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nephili

Can science prove or disprove "God"?

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Of course I visualize,but I had to first take something real/physical apart in order to understand it's components, build things that I was shown and read diagrams and spec sheets all of those things were external. and yes a creative mind creates based on what they know of the physical world. If I read a book to gain knowledge I can feel the book, turn it's pages see the contrast of the words on the page they are real physical experiences that help me visualize and understand because for the most part I have been self educated, I didn't build a mental construct of the book, or the motor they exist and I made them a part of myself.

jmccr8

 

LOl I worked your posts backwards this time and in this post you have just answered a couple of the questions i asked.

 I actually admire you if you first have to have a real model to pull apart before you build. You are then achieving something from a much more difficult base   Everything i built I had just read about and had to work from inside my head using theoretical knowldge and then experimenting, by trial and error, to creatively design things like functional long bows,  cross bows  ballista,  heavy long range catapults  etc.  rockets and explosives. i certainly never had the opportunity to see examples of the real thing  i rarely even had a chance to see diagrams or plans or pictures or formulae.

 I would argue that what you call visualisation, is what i would call creating a mental construct.  I build mine up from scratch, using individual  mental  components, and while i cant see them in my mind I know how and why they will work . 

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

It is not your prerogative nor is it mine to speak for others and the path they have chosen to walk in life, only our own. If we are contented with the road we travel, we can only hope to influence others by the example, which they may choose or choose not to follow.. I am here neither to preach nor proselyte, only to share what I hold dear with others. 

That is wrong.  (obviously my opinion but for me it is universally wrong)  We all have, not just a right, but a duty and an obligation, to point out to others when they  take paths which might harm themselves or others and indeed sometimes to prevent them from taking that path  

There is no such thing as unrestricted individual liberty for anyone, unless they live in isolation .

This is not to say that there are not many diverse, productive and constructive paths through life, but when for example, you see a path leading to suicide, or illness, or crime, or even hurt, you have a duty to at least point the dangers out and possibly to take action.   

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Now you're off on a tangent and attributing words of your own to be mine, which they are not. Everything we know, everything we perceive is in our heads. Everything in this gigantic artifact we call civilization was first inside someone's head before it was created.

This was a response to jmccr8 and it is not tangential but a direct response to the points he made.  You've just outlined my own pov and why i was saddened to hear young men saying they found nothing real in stories or narratives.   They create ideas or mental constructs  which are as real as every thought and idea a human being has.  While independent reality exists apart from human minds, as humans we ONLY understand and perceive, and hence create our version of reality, via our minds.  

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Sherapy
8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I find a certain nobility in that sort of fatalistic acceptance. If they are decent, honorable, well-adjusted and happy, then it serves them well. Whether or not I agree or disagree with their stance is not germane to the issue.

Bravo, Hammie J., one of the many reasons I am inspired by you. Without mentioning names a certain poster could stand to take a page out of your book. 

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Sherapy
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I just find it sad, and a diminishment of human potential, but then i simply can't comprehend it  other than intellectually.

I cant see how one can be happy, or even content, without purpose. it is one of the known psychological needs required for human happiness and contentment   Why continue to exist if there is no purpose to your existence.?

Gosh, I find "no set purpose" liberating, exciting, and a life chock full of opportunities. 

My grandmother had this type of fatalistic approach to life, she had more fun, loved with such abandon, broke more ground, and felt/lived her life with a zeal that was truly awe inspiring. 

The no purpose people roll with the tide, they are honest, resilient, they put their loved ones first, will move mountains for them and often do and they do scare the more rigid types. 

I was so incredibly lucky to have a free spirit  as my guide. 

We are incredibly fortunate to have X., his authenticity amd willingness to let go of the big "I" is courageous to say the least. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Will do
17 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Gosh, I find "no set purpose" liberating, exciting, and a life chock full of opportunities. 

My grandmother had this type of fatalistic approach to life, she had more fun, broke more ground, and felt/lived her life with a zeal that was truly awe inspiring. 

The no purpose people roll with the tide, they are honest, resilient, they put their loved ones first, will move mountains for them and often do and they do scare the more rigid types. 

I was so incredibly lucky to have a free spirit  as my guide. 

We are incredibly fortunate to have X., his authenticity amd willingness to let go of the big "I" is courageous to say the least. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Living life without purpose, well, is the purpose then. 

It's not really about purpose anyways, since there's always a purpose even if the purpose of life is to have "no purpose."

Life is about identity. It's about establishing our identity. 

Purpose or not.

 

Edited by Will Due
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Emma_Acid
15 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

 As for atheists, there are a lot of good, moral and just atheists in this thread, alone, some are my friends and I am yours if you will have me.

It's a deal buddy :D

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XenoFish
16 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Living life without purpose, well, is the purpose then. 

It's not really about purpose anyways, since there's always a purpose even if the purpose of life is to have "no purpose."

Life is about identity. It's about establishing our identity. 

Purpose or not.

 

Life isn't even about our identity because even that will be dust.

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Mr Walker
22 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Life isn't even about our identity because even that will be dust.

Why are you so hung up on what will be (or rather what will not be)?

The point is what is now, and how we connect to it and shape it.

The fact that you are alive now means the universe is now, and always will be, different than if you had never lived.

How different, and in what ways different, is up to how much effort and energy you put into your life and how you direct those energies eg for constructive or destructive purposes.

You would not be here if not for many people preceding you.  Likewise, if you have children, you contribute to a future, going on for an indeterminate period. Even if you don't have kids your life will resonate after your death and exert an influence on the universe.  To die is very very different to never having lived.

Edited by Mr Walker

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XenoFish

Life is only what you make it and once its over you'll be forgotten within 100 years. The only thing left behind might be the idea of the person you were. If UM is archived in some data base and people a 1000 years from now read all we've wrote, they will only have a notion of who we were. 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Living life without purpose, well, is the purpose then. 

It's not really about purpose anyways, since there's always a purpose even if the purpose of life is to have "no purpose."

Life is about identity. It's about establishing our identity. 

Purpose or not.

 

For you it is about establishing an identity, and if that works best for you that is what matters, I was this way too and it served me at the time and may again.

For me, life has evolved to a place that I no longer take "myself" so seriously, it is more about letting go...

At present, life is full of oppourtunity and I rather enjoy experiencing what is next. 

Looks as if it is yoga teacher training. 

Gonna look at the no self thing, see what that is all about. 

Stay tuned. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
29 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Why are you so hung up on what will be (or rather what will not be)?

The point is what is now, and how we connect to it and shape it.

The fact that you are alive now means the universe is now, and always will be, different than if you had never lived.

How different, and in what ways different, is up to how much effort and energy you put into your life and how you direct those energies eg for constructive or destructive purposes.

You would not be here if not for many people preceding you.  Likewise, if you have children, you contribute to a future, going on for an indeterminate period. Even if you don't have kids your life will resonate after your death and exert an influence on the universe.  To die is very very different to never having lived.

I would say X., is living his life...

I think his dynamics scare you, because it is so different for you.

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish

http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html

We often go through this concerning loved ones or personal tragedy. I've done this with the full realization and acceptance of my finite life. I'm between stage 5 and 6 now. I feel that once you authentically move past the fear of death and being forgotten, only then can you truly live. However this is only my perspective that I expect no one to agree with. Neither will I even make the effort to tell others to follow me. I won't lead, I won't follow, the path I walk is mine alone. 

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Will do
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Life isn't even about our identity because even that will be dust.

That's true, except for how much you transfer your material identity to the spiritual identity of the soul, which survives this life.

 

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XenoFish
Just now, Will Due said:

That's true, except for how much you transfer your material identity to the spiritual identity of the soul, which survives this life.

 

Again I must point out that is pure speculation. Its what helps you sleep at night. If there truly is something after this life, I'll deal with it when I get there. You keep your eyes to the sky your whole life you miss the world around you. In all its beauty and horror. 

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Will do
43 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For you it is about establishing an identity, and if that works best for you that is what matters, I was this way too and it served me at the time and may again.

For me, life has evolved to a place that I no longer take "myself" so seriously, it is more about letting go...

At present, life is full of oppourtunity and I rather enjoy experiencing what is next. 

Looks as if it is yoga teacher training. 

Gonna look at the no self thing, see what that is all about. 

Stay tuned. 

 

Perhaps what you're actually doing is the key to living a truly spiritual life, a happy life.

Being self-forgetful.

 

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Will do
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Again I must point out that is pure speculation. Its what helps you sleep at night. If there truly is something after this life, I'll deal with it when I get there. You keep your eyes to the sky your whole life you miss the world around you. In all its beauty and horror. 

I like how you put it that way. There isn't anything more important than living this life first. Yeah, in all its beauty and goodness. As horrible as it is sometimes. Lol.

 

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Sherapy
29 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

http://www.recover-from-grief.com/7-stages-of-grief.html

We often go through this concerning loved ones or personal tragedy. I've done this with the full realization and acceptance of my finite life. I'm between stage 5 and 6 now. I feel that once you authentically move past the fear of death and being forgotten, only then can you truly live. However this is only my perspective that I expect no one to agree with. Neither will I even make the effort to tell others to follow me. I won't lead, I won't follow, the path I walk is mine alone. 

Indeed, and the stages aren't linear, one can bounce around; you are dealing with so much  on your own and you are helping your children deal with this situation. The brain does its own thing to protect itself from overwhelming moments. 

I have been through two death experiences as a Hospice liaison caregiver in the last 8 months. I even have a strong support system and I go to therapy and I have times that I am broken hearted over the loss of my friend, there were times I was overwhelmed at the death process even with the full support of Hospice and  bereavement counseling, I have good days, I have bad days, at present I am focusing on my well being by taking time off. 

I think it is pragmatic and prudent to do all you can to prepare yourself in the event things take a turn. 

X., you do what works for you for whatever you beleive. It is really not to far off from my latest journey, exploring the experience of nonself.  

Let's compare notes after you experience your latest quest.  

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Perhaps what you're actually doing is the key to living a truly spiritual life, a happy life.

Being self-forgetful.

 

I shall see...

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Hammerclaw
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That is wrong.  (obviously my opinion but for me it is universally wrong)  We all have, not just a right, but a duty and an obligation, to point out to others when they  take paths which might harm themselves or others and indeed sometimes to prevent them from taking that path  

There is no such thing as unrestricted individual liberty for anyone, unless they live in isolation .

This is not to say that there are not many diverse, productive and constructive paths through life, but when for example, you see a path leading to suicide, or illness, or crime, or even hurt, you have a duty to at least point the dangers out and possibly to take action.   

You dissemble, by citing extreme, hypothetical examples and circumstance. Your critique was of the very way they choose or choose not to live their lives, what they believe or believe not and the moral certitude of your own superior position in that regard. You're a conceited meddler, pontificating on that which is none of your business or concern.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Hammerclaw

I have many friends who choose to walk the road, in the certainty of their apostasy, contented to be sealed unto themselves, alone. Yet, within many of them I see a light that shines like a many-splendored star, lighting their way. If they should ever choose to seek that which they deny, they have only to look inside themselves, for there they will find their wisdom. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
23 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:
23 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Do we all exactly do that? I feel, there has to be those, a few or more, that can't even do that. 

 

One can only speak for oneself. Never make the mistake of thinking you know how others speak to themselves.

Well, yeah. I hope you believe that I don't do that. That is why I emphasized on the we. :D  ;)  

23 hours ago, Will Due said:

Stubbly and Sheri, it's fair to not believe in God. If the circumstances of life force this perception, when in a more ideal situation the opposite would have held fast, it's my belief that the Father would grant mercy for the opportunity to reveal one's purpose in the next life. I insist that it's the case, but as you know, I've been wrong before.

This world is a mess. Especially when considering the deplorable example human parents often represent to their children. It seems to me that having been subjected to this experience, the good Father in heaven will be merciful.

I understand Will, very much I do. And you should stick to that. I will stand behind you in how you see that. It is what you have a right to. There are things, that you believe, that I don't. I hope you understand that to a sense or point. :) 

And yes, it's fair to believe or not believe in various of things. I understand you feelings in believing in God, in which I feel why I believe in my New Age unique beliefs, probably for the same reason. 

I think your humbleness, that I feel I have observed in your posts, takes my notice in a very reflective way. And I find you have a neat way of debating, which I take notice. :)  :D  

And unfortunately, with me, and from what I gather with you, it seems we have had negative experiences to need such things. Hopefully, we both get what we need. :yes:  

23 hours ago, Will Due said:

I have a question. 

Forget about unicorns, fairytales, Zeus and all those obviously false gods so many go there with.

But why, even without scientific evidence which will never be realized, wouldn't you believe in a fatherly, loving, personal and friendly God, as Jesus of Nazareth revealed?

"He who has seen me has seen the Father."

I know there are problems with the biblical record but there's enough there to know what needs to be known of Jesus to believe in God.

 

Well, I think that would be a fair question, in how I observe you see it. But, I don't have the subjective evidence that you have to believe the same thing. If this answers your question, I would wonder how you don't believe what I believe, because of how I have observed and have accumulated information in my life. I think, it's one of those reflections of not knowing outside your own universe of thinking type of thing. 

22 hours ago, Will Due said:

Should I go stand in the corner?

 

Sorry Xeno, despite understanding your point on this, I feel like giving Will a virtual hug and an awwwwww.....

22 hours ago, XenoFish said:

No. I'm waiting for the part about the rainbow unicorns that fire lasers. 

This is almost screaming for me to post the Charlie the unicorn video!!! :devil: 

22 hours ago, Will Due said:

I'll go stand in the corner.

 

Well, don't do as my son did as a child and be quiet about it. It would be hours later and then realize where is he and then yell, "You can come out of the corner now!" And then the guilt of forgetting he was there, because he was so quiet. No other kid did this, my daughter and others would whine about it the whole time. :o 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
21 hours ago, Podo said:

This is possibly the greatest analogy I have ever heard in my entire life. I'm gunna print it out and put it at my desk, it's hilariously accurate. You continue to be the best of us, Stubbs :tu:

Awwwww, shucks, :blush:    :blush:    :blush:     I try......................... 

Well, I was trying to use a pretty good imaginable example. Glad you like it! :D  

But, I don't measure up to you or Sheri, BTE, Xeno, 8bits, Hammie, jcmm8  (<---- did I get that right?) and others here I admire. 

17 hours ago, Will Due said:

You guys need to stand in the corner.

 

Come on! Admit it! You want to join us! :D  :D  

More fun that way, right? ;)  :devil:  

16 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

Urrrk !   Well, maybe 'most perfect' for you .   But I suppose, that is what it is all about , a personal mode.

For me , I have not found  one better than  this , from the ecologist John Seed , ' Invocation. '  ;

 

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia and pray that the breath of life continue to caress this planet home.

May we grow into true understanding ― a deep understanding that inspires us to protect the tree on which we bloom, and the water, soil and atmosphere without which we have no existence.

May we turn inwards and stumble upon our true roots in the intertwining biology of this exquisite planet. May nourishment and power pulse through these roots, and fierce determination to continue the billion-year dance.

May love well up and burst forth from our hearts.

May there be a new dispensation of pure and powerful consciousness and the charter to witness and facilitate the healing of the tattered biosphere.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia to be with us here. To reveal to us all that we need to see, for our own highest good and for the highest good of all.

We call upon the spirit of evolution, the miraculous force that inspires rocks and dust to weave themselves into biology. You have stood by us for millions and billions of years — do not forsake us now. Empower us and awaken in us pure and dazzling creativity. You that can turn scales into feathers, seawater to blood, caterpillars to butterflies, metamorphose our species, awaken in us the powers that we need to survive the present crisis and evolve into more aeons of our solar journey.

Awaken in us a sense of who we truly are: tiny ephemeral blossoms on the Tree of Life. Make the purposes and destiny of that tree our own purpose and destiny.

Fill each of us with love for our true Self, which includes all of the creatures and plants and landscapes of the world. Fill us with a powerful urge for the wellbeing and continual unfolding of this Self.

May we speak in all human councils on behalf of the animals and plants and landscapes of the Earth.

May we shine with a pure inner passion that will spread rapidly through these leaden times.

May we all awaken to our true and only nature — none other than the nature of Gaia, this living planet Earth.

We call upon the power which sustains the planets in their orbits, that wheels our Milky Way in its 200-million-year spiral, to imbue our personalities and our relationships with harmony, endurance and joy. Fill us with a sense of immense time so that our brief, flickering lives may truly reflect the work of vast ages past and also the millions of years of evolution whose potential lies in our trembling hands.

O stars, lend us your burning passion.

O silence, give weight to our voice.

We ask for the presence of the spirit of Gaia.

 

I think there is a version of this in my belief. :blush: 

14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

It's a round room.

jmccr8

:lol:  :lol:  

14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I thought it was a padded room?

Even better!!! :lol:  :lol:  

14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

That too and sound proof, not to mention the club jackets with the tie behind sleeves.:lol:

jmccr8

When are the hor' derves going to be served?!?!

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

If they can't be seen, felt, smelt or heard they do not exist in the physical world which is why I use tools that measure , bend, beat and shape things that can be seen in the real world. I don't pretend to use them or build them.

jmccr8

Well, in one sense, I could see it as them being a creative invention that inspires them to be build for real, just like you said it. 

Ah Hell, you're right. There really is no way of saying it. :yes:   (or maybe this is my way of using that ole quote, 'necessity is the mother of all inventions'. ................... wait! That doesn't make sense to the topic. ..................)

..................... Don't mind me, I'll be in the corner, quiet like my son. 

 

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Liquid Gardens
8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You dissemble, by citing extreme, hypothetical examples and circumstance. Your critique was of the very way they choose or choose not to live their lives, what they believe or believe not and the moral certitude of your own superior position in that regard. You're a conceited meddler, pontificating on that which is none of your business or concern.

Indeed, and to your already well-established credit the difference between you two 'believers' thankfully couldn't be more stark.  Although there may be some good intentions behind the post you are replying to, it seems woefully blind to how real people think and believe, the diversity of beliefs that provide 'good' lives to people, and that one size definitely doesn't fit all.  I don't agree much with the specifics of some of your religious/spiritual beliefs, but I definitely agree with your attitude about them and how well you understand that your path was designed for you and isn't the one super-highway that we all need to be travelling on. You respect other people's paths as if they are as valid as your own, because they are. :tu:

 

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