responsibility to do exactly that IF the hurt and harm is real.

We have to learn to do what is right and necessary to combat harm, rather than  remain silent or be complicit, just to keep the peace, or remain popular.

  I am responsible for the INTENT of my words but cannot be responsible for how others perceive them, as i cannot know or understand how another will feel or react .

One can do nothing else but innocently  express an honest opinion ie a truth,  but one must not express a truth DESIGNED to hurt or harm.

AND yet ,  one must express it, even knowing it will cause hurt or harm, if it Is necessary  to prevent a greater or more physical harm.  

 

 

So, if it does harm--it's the bullet's fault--you just pulled the trigger. So, this is your excuse for running off at the mouth without considering the impact and consequences of your words. Unacceptable. Whatever lessons you learned in life, conversational etiquette wasn't high on the list if on it at all. You feel you have the right to judge and comment on people's lives? Fine. They have an equal right to do the same regarding you. Make no mistake, if you wrong them, innocently or not, they shall revenge. You'll just have to reap what you sow, like everyone else. There's absolutely nothing special about you.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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On 14/12/2017 at 0:54 AM, Mr Walker said:

I would agree, except that you have many catholic people calling the changes heresies while  they are supported by an atheist reporter :) .  i will wait  and see how it evolves over the next 50 -`100  years before passing judgement  :)  I find it ironic and amusing that the current pope has abandoned 2000 years of catholic dogma, and gone back to the biblical truths.  I must commend him for that.

Bishops and Deacons of the Catholic Church have become dry canals. More concerned with earthly possessions and material gains than spiritual liberation. I'm afraid that Pope Francis, for all his good intentions has a lot of waking up to do.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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1 hour ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Bishops and Deacons of the Catholic Church have become dry canals. More concerned with earthly possessions and material gains and libation. I'm afraid that Pope Francis, for all his good intentions has a lot of waking up to do.

There fixed that for you.:whistle:

jmccr8

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4 hours ago, MauriOra said:

Awww, not even, chocolate... Lol

No thank you ... cocoa please ... :yes:

~

4 hours ago, MauriOra said:

How bout a pitch fork..

I have an assortment of colours to suit ya...?

Interested??    Lol..

No thank you. I'm off duty now ... ;)

~

4 hours ago, MauriOra said:

You are a Master of words, I love it...

Oh good heavens no ... heavens forbid

I've just been around the block more times than many believes ...

THe CHinese has that adage ... 'Old hand' ... yeah ...  better :)

~

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27 minutes ago, third_eye said:

No thank you ... cocoa please ... :yes:

~

No thank you. I'm off duty now ... ;)

~

Oh good heavens no ... heavens forbid

I've just been around the block more times than many believes ...

THe CHinese has that adage ... 'Old hand' ... yeah ...  better :)

~

Off duty? What do you do?

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1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Off duty? What do you do?

:lol:

I was just being cheeky ...

What I really do (for now) is help run a banana / papaya grove ... harvesting, processing and such ...  :yes:

~

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4 minutes ago, third_eye said:

:lol:

I was just being cheeky ...

What I really do (for now) is help run a banana / papaya grove ... harvesting, processing and such ...  :yes:

~

Awesome!

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2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Awesome!

Oh no ... if you were to be here you would feel totally and entirely differently ... :lol:

THere is something that has to be said about four to five tonnes of bananas all stacked up but so far it has escaped me, even now ...

:D

~

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2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, if it does harm--it's the bullet's fault--you just pulled the trigger. So, this is your excuse for running off at the mouth without considering the impact and consequences of your words. Unacceptable. Whatever lessons you learned in life, conversational etiquette wasn't high on the list if on it at all. You feel you have the right to judge and comment on people's lives? Fine. They have an equal right to do the same regarding you. Make no mistake, if you wrong them, innocently or not, they shall revenge. You'll just have to reap what you sow, like everyone else. There's absolutely nothing special about you.

That is a flawed analogy  A person must do that which is right and ethical or moral, and which will produced the best physical results for the most people  Humans have the capacity to know what things will cause physical harm and which will not .

However the EFFECTS on people of words etc depends entirely on how that  person takes or perceives the words  And one cannot be responsible for the effects, only for the intent.

So if i tell my wife she is gaining weight, and needs to exercise, and have the intent of helping her by improving her health and fitness,  it is not my fault if she takes it as an insult and thinks it was a criticism 

Suppose i said nothing and she continues to put on weight and eventually has cardio problems resulting in a stroke or heart attack  Then I AM responsible because i could foresee that as as a likely result and did nothing to prevent it  

I don't speak without consideration, which might, in your eyes, make my words even worse. I speak truths which will help people   i can do  no more than this ie i cant compel them into safer behaviours but equally I cant be held responsible for how the y respond to truths  Indeed i MUST not be silenced by consideration of their feelings  IF being silent would do more harm. 

Absolutely  i have a right and a duty to point out to people when they harm themselves and others More than that, i have a duty to do so. And more than that  in extremes  i have a duty and responsibility to physically STOP them putting themselves or others a t risk by their behaviours  So if i know a man is beating his wife the i MUST take action to stop this  If i know a woman is too drunk to drive i MUST stop her form doing so  The only question /dilemma is how to do these things legally and safely.

  You have the same right and duty, but if you chose not to use it, you are abrogating your responsibly perhaps for peace of mind or convenience And you must bear the responsibility when your failure to warn or to act  results in harm.  

And not only would i expect, i would demand, that i be prevented from harming others

  If i were likely to harm another i would present myself to the police to be taken into custody. I have spent my life learning to be in control of my behaviours so that i will NEVER hurt another person through loss of control.

  If someone knew i was, for example, eating or drinking something which would harm me i would expect them to tell me and I'd be very annoyed if they failed to do so, resulting in harm to me, over time.

Revenge is stupid and a non productive emotional response 

No one has ever sought revenge on me for anything because i don't treat people badly. I would avoid attempts at revenge either through intelligent responses or preparedness. 

I reap what ti sow every day, and thus my life is good, because i sow only good :) 

You are half right. I actually learned formal etiquette and good behaviour, but I also learned that certain ethics, moralities, and practicalities, outweigh such etiquette. Neither my parents, nor my wife have any tolerance for lies, half truths, prevarications, or  answers so tactful they serve no purpose, or even mislead.    

   

Edited by Mr Walker

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Do not pretend that you do not speak with malice we have spoken to you many times about your veiled slurs. You feign innocence and make much ado about you and how others are your inferiors and speak out only to discredit you.

jmccr9

I dont speak with malice  i don't think in malicious or hurtful terms.  I am sometimes blunt and forthright but i don't have a malicious bone in my body.  It is the malice fear hate or envy  in others which causes them to assume malice in me   And when have i EVER  called others my inferiors.

No humans are inferior to me and no humans are superior to me.  Each of us are unique individuals with different skills and talents. Some make more use of their skills and talents but basically we are all identical.

When you see what you perceive as a 'veiled slur" please call me out on it immediately, and i will look at how or why you might see it that way  .    

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2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

MW, you are off topic, inappropriate and trolling. PM is for personal beefs and vendettas you have. 

That was a direct repose to a post   from hammer claw. I am happy to let the mods decide who started it, and to take appropriate action. Indeed i would like to see them more pro active with such personal commentary, which i think is offensive and inappropriate as well as time wasting,  a lot more often, but i wont be shut up by you or anyone else who makes it personal,  and then expects that to silence me 

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3 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

What about the times you had it out with students was that you being a loving and controlled disciplinairian?

jmccr8

 Go back and read those accounts.  I have been physically attacked only once while teaching, and i defended myself. After having my ribs cracked by a punch to the chest i took hold of the students in a defensive grip which was very painful and immobilising, but would not damage him.  I then put my face up to his and said, very quietly and calmly  " I am going to let you go. You will leave the room. If you hit me again, I will   knock your head off your shoulders"

He replied, "  You would lose your job " I just grinned and replied, "look me in my eyes. Do  I look as if i care?"   He left. His mother wanted me disciplined but i said i was happy with that as it would allow me to take him to court and press charges of assault. Given the bruising and confirmed damage to my ribs, the outcome was clear to everyone, and mum backed down  

This kid had been throwing metal pieces into a metal fan and had them ricocheting all over a packed class room When i told him to stop, he told me to  "F...off"  and  then asked me to make him stop if i could .

 

  I was threatened a few times  and made it clear that any threat would be met with massive retaliation.

I NEVER start a fight, but i don't like being hurt, so i  will end one as quickly as possible.

Apart from when i was a student my self, and was forced into fighting two bigger and older boys, the only time i have got involved in fights with students was to physically step in between the combatants, and thus cause them to stop hurting each other.  I received one long term injury  from  being struck on the neck,  but prevented serious harm to  students   in a number of cases.

  In EVERY case my presence between those fighting  stopped the fight almost immediately (most teenagers dont REALLY want to be fighting each other, and just need an excuse to stop)  and when i was hurt it was accidental and the student was very apologetic  

And in every case i was totally in control of my emotion.s  I was neither afraid nor angry, but calm and thinking .I was thinking, planning strategising  and predicting    This is  the best way to end a fight as quickly as possible,  with the minimum of long term harm  

What was the point of this question again ?

Any way, yup!  I reckon, absolutely, i have been a loving and VERY controlled disciplinarian 

Several people told me i should not have placed myself between the fighting students when i did, and just let them fight  My response was that it was my duty and responsibility to protect them and stop them hurting each other and this was a stronger imperative than self protection  I spent 3 winters with a lot of  headaches  neck pain, and almost total immobility in my neck, from even the smallest cold breeze,  due to damage to  the neck, but eventually  it recovered. i did this because i LOVED those kids and didn't want them hurt   and if i hadn't loved them i wouldn't have acted quite as readily.   Duty and responsibility are acts of love and care. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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