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nephili

Can science prove or disprove "God"?

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Blood_Sacrifice

First provide an unambiguous definition of God.

Based on the popular definition, I'd say no. Science is a tool to study the natural world through objective, testable and repeatable evidence. God is supernatural, and trying to 'prove' faith totally defeats the entire purpose of holding a belief.

 

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pbarosso

science cannot so people like you need to stop asking because you know the answer youre just trying to spread your ideas

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nephili
1 hour ago, pbarosso said:

science cannot so people like you need to stop asking because you know the answer youre just trying to spread your ideas

Well, people like you need to learn punctuation. It sure makes you look uneducated.

I don't know the answer as you assume I do. I'm not spreading any ideas, I am trying to have some meaningful conversation with intelligent people. Preferably ones educated in forming ideas and sentences into paragraphs.

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nephili
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Even if god is proven. Who is to say that it will be anything like the god of the bible? That god in my opinion is a psychological construct. The term god might not even apply to the first cause, the very thing that made our existence possible. Another problem is the eternal god idea, if something exist outside of space-time it will have no causal effect on our reality. So it basically does nothing. 

I definitely don't think it would prove the bible right at all. That version of "God" is political and embellished by the church. But I do think there are qualities of a god that would be necessary to be considered a higher being at all. If it has no effect on our universe at all, I don't think it qualifies.

It could be somewhat similar to SETI. We may not have a clue who or what we're looking for and we may be completely in vain because we don't even know if what we are looking for is real or if it even falls within our qualities that aliens should have according to us.

Just because we don't have a formal description of these aliens, I don't think looking for them as impossible. I do think our methods are wrong however.

And I have seen said a few times before, we may find out gods and aliens are one in the same.

Edited by nephili
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Scudbuster

Science needs something to observe........and there's...... nothing to observe.

Edited by Scudbuster

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Wes4747

what if god is just the observer? How could one prove they were being observed?

Why does god have to be supernatural?  Perhaps god is the most natural. 

Maybe there is no reason for god to interfere. God could just be enjoying the show, living out each of our lives and every other noun in the universe for the experience.

The miracle? Maintaining the universal existence. 

Doesn't rule out anything supernatural, but if faith healing were scientifically determined to be a thing-could just be our internal god spark of creativity being tapped into thats always available and always present. And god might not care who uses it or how its used? 

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ChrLzs
On 8/13/2017 at 0:29 PM, simplybill said:

It will always be impossible to 'prove' the existence of spiritual things with material tools.

If they affect reality, then it shouldn't be that difficult.  Science is good at that sorta thing.  Do you have an example?

But if they don't affect reality... they might as well not exist.

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nephili
46 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

If they affect reality, then it shouldn't be that difficult.  Science is good at that sorta thing.  Do you have an example?

But if they don't affect reality... they might as well not exist.

That is what I think also. We can now detect things across galaxies and in the event horizon of a black hole. We should easily be able to detect a being that has an effect here on Earth. To be "God" it has to have some effect here.

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Stubbly_Dooright
20 hours ago, nephili said:

I definitely don't think it would prove the bible right at all. That version of "God" is political and embellished by the church. But I do think there are qualities of a god that would be necessary to be considered a higher being at all. If it has no effect on our universe at all, I don't think it qualifies.

It could be somewhat similar to SETI. We may not have a clue who or what we're looking for and we may be completely in vain because we don't even know if what we are looking for is real or if it even falls within our qualities that aliens should have according to us.

Just because we don't have a formal description of these aliens, I don't think looking for them as impossible. I do think our methods are wrong however.

And I have seen said a few times before, we may find out gods and aliens are one in the same.

I found your post here, fascinating Nephili. :) And as someone who has a fascination for reading on paranormal things, including claimed experiences, (I take them in various ways) I think about what I have read and heard of experiences through out the years, to experiences of those in their faith. I would think that both area's experiences from various people, could be the same. Meaning in a subjective outlook and environment. Though, I often reflect how the description of 'aliens' tend to be similar from case to case, (from what I have read and heard.(( even a friend's account of their own experience had what looked like an alien seemed to have the same similar appearance.))   ) I wonder, if experiences and accounts of religious things are appeared just as similar from case to case. Well, my point is, I would think, there would be more of something to go on in UFO and encounters of that nature than with religious experiences and encounters. (Then again, that would be my subjective reasoning on that, ........... you know, my two cents. ;)  :D ) 

But as I reflect of accounts and places to have, (and probably viewed from my outlook) that have 'evidences' like alien bodies and fragments of wrecked spaceships, I think that I recall of places that have holy fragments within their holy places. I guess, it could be viewed as the same thing. I just think, me personally, that there is more to go on in UFO experiences than in religious one's. 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
22 hours ago, pbarosso said:

science cannot so people like you need to stop asking because you know the answer youre just trying to spread your ideas

As I have said earlier, that I myself, have found such threads with the same question, to be also with an agenda, I don't really think the OP has that same agenda. And I feel this particular part of the board is the perfect place for such a thread. 

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Sherapy
23 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Even if god is proven. Who is to say that it will be anything like the god of the bible? That god in my opinion is a psychological construct. The term god might not even apply to the first cause, the very thing that made our existence possible. Another problem is the eternal god idea, if something exist outside of space-time it will have no causal effect on our reality. So it basically does nothing. 

Fear is a powerful driver ( natural selection), fear pushes  us to seek to connect to others to get around people or to connect to the feeling that we are not alone, I think religion and 'god' constructs get their roots in this. 

There is a study on this if you care I will find it. 

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XenoFish

Even if I do not care. It would be worth sharing with others. 

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Sherapy
44 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Even if I do not care. It would be worth sharing with others. 

Will do later. 

:wub:

Do you meditate?

During the actual death process (with my lady) (who chose to die at home) on the third day (when her kidneys shut down) she conveyed fear, she would say "Sheri" I would respond I am here and held her hand, she would say "okay" this went on all day.  She didn't want to suffer physically, she didn't know what would happen or what death held for her, we had talked extensively about this for months. Of course, I had no answers. It was her show as they say.  She didn't have any issue with religion or god, but really wasn't what I would call a church goer, or staunch believer,  she did ask for a pastor the  day she realized she was about to experience death. She told me he brought her a lot of comfort, she felt better! They sang songs...for  some, the illusion of god in tandem with a person who is there gives a sense of comfort to deal with the fear of impending death, it seems to be from my vantage point the idea of suffering, we spend lifetimes trying not to suffer. I personally think this is natural instinctive ( an opinion only) And god constructs were made up as a tool to cope with inevitable--death. Of course, this is just my two cents.

Edited by Sherapy
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Liquid Gardens

It depends on what qualities we want to imbue god with.  If one's god flooded the entire earth or created all the species on earth 6000 years ago, then science has 'disproved' that god.  I think science could also challenge the idea of a 'creator' god depending on what science can find out concerning the origin of our universe, which may cover more people's conceptions of god.

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Podo

No. Science can't prove a negative, because if something doesn't exist there is nothing to measure or test. It's also not a similar situation to gravity waves or dark matter because no deity exerts any tangible force on the physical world, probably because no deity exists. If something doesn't quack, doesn't smell like a duck, doesn't look like a duck, and doesn't do duck things, it's probably not a duck.

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Podo said:

No. Science can't prove a negative, because if something doesn't exist there is nothing to measure or test. It's also not a similar situation to gravity waves or dark matter because no deity exerts any tangible force on the physical world, probably because no deity exists. If something doesn't quack, doesn't smell like a duck, doesn't look like a duck, and doesn't do duck things, it's probably not a duck.

Indeed, and we can have hunches, intuitions, "think things" reward centers get tripped, make us feel great, ( compliments of natural selection), but if there is no theory or even a loose hint of a theory from the area or even neighborhood of science, it is most likely( just my two cents) the mind doing a whole lot of chattering which is heavily influenced by how we feel about things, (CBT) Cognitive Behavioral Therapy has broken a lot of ground in this area. I think we all find comfort in something, what we want to be hip to is to keep that in mind, even if one beleives in god, no problem, but there has to be a humble mention of taking things on faith somewhere. Simply because righteousness leads to conflict, no matter the mask it shows up wearing. For ex:  because I just don't feel there is a god at the of the religious rainbow, or think that there is "enlightenment" at the end of the Buddhist rainbow, it doesn't matter, it is what works for the person my objective is to steer clear of harm, not fuel it. 

Edited by Sherapy
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On3Truly
7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 I think science could also challenge the idea of a 'creator' god depending on what science can find out concerning the origin of our universe, which may cover more people's conceptions of god.

Do you have some ideas, or is it just putting a (blind?) faith in science's ability to pierce the veil or existence?

Edited by Be.cause
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Liquid Gardens
38 minutes ago, Be.cause said:

Do you have some ideas, or is it just putting a (blind?) faith in science's ability to pierce the veil or existence?

Ideas about what specifically?  An 'answer' for 'piercing the veil of existence'?  That's not the most specific.  

If science can come up with more information on how the universe came into being or determine this is just another in a series of universe cycles for example, then it potentially contradicts some conceptions of creation involving a god.  Right now, that is a big 'if' whether science can accomplish that, but regardless that's not a point in favor of a religious or 'non-science' explanation.

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On3Truly
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Ideas about what specifically?  An 'answer' for 'piercing the veil of existence'?  That's not the most specific.  

I could claim that the Old gods will return in 500 years from now and reveal everything we need to know. That would be putting 'blind faith' in a concept without any real evidence of that ever happening. It seems to me you were doing a similar thing with science, that in due time it will reveal the truth about the world and reality, rendering the God hypothesis meaningless. I was asking about potential clues, or ideas on why we should reasonably expect that to happen.

Quote

being or determine this is just another in a series of universe cycles for example,

Many physicists argue that the Multiverse view is not science. It cannot be 'tested', like some conceptions of God. It also leaves many questions unanswered that cannot be resolved empirically. Are we really more advanced?

 

Edited by Be.cause

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Liquid Gardens
6 minutes ago, Be.cause said:

It seems you were a doing a similar thing with science, that in due time it will reveal the truth about the world and reality, rendering the God hypothesis meaningless. I was asking about potential clues, or ideas of how we can expect that to happen.

It doesn't seem to me I was doing that, I think we should maybe place more emphasis on 'could', 'depending on', 'can' and 'if' in my statements.  I'm not a scientist, I don't know how we can expect that to happen, I doubt that many people expected what Einstein found to happen before his discoveries.  I didn't say anything about veil's of existence or the God hypothesis, I'm merely noting some conceptions of God overlap with scientific topics and to the extent they are, or in the future turn out to be, in disagreement, provide opportunity for science to 'disprove' that god.

Your statements about the God hypothesis are interesting though, what specifically is the 'truth about the world and reality' referring to, what phenomenon is the god hypothesis explaining?  What would be an example of science providing an answer to the truth about reality, what specifically would we need a scientific explanation for in order to make the god answer meaningless?  Doesn't an answer of 'God' just shove the questions back a step, don't we then just have similar questions plus new ones about God himself, especially if all we know is that it is 'a god' and don't know his characteristics? 

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simplybill
19 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

If they affect reality, then it shouldn't be that difficult.  Science is good at that sorta thing.  Do you have an example?

It is difficult for me, because the discussion is often erroneously framed as an either/or choice: Science or God. I don't believe they're mutually exclusive at all. 

The statement: "Science is the only avenue to truth" can't be proved scientifically. The sciences do not provide proofs of where reality begins or ends, or of what the dimensions of truth are. (Those are paraphrased quotes from different sources).

 

19 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

But if they don't affect reality... they might as well not exist.

Science has several examples of possible 'unknowns' that appear to affect reality: dark matter, multiverses, the possibility of a 10th planet that causes fluctuations in the orbits of the other 9, and so on. In the same way, an unseen but hands-on, proactive, benevolent God affects reality also. Even an ardent non-believer such as Richard Dawkins can see the affect that Christianity has had on the world: “I have mixed feelings about the decline of Christianity, in so far as Christianity might be a bulwark against something worse."

In spite of its stumbles (and sometimes outright apostasies) Judeo/Christian ideology has had a very pronounced and positive affect on the world. When held accountable to its own principles, Judeo/Christian ideology has provided the greatest amount of justice and freedom for the greatest number of people. 

Edited by simplybill
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Mr Walker
On 13/08/2017 at 11:40 AM, nephili said:

Is there a branch of science that could prove or disprove "God" beyond speculation? Could a type of technology detect or measure "God"? Is there any proof or otherwise of "God"? Anything at all that is beyond just speculative belief or disbelief?

I personally believe if "God" exists, science and technology will be able to prove or disprove it.

Opinions please.

Ok if god exists as a neural construct of the human mind this would be provable using advanced mris  

If god exists a s an alien entity with great power this also could be proven if our own technology was sufficient.

In reality the only god which cannot be proven to exist is a human construct which says that IF it can be proven it is not a god ie that gods are so unique or powerful that they are undetectable Of course such a god is useless and doesn't actually exist because it cannot affect or influence a human or respond, even within a mind, to a human

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On3Truly
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

It doesn't seem to me I was doing that, I think we should maybe place more emphasis on 'could', 'depending on', 'can' and 'if' in my statements.  I'm not a scientist, I don't know how we can expect that to happen, I doubt that many people expected what Einstein found to happen before his discoveries.  I didn't say anything about veil's of existence or the God hypothesis, I'm merely noting some conceptions of God overlap with scientific topics and to the extent they are, or in the future turn out to be, in disagreement, provide opportunity for science to 'disprove' that god.

But then the opposite could also be true. Why not? That some conceptions of God overlap with scientific topics to the extent that they are in fact, in agreement. Did you consider that or is it definitly out of the question?

Quote

Your statements about the God hypothesis are interesting though, what specifically is the 'truth about the world and reality' referring to, what phenomenon is the god hypothesis explaining?

A 'creator-god' explains why we might live in an holographic Universe. Whether that God is alien and/or supernatural in nature I make no firm claim. But this is an interesting philosophical topic based on a modern scientific question. The origin of our Universe may very well be illusionary, or counterfeit.

''Moderator Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the museum’s Hayden Planetarium, put the odds at 50-50 that our entire existence is a program on someone else’s hard drive. “I think the likelihood may be very high,” he said. He noted the gap between human and chimpanzee intelligence, despite the fact that we share more than 98 percent of our DNA. Somewhere out there could be a being whose intelligence is that much greater than our own. “We would be drooling, blithering idiots in their presence,” he said. “If that’s the case, it is easy for me to imagine that everything in our lives is just a creation of some other entity for their entertainment.”''

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation/

*bolds are mine

Edited by Be.cause

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Mr Walker
On 13/08/2017 at 0:24 PM, XenoFish said:

Hang around me long enough and you'll see more interesting thoughts than that.

So let's say that we do develop this technology. We still have no idea nor definition of god. Every religion defines god differently. Faith healing is really nothing more than a placebo effect that will never replace actually medical treatment. The soul has yet to be discover, it may or may not even exist. Speaking in tongues? I thought that was only for drunk people. 

That is a philosophical cop out We have taxonomies for gods and angels  and dragons.  I could tell the difference between a chinese dragon and an english dragon if i ever met either. I could tell the difference between  different forms of angels   i could spot thor or odin and tell their difference from quetzalcoatl .

It is simple really.  There might be all sorts and types of gods,  but humans can label catalogue and distinguish between them, and between god and not god, because it is we who are defining them and giving them the labels  This argument only works for those who wish to argue that, because god is such a difficult mental construct to define, we can't label anything as a god. 

If an entity approaches you;  heals every illness you have, rejuvenates you to be 21 years of age again, changes your gender (making you incredibly attractive to both sexes at the same time) ,  and  gives you an encyclopedic knowledge, not just of earth, but of other planets and species,    you don't HAVE to think of it as a god, but you might as well.

Especially if it throws in a set of steak knives that will cut through any material, and never need sharpening. 

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XenoFish

"If" is a really big word there. If as in if it happens which it won't. Because they do not exist. God's, spirits, all that. It's nothing but self-delusion. A fools game. 

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