Can science prove or disprove "God"?

[+Hammerclaw]

16 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Why?

Why not?

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Geez, how about the countless people who find the love  of their life after a divorce, or friendship with a spouse they didn't have in the marriage. 

Exactly, it's really basic, people change over time.  I have no confidence that if my parents had met their current spouse before they got married that they would or should have married them instead of each other at that time.

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Exactly, it's really basic, people change over time.  I have no confidence that if my parents had met their current spouse before they got married that they would or should have married them instead of each other at that time.

First person for me, my ex ( now deceased) became such a great friend to me and the love of my life, Sean ( hubby of 21 years). My ex, Mike was so happy for me that I found such a great guy. True story! 

The kids from my first marriage adore Sean. 

Honestly, Mike and I often said thank god we had the courage to get out, Mike found his soul and happiness being single, he was not the marriage type, where I am. 

Like you said, people change. I am not the same person I was then.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Sherapy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Actually, Stubbs you brought in great points, of course there are those that choose to be childless for reasons like not adding to the population, or because they think they are suited to other things. My neighbors as a matter of fact, chose to not have kids. 

Each to their own, and I agree with you on this point I don't have daughters, yet I am a mother of three grown sons, and most likely I would have fared fine with daughters, but I really don't know, because I didn't have them. I don't think it is the same to raise girls as it is boys, for me.  I think I might have struggled more due to the lack of relationship with my mother. 

I tutor, but this doesn't qualify me as a teacher, it most likely has elements that are transferable, but it is not the same, I would have much to learn. 

For ex: I recently interviewed a relief caregiver who had a degree in special ed, helped with the care of her mom with late stages dementia and I also knew her to be a caring loving mother, she certainly had the qualifications, the problem was in the interview/training process I knew she wouldn't be a good fit, not because she didn't have the potential, not because I didn't want her to be the right fit, she just wasn't open to learning and wasn't humble enough to know what she didn't  know,  she thought she already knew everything because she had a degree in something else. When I asked what do you know about stage 4 COPD and Hospice she admitted to knowing nothing ( which is fine, I didn't either at first) but the questions that she asked to get up to speed had no bearing on the situation at all. I concluded, In my mind, no way would she work. Sadly, for her, the know-it-all while good in some cases was not for this situation, so her strategy to be assertive, came off as aggressiveness/closemindedness and she lost the job. I tried to gently tell her It wasn't a situation that needed to be changed according to what she thought, but a situation that she needed to keep things as structured and familiar for the patient as possible, for my ladies well being, it went over her head. 

You know, there is a lot I could learn from this. I will be honest, it is hard on me, because I feel I could be like that lady you interviewed. It is sometimes hard to be open to learn more, but I also realized, how else to keep up with the world. I struggle with this everyday. But, I also deal with it, and do what is a must, and learn more, because it is what helps. 

You know, despite how you would feel about raising a daughter, and how your relationship is with your mom might direct you a certain way, I have a feeling you would actually just as loving to her and you have been (and still) to your sons. I think it's the fact, that you have been to your three sons. I feel, that it's not just how my mom raised me, that it spilled over to my daughter, but to my son. Actually, I think it's both of my parents way of raising me, but it is also my resolve as well, and the importance of knowing what is best for raising and loving your children. 

As I have said, I feel I do have a big ego. I try to deal with it, but nevertheless................... 

Well, anyways, when it came to having my first born, my daughter, and a week later, I was home with her, when the town's social official called and wanted to come by to check on me and her. (My hubby was around, and in fact, he was at work, (or was he TDY, I can't remember) Well, normally I would have been resentful of being not trusted to be checked up on. NO, I welcomed her and was glad she was doing what she was doing, because I wanted my daughter to get what she needs and wants. And if I needed to be told what is best, then so be it. I thanked the lady for coming and caring for making sure children are being loved and cared for. I think you, Sheri, would have raised wonderful girls just as much, because I think you would have put their needs first, like you did with your boys. I think it's in you, as you have shown here.  

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Exactly, it's mostly the inclusion of divorce that is ridiculous, there are tons of divorces that are not based on 'faulty' choices.  My parents married and that was not faulty or a mistake, my parents divorced and it was not faulty or a mistake, and my parents both remarried and that wasn't faulty or a mistake.  I think it conflicts with someone else's path in life which is by definition the bestest, thus anything else is faulty.

I have come to know a few couples, and friends who have been married before, where they pretty much were 'encouraged to get married' whether they really loved each other or not. And of course, that didn't work out well. Faulty choices my butt!!!! There is a lot more to relationships, that judgmental lectures do not understand and shouldn't nosy in on. 

 

 

[jmccr8]

49 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have come to know a few couples, and friends who have been married before, where they pretty much were 'encouraged to get married' whether they really loved each other or not. And of course, that didn't work out well. Faulty choices my butt!!!! There is a lot more to relationships, that judgmental lectures do not understand and shouldn't nosy in on. 

 

 

Back home they were shot gun weddings in urban areas and pitch folk in rural.

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

Marriages of necessity sometimes work out, sometimes do not. Being shoved into the company of a relative stranger can lead to love or hate or cold indifference. Marriage has been the death of many beautiful relationships and has ended friendships. It should never be a means to an end.  Devotion to the institution itself is a poor substitute for the deep and lasting love to which it may be a proper culmination.  

[Mr Walker]

21 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

How incredibly naive and simplistic, your survey of the human condition has apparently been incredibly myopic.

Prove me wrong then  There is nothing in the human mind or body which COMPELS a human being to ever act or behave in a fixed way. We all can make choices, even when  those choices are difficult and the options limited eg you might have a choice between staving to death or eating your dead teammates when your plane crashes in the andes    And so, given any environment we find ourselves in, we are able to choose a range of behavioural and mental responses  in repose to that environment   The denial of this truth is used by people to excuse their behaviours as they argue they HAD to behave a certain way or they were forced to do something harmful. 

Because a human mind can see and predict the results of different behaviors  we are able to choose and select the best or optimal behaviours to produce the best or optimal results  Of course this will depend on individual values and priorities You might KNOW that adultery will destroy your marriage and mean the loss of your kids, but still decide the sex is worth the consequence. When you've lost your family however don't blame anyone else but yourself, and poor decision making, for your position.  Choose to break the law and end up in gaol ;don't blame the system.  Get a speeding ticket :. Dont blame the revenue raising govt, admit that you were speeding, and either did so deliberately or carelessly   Get a girl pregnant;  it is not her fault she didnt make you have sex with her  You chose to.

I think you are fooling yourself, and myopic indeed, if you can't see how humans knowingly make poor choices, and then often get all upset at the consequences, and try to pretend life is unfair, or others are to blame   Next time use your brains    

I suppose there are  a few humans truly so dumb they cant see the consequences of an action like drink driving That is why we have rules. If you're dumb, just obey the rules, and you'll be ok 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Exactly, it's mostly the inclusion of divorce that is ridiculous, there are tons of divorces that are not based on 'faulty' choices.  My parents married and that was not faulty or a mistake, my parents divorced and it was not faulty or a mistake, and my parents both remarried and that wasn't faulty or a mistake.  I think it conflicts with someone else's path in life which is by definition the bestest, thus anything else is faulty.

Divorce is always a choice. It can be hard choice and should be, but for many modern people it is too easy A divorce results from a series of bad choices by one or both parties Eg a choice to be violent or abusive a choice to cheat  a choice to be disrespectful or uncaring  . OR a choice that love is more important than a promise made for life   if your parents divorced then there was a reason for that divorce and the reason would go back to choices one, or both, of your parents made, over a period of time.  if the y had not made "those faulty' choices then they would still be married (given that when the y married the y intended and promised to be married for life, then choices which lead them from that goal and promise are flawed or faulty)

Not saying that it is wrong to get divorced just that  the decision to do so  is a choice  and the cause is usually if not always previous choices in life, made by one or both of the partners  In the modern era one of the couple might not agree with the  choice or decision  to divorce but ha t is just how our system now works   That person now has another set of personal choices to make .  

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Divorce is always a choice. It can be hard choice and should be, but for many modern people it is too easy

Or, modern people don't share the same subjective values as Walker.

Quote

if your parents divorced then there was a reason for that divorce and the reason would go back to choices one, or both, of your parents made, over a period of time.  if the y had not made "those faulty' choices then they would still be married 

No.  Things and people change over time.  Their choice to get married was the right one and their choice to get divorced was the right one, as evidenced by their happiness today.  You seem to be too focused on the idea that it's always more important that people fit the marriage instead of the marriage fitting the people.

Quote

Not saying that it is wrong to get divorced 

Yet you lumped it in with being miserably unhappy and jail.  If it's not wrong to get divorced then the choices (if there actually are any) that lead to divorce don't have to be faulty.  There's nothing faulty or necessarily even decision-based that leads people to the point that they are not very happy being with each other anymore and that they would be happier apart. 

We're pretty far afield of anything having to do with science and God so I'll leave it there.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

9 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

10 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I have come to know a few couples, and friends who have been married before, where they pretty much were 'encouraged to get married' whether they really loved each other or not. And of course, that didn't work out well. Faulty choices my butt!!!! There is a lot more to relationships, that judgmental lectures do not understand and shouldn't nosy in on. 

 

 

Back home they were shot gun weddings in urban areas and pitch folk in rural.

jmccr8

Yup, I'm still familiar with that term,    

But, it's more than when the lady is knocked up in the family way.  Like a friend of mine, there was just being encouraged to marry and to marry this person, because others feel you should. Too much pushing into marriage by some, because of the assumption you should marry, period.   And of course, that marriage(s) never work out. So, I find some who bellyache about one's bad choices when it comes to marriage and it ending up in divorce, should realize, it necessarily happens to be the bad choice of wrong and nosy outside influences. 

8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Marriages of necessity sometimes work out, sometimes do not. Being shoved into the company of a relative stranger can lead to love or hate or cold indifference. Marriage has been the death of many beautiful relationships and has ended friendships. It should never be a means to an end.  Devotion to the institution itself is a poor substitute for the deep and lasting love to which it may be a proper culmination.  

Like your point and it's meaning, if it's done right. Yes,   I think a lot of marriages end, because of too much influence in it, even right from the beginning. And I see too much meaning of how to do it, when it's not a one shoe fits all institution. 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Like your point and it's meaning, if it's done right. Yes,   I think a lot of marriages end, because of too much influence in it, even right from the beginning. And I see too much meaning of how to do it, when it's not a one shoe fits all institution

Anytime you make any important decision with the mindset of "I really ought to." your motives are suspect. When it comes to marriage, doing what is expected of you can be the worst mistake you had hitherto made in your life. Clinging to one after the other party has already, in their hearts, forsaken you, is just as bad.

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Or, modern people don't share the same subjective values as Walker.

No.  Things and people change over time.  Their choice to get married was the right one and their choice to get divorced was the right one, as evidenced by their happiness today.  You seem to be too focused on the idea that it's always more important that people fit the marriage instead of the marriage fitting the people.

Yet you lumped it in with being miserably unhappy and jail.  If it's not wrong to get divorced then the choices (if there actually are any) that lead to divorce don't have to be faulty.  There's nothing faulty or necessarily even decision-based that leads people to the point that they are not very happy being with each other anymore and that they would be happier apart. 

We're pretty far afield of anything having to do with science and God so I'll leave it there.

Everything is a choice We choose to be happy or not.  It is a logical fallacy that other things can MAKE us happy or unhappy, although our conditioning  pre  disposes us towards being happy in certain conditions and unhappy in others.

ALos, i suspect,  the importance of individual "happiness" has increased in importance to people along with the idea of individual rights  One's own happiness and rights are no more important than the effect one's decisions and behaviours have on OTHER people.

My argument was, and remains, that every condition a human finds themselves in today (apart from the inevitable external effects of natural forces) is a result of a series of self aware choices which that human made   Some of us are fortunate to have a lot more freedom in our choices but every human has the same abilty to choose and make decisions about their behaviours and responses to external stimuli. 

  And yes where we find ourselves in our personal lives, such as a marriage, is always a result of prior decisions and behaviours and choices. In this we are different to animals and plants who are at the mercy of both external forces and programmed biological and genetic drivers. They can't see things coming and alter or choose behaviors to ensure outcomes in advance. We can If our partner is not happy with us, we can work to change ourselves, and our behaviours, so that they are happy.    

It is connected to science and god, and very much connected to the psychological reasons humans construct gods and beliefs to pardon and rationalise behaviours they know will cause harm, rather than using will and discipline to avoid them.  . Oh and it is "wrong" to get divorced, but only because a married couple made an oath or a vow to each other   to their friends and family, and often to god, that the y would live together as partners for the rest of their lives.  If they have to break that vow  then  something has gone wrong  Vows have a purpose and a meaning and to break them is always wrong . Maybe it was wrong to make the promise in the first place if you are not capable of living up to it. .it is also wrong if, and when, the divorce hurts other people. You don't have a moral right to your own happiness if this means hurting others, sometimes with children so badly that they never recover  from the trauma of a parent's divorce . 

[nephili]

I

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Everything is a choice We choose to be happy or not.  It is a logical fallacy that other things can MAKE us happy or unhappy, although our conditioning  pre  disposes us towards being happy in certain conditions and unhappy in others.

ALos, i suspect,  the importance of individual "happiness" has increased in importance to people along with the idea of individual rights  One's own happiness and rights are no more important than the effect one's decisions and behaviours have on OTHER people.

My argument was, and remains, that every condition a human finds themselves in today (apart from the inevitable external effects of natural forces) is a result of a series of self aware choices which that human made   Some of us are fortunate to have a lot more freedom in our choices but every human has the same abilty to choose and make decisions about their behaviours and responses to external stimuli. 

You have pushed this terrible logic before and it offended everyone. You talk in circles and cycles, Mr. Walker.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, nephili said:

I

You have pushed this terrible logic before and it offended everyone. You talk in circles and cycles, Mr. Walker.

The truth does not change, so my words do not change , and people are often hurt when they have to consider that the way they live is based on a lie. 

 Prove me wrong in any of this.

 Many people avoid taking responsibility for their own weaknesses, lack of self discipline,  and poor decisions, by placing blame on others or on circumstances.

Humans KNOW right from wrong. We can always choose right. We can predict consequences of different actions. (if a person cannot, then they are not safe to be at large in a society) 

Of course we are human and so do not always succeed, and sometimes we are too weak to do what is right, but hard, but first we have to recognise that we can, and then make an effort.

 I suspect that it often goes to the fact that children are never taught to be honest and accountable for their actions, and the consequences of those actions, and  generally taught that they are more important than others.  . 

On the other hand, humans have come a long way  since our primate ancestry, and are progressing, especially in,modern times. It is no longer an excuse for a crime, as it was until quite recently, that you committed it in a loss of control or of passion

Are you one of those who believes that we are not accountable for our choices actions and consequences because everything is foreordained and we dont have any control?   Do you believe that humans are NOT capable of ,making good decisions and acting for good not evil?  

Taking out the forces beyond human control, how is any human NOT responsible for the choices they make and thus the outcomes those choices create,a nd if we are responsible then are we not accountable.? 

Tell me, how can anyone get control of your brain and make you feel happy, or sad, or angry, or  any emotion? They cannot!!

 You react in response to stimuli and you have a choice about how to react, because humans LEARN those responses  and become conditioned to them but can override those responses and conditioning and learn new ones.  It is called neural plasticity

Out of interest.

Do you believe that your happiness comes first, and  that it is acceptable to be happy, even if this comes at cost to others?   Do you believe you have a right to be happy even if it hurts others because you are somehow more important than others . 

What offends you in my post and why? 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Crazy Horse]

On 13 August 2017 at 3:23 AM, XenoFish said:

First we'd need a working definition of god, because there isn't one. 

Infinite Inteligent Living Mind. 

THE ALL.

To put it another way. THE ALL ( God ) is in all ( everything ), and the all ( everything ) is in THE ALL ( God ).

We are all held within the Mind of THAT which Is.

[Crazy Horse]

On 13 August 2017 at 3:10 AM, nephili said:

Is there a branch of science that could prove or disprove "God" beyond speculation? Could a type of technology detect or measure "God"? Is there any proof or otherwise of "God"? Anything at all that is beyond just speculative belief or disbelief?

I personally believe if "God" exists, science and technology will be able to prove or disprove it.

Opinions please.

The science of today is wholly concerned with the material world and that which can be seen, measured and repeated.

Can God be measured? Can we make God perform tricks on command? No & No.

Can God be seen?

Life itself came from somewhere, the working Laws and Universal Principles, the beauty in Nature and the Inteligent Design of everything is there for all to see.

Everything is energy, emanating from the same source, how could this be otherwise? 

Most of us are vibrating at a very low, dense level thanks to our own choices, actions and attitudes born of fear, hatred and greed. 

Luckily an attitude can change in a heartbeat. Your mind, your will, your choice.

[XenoFish]

God doesn't exist until it can be proven to exist. There is only the material reality, because everything is made of something. 

[Crazy Horse]

29 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

God doesn't exist until it can be proven to exist. There is only the material reality, because everything is made of something. 

Is your life not proof enough?

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Is your life not proof enough?

No.

[Crazy Horse]

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No.

So where does your life force, the energetic forces of Nature, the energy behind the sun, and every other thing, seen or unseen, come from?

If not God, then what?

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

God doesn't exist until it can be proven to exist. There is only the material reality, because everything is made of something. 

Yes - everything is made of something, energy.

Where does that energy come from?

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yes - everything is made of something, energy.

Where does that energy come from?

So are you going to just quit thinking and say GOD. Like so many others do? 

The GOD answer is the maximum level of no-thought that people can muster. It's a willingness not to look for answers, willful ignorance. God did it they scream, god this, god that. Instead of looking for actually answers, even if answers can never be found, it is better to seek than it is to assume without proof. My life is a chemical process. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by XenoFish

[Crazy Horse]

26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So are you going to just quit thinking and say GOD. Like so many others do? 

No, my mind is just getting started, but I would like to know your thoughts on the matter.

Its a simple enough question, where in your opinion does the underlying energetic force that moves absolutely everything, seen or unseen, in the universe, where does this arise from? Because even materialistic science will tell us that something energetic cannot come from nothing, or that the same force can disappear into nothingness either.

Every single thing in this universe is energy vibrating at its own particular frequency.  We can measure thoughts, therefore we know that consciousness is energetic too. We know too that mind effects matter, quantum physics and the placebo effect and Dr Emotoes work are some proofs..

So actually, science supports the idea of a God, but those who wish to enslave humanity within a purely material perspective, narrowing their minds, creativity and ambitions too, are only too happy to push this narrative. 

 

 

[nephili]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The truth does not change, so my words do not change , and people are often hurt when they have to consider that the way they live is based on a lie. 

 Prove me wrong in any of this.

 

 

I don't feel I have to. I've seen you proved wrong on this subject. You're famous for your inability to accept you are wrong. So no.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

Many people avoid taking responsibility for their own weaknesses, lack of self discipline,  and poor decisions, by placing blame on others or on circumstances.

 

 

What I will do is give you a cordial invitation to go to any VA hospital and spew this nonsense. Tell any veteran they can just decide to be happy and it's a weekness. That it's just a decision and self discipline. I double dare you.

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

What offends you in my post and why? 

Nothing yet. It's a proactive approach to try and keep your head out of your.....