Can science prove or disprove "God"?

[Podo]

5 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

But, if I could use an example, it's like a vacuum cleaner trying to suck in wifi. 

This is possibly the greatest analogy I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm gunna print it out and put it at my desk, it's hilariously accurate. You continue to be the best of us, Stubbs

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Emma_Acid said:

We have prisons full of people with no religion? According to a study, atheists only make up 0.2% of the US prison population, with Catholic, Protestant and Muslim making up over 80%. Or is that not your point?

My Grandpa, my favourite person in the world, was a Methodist preacher and Quaker. I absolutely do not think less of people of faith. Only people who judge atheists or who think that we're the ones who have to explain ourselves.

We all have to explain ourselves, our beliefs, our points-of-view if we wish to be understood those who do not share them. As for prison populations, to be of a religion and practice it are not necessarily the same thing. True Faith isn't a garment one may wear or take off on a whim. You can walk away from it for a time, as I did, but if you really had it to begin with, it never really deserts you. Faith abides, even among some whose errant path leads to prison, or worse. As for atheists, there are a lot of good, moral and just atheists in this thread, alone, some are my friends and I am yours if you will have me.

[rashore]

Since this is the top topic in this area right now, and I realize many members are participating... I'm going to give a friendly general reminder of UM rules at this time. Not because of any misbehavior in this thread. But sometimes it's wise to remind folks about it in general..

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Rashore, moderating team

[Blood_Sacrifice]

19 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The definition of god does not have to include that gods are supernatural. In actuality  the only real, possible, gods are natural.

Either advanced alien beings OR thought constructs and archetypes ( like jung's philemon)  constructed to help our minds cope with the effects of self aware consciousness in a world we don't comprehend. 

Most theological, philosophical and metaphysical definitions of God are supernatural. Not only that, but such a God, by definition, exists outside of spacetime and is inherently beyond human comprehension, which makes it a non-falsifiable and non-provable thing.

I don't see what 'advanced alien' or 'thought constructs' (whatever they might mean) has to do with the topic.

[back to earth]

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

can you show me what a god looks like?  

a bible delivering angel , that looks like a normal man

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

can you show me how a god walks?

he walks into the hospital room like everyone else , hands you a bible then walks to the window and ....  gone ! 

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

can you tell me what a god smells like?

'Californian Poppy'  hair oil .

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

can you tell me what a god acts like?

Hands you a bible , jumps out window .

8 hours ago, freetoroam said:

the others i am not going there, because they can be heard everyday = in some believers minds, but this is no proof of a god outside their own inner fantasy. 

(i somehow feel the answers are going to be as abscure as god is)

 

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Hands you a bible , jumps out window

[Will Due]

You guys need to stand in the corner.

 

[back to earth]

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

Science will never prove the existence of God. 

The MOST pointless thing possible, is to debate the existence of God, in my opinion. It's undignified. 

To me, the veracity in the way some feel the need to argue that God doesn't exist is proof that they know that he does. Why else be so focused on him? 

 

Okay then, But that also means the veracity of arguments about God's existence by believers means they don't really believe at all and really know he doesn't exist .

 

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

Being confused about God and having honest questions is valid, who he is and what he is. Especially since we live on such a confused and dark world.

The most that can be said to relieve this confusion is to reinforce the greatest truth about God. That he is our Father and we are his sons and daughters.

It's because of this fact, which your given free will can deny if you choose, that we are able to know anything for sure. Know what is real.

I see ; by imagining God is real and is our father and is like as depicted in the UB  ...  that gives us the ability to know what is real ?

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

Remember, no father ever keeps any of his children in suspense about their standing with him for long.

?   Look, you going to compare God with all fathers ( due to your use of the term 'no father would ' )  ... you have not got a clue of what fathers can be capable of !

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

 

But until your free will rebellion against him ceases, if it exists in your soul, he is not likely to do so. He will never force anyone to change their perception about anything, against their will.

 

?    Wot  ?

[back to earth]

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

I have a question. 

Forget about unicorns, fairytales, Zeus and all those obviously false gods so many go there with.

But why, even without scientific evidence which will never be realized, wouldn't you believe in a fatherly, loving, personal and friendly God, as Jesus of Nazareth revealed?

That's an easy one !

Because this definition of God is clearly based on a non-transitional phase of child-father relationship  to  independent individuated adult .

Its very obvious .  And very basic .

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

"He who has seen me has seen the Father."

 

But we have not seen him .

 

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

I know there are problems with the biblical record but there's enough there to know what needs to be known of Jesus to believe in God.

 

 

I don see why .  There is enough in that record to know what needs to be known about the concepts of Jesus in Christianity. Yet you yourself admit it wasn't enough, it wasn't until the  very much more extensive stories about Jesus in the UB that the hoof got in.

And what about all the advanced cosmology of the UB that explains God , which is much more extensive than the Bible ?

Or have you now gone back to being a 'Bible / Jesus Christian' ?

[back to earth]

5 hours ago, Will Due said:

The myths of the gods of Olympus had their origin in the rebel members of the corporal staff of the fallen Planetary Prince of this world. Their half mortal descendants occupied the Land of Nod where Cain went to "get a wife" thousands of years after the onset of the planetary rebellion. These people were known as the Nodites, the Nephilim.

That probably sounds weird right?

 

 

The made up cosmology of the UB  (  "  the rebel members of the corporal staff of the fallen Planetary Prince of this world " - based on the old 'Hierarchy of Spirits' model -  had their origin in The myths of the gods of Olympus . 

I mean .... who came first . hmmmmm ... the UB or Greek mythology ?

The UB clearly harvested old concepts and filled them out   ... so it does not sound 'weird'  at all  ... it actually sounds familiar and ' borrowed ' .  (to any one that has done minimal   broad and eclectic reading in this field )

One example is Swedenborg's modelling'  

 

 

[back to earth]

7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, and we all seek that, from ourselves, from others, from God. The book, The Far Pavilions, contains the most perfect of prayers:

"Lord, forgive three sins due to my human limitations. Thou art everywhere, yet I worship thee here. Thou hast no form, yet I worship thee in these forms. Thou hast no need of praise, yet I offer thee these prayers and these salutations"

 

 

Urrrk !   Well, maybe 'most perfect' for you .   But I suppose, that is what it is all about , a personal mode.

For me , I have not found  one better than  this , from the ecologist John Seed , ' Invocation. '  ;

 

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia and pray that the breath of life continue to caress this planet home.

May we grow into true understanding ― a deep understanding that inspires us to protect the tree on which we bloom, and the water, soil and atmosphere without which we have no existence.

May we turn inwards and stumble upon our true roots in the intertwining biology of this exquisite planet. May nourishment and power pulse through these roots, and fierce determination to continue the billion-year dance.

May love well up and burst forth from our hearts.

May there be a new dispensation of pure and powerful consciousness and the charter to witness and facilitate the healing of the tattered biosphere.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia to be with us here. To reveal to us all that we need to see, for our own highest good and for the highest good of all.

We call upon the spirit of evolution, the miraculous force that inspires rocks and dust to weave themselves into biology. You have stood by us for millions and billions of years — do not forsake us now. Empower us and awaken in us pure and dazzling creativity. You that can turn scales into feathers, seawater to blood, caterpillars to butterflies, metamorphose our species, awaken in us the powers that we need to survive the present crisis and evolve into more aeons of our solar journey.

Awaken in us a sense of who we truly are: tiny ephemeral blossoms on the Tree of Life. Make the purposes and destiny of that tree our own purpose and destiny.

Fill each of us with love for our true Self, which includes all of the creatures and plants and landscapes of the world. Fill us with a powerful urge for the wellbeing and continual unfolding of this Self.

May we speak in all human councils on behalf of the animals and plants and landscapes of the Earth.

May we shine with a pure inner passion that will spread rapidly through these leaden times.

May we all awaken to our true and only nature — none other than the nature of Gaia, this living planet Earth.

We call upon the power which sustains the planets in their orbits, that wheels our Milky Way in its 200-million-year spiral, to imbue our personalities and our relationships with harmony, endurance and joy. Fill us with a sense of immense time so that our brief, flickering lives may truly reflect the work of vast ages past and also the millions of years of evolution whose potential lies in our trembling hands.

O stars, lend us your burning passion.

O silence, give weight to our voice.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia.

 

[Will Due]

13 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

The made up cosmology of the UB  (  "  the rebel members of the corporal staff of the fallen Planetary Prince of this world " - based on the old 'Hierarchy of Spirits' model -  had their origin in The myths of the gods of Olympus . 

I mean .... who came first . hmmmmm ... the UB or Greek mythology ?

The UB clearly harvested old concepts and filled them out   ... so it does not sound 'weird'  at all  ... it actually sounds familiar and ' borrowed ' .  (to any one that has done minimal   broad and eclectic reading in this field )

One example is Swedenborg's modelling'  

 

 

I've started a new topic for discussing the UB:

 

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, freetoroam said:

can you show me what a god looks like?  

can you show me how a god walks?

can you tell me what a god smells like?

can you tell me what a god acts like?

the others i am not going there, because they can be heard everyday = in some believers minds, but this is no proof of a god outside their own inner fantasy. 

(i somehow feel the answers are going to be as abscure as god is)

I can only physically show you if you can also see the god but yes of course  a god can be described and recorded in enough detail that a person reading your account would recognise it. Ive never seen a living dinosaur or unicorn or dragon but can recognise these from their description.  It doesnt matter if an entity is real or mystical, humans create detailed taxonomies and descriptions to share physical and conceptual  properties.

Ive given brief and detailed  descriptions of the qualities and characteristics which allow humans to identify what humans characterise as gods,  before.

Spoiler

of

 

[back to earth]

and one might notice that it is set on a model map of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life

 

                                                

[back to earth]

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I can only physically show you if you can also see the god but yes of course  a god can be described and recorded in enough detail that a person reading your account would recognise it. Ive never seen a living dinosaur or unicorn or dragon but can recognise these from their description.  It doesnt matter if an entity is real or mystical, humans create detailed taxonomies and descriptions to share physical and conceptual  properties.

Ive given brief and detailed  descriptions of the qualities and characteristics which allow humans to identify what humans characterise as gods,  before.

  Hide contents

of

 

 

'  of ' ... that's  it  ?  

[Mr Walker]

3 hours ago, Blood_Sacrifice said:

Most theological, philosophical and metaphysical definitions of God are supernatural. Not only that, but such a God, by definition, exists outside of spacetime and is inherently beyond human comprehension, which makes it a non-falsifiable and non-provable thing.

I don't see what 'advanced alien' or 'thought constructs' (whatever they might mean) has to do with the topic.

Not entirely true. It depends on your cultural and temporal contexts eg since the god of the books became so prevelant we have tended to this view but for most of human history gods were considered real powerful natural entitles who interacted with humans all the time. Unless something is demonstrable it is powerless and a powerless god is not a god.

Real gods are either real alien beings or exist physically as powerful thought constructs which influence peoples behaviours. The god you describe is incapable of either existence or proof But plenty of god forms are physical entities or mental constructs whose reality could be measured and established .

Edited August 16, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, Be.cause said:

What's the Truth of Life™ ?

For every individual it is what we believe it to be. My question would be,  ' Who will have the better outcomes in life; a person who believes they have no  purpose, or a person who has a strong inherent sense of their purpose and reason for being?" 

[Mr Walker]

53 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

'  of ' ... that's  it  ?  

Oh  Damn!  Didn't the photos of the show girl, cardinal, donkey and dwarf, I promised you, download ?

Must have been an act of divine intervention  

Actually on my tablet, sitting up in bed with the wood fire going, but  under pressure from my wife to get up and get breakfast and do the chores, I hit a wrong button and never noticed it   

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, back to earth said:

 

Urrrk !   Well, maybe 'most perfect' for you .   But I suppose, that is what it is all about , a personal mode.

For me , I have not found  one better than  this , from the ecologist John Seed , ' Invocation. '  ;

 

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia and pray that the breath of life continue to caress this planet home.

May we grow into true understanding ― a deep understanding that inspires us to protect the tree on which we bloom, and the water, soil and atmosphere without which we have no existence.

May we turn inwards and stumble upon our true roots in the intertwining biology of this exquisite planet. May nourishment and power pulse through these roots, and fierce determination to continue the billion-year dance.

May love well up and burst forth from our hearts.

May there be a new dispensation of pure and powerful consciousness and the charter to witness and facilitate the healing of the tattered biosphere.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia to be with us here. To reveal to us all that we need to see, for our own highest good and for the highest good of all.

We call upon the spirit of evolution, the miraculous force that inspires rocks and dust to weave themselves into biology. You have stood by us for millions and billions of years — do not forsake us now. Empower us and awaken in us pure and dazzling creativity. You that can turn scales into feathers, seawater to blood, caterpillars to butterflies, metamorphose our species, awaken in us the powers that we need to survive the present crisis and evolve into more aeons of our solar journey.

Awaken in us a sense of who we truly are: tiny ephemeral blossoms on the Tree of Life. Make the purposes and destiny of that tree our own purpose and destiny.

Fill each of us with love for our true Self, which includes all of the creatures and plants and landscapes of the world. Fill us with a powerful urge for the wellbeing and continual unfolding of this Self.

May we speak in all human councils on behalf of the animals and plants and landscapes of the Earth.

May we shine with a pure inner passion that will spread rapidly through these leaden times.

May we all awaken to our true and only nature — none other than the nature of Gaia, this living planet Earth.

We call upon the power which sustains the planets in their orbits, that wheels our Milky Way in its 200-million-year spiral, to imbue our personalities and our relationships with harmony, endurance and joy. Fill us with a sense of immense time so that our brief, flickering lives may truly reflect the work of vast ages past and also the millions of years of evolution whose potential lies in our trembling hands.

O stars, lend us your burning passion.

O silence, give weight to our voice.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia.

 

Sheesh, nature worshippers are a long-winded lot. I'd hate to sit through one of their sermons on an empty stomach.

[back to earth]

That was 'grace ' .....    ha haar !

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Will Due said:

You guys need to stand in the corner.

 

It's a round room.

jmccr8

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

It's a round room.

jmccr8

I thought it was a padded room?

[jmccr8]

Just now, XenoFish said:

I thought it was a padded room?

That too and sound proof, not to mention the club jackets with the tie behind sleeves.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not entirely true. It depends on your cultural and temporal contexts eg since the god of the books became so prevelant we have tended to this view but for most of human history gods were considered real powerful natural entitles who interacted with humans all the time. Unless something is demonstrable it is powerless and a powerless god is not a god.

Real gods are either real alien beings or exist physically as powerful thought constructs which influence peoples behaviours. The god you describe is incapable of either existence or proof But plenty of god forms are physical entities or mental constructs whose reality could be measured and established .

I have a tape measure and scale, go ahead bring one of those mental constructs by, I'll verify it for you.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

or a person who has a strong inherent sense of their purpose and reason for being?" 

I have that and really didn't need to make a mental construct of a god to achieve it.

jmccr8