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Can science prove or disprove "God"?

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Liquid Gardens
18 hours ago, Be.cause said:

Empathy was divine and empathy came from beyond.

This idea would have more pull with me if there weren't so many species like our own who thrive primarily due to social cooperation, I can see how something like empathy developed naturally to support that.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Indeed, and to your already well-established credit the difference between you two 'believers' thankfully couldn't be more stark.  Although there may be some good intentions behind the post you are replying to, it seems woefully blind to how real people think and believe, the diversity of beliefs that provide 'good' lives to people, and that one size definitely doesn't fit all.  I don't agree much with the specifics of some of your religious/spiritual beliefs, but I definitely agree with your attitude about them and how well you understand that your path was designed for you and isn't the one super-highway that we all need to be travelling on. You respect other people's paths as if they are as valid as your own, because they are. :tu:

 

 

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and then
On 8/12/2017 at 9:36 PM, Timonthy said:

Even if you time traveled, god would still be some fluff in he sky. 

I'm sure if he presented himself then he could help us with the sciencey stuff, but do you think that will ever happen?

Possibly a valid point, but why not allow His creation to evolve to a certain point, acquiring the basic knowledge necessary to handle the intensive concepts, before He made His appearance?  Kind of like a nuclear physics prof not wanting to teach first graders to read and perform basic maths.  Additionally, if He allowed us to make our own mistakes and learn the painful lessons and realize for ourselves that we are incapable of not destroying ourselves and that we NEED tutoring by our Creator once we reach a certain degree of technological sophistication.  My only real problem with those who reject a Creator out of hand is that it smacks of a degree of smug arrogance, as though we now know enough to definitively prove for all time that it is impossible for the scriptures to be valid on any level.  It gets down to a personal decision about entertaining the concept that we don't know it all and that MAYBE those ancient writings are valid on some level.  I think we just become entrenched in our own biases against being told what to do by ANYONE, especially an entity that we can't see or touch.  My 2C

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Indeed, and to your already well-established credit the difference between you two 'believers' thankfully couldn't be more stark.  Although there may be some good intentions behind the post you are replying to, it seems woefully blind to how real people think and believe, the diversity of beliefs that provide 'good' lives to people, and that one size definitely doesn't fit all.  I don't agree much with the specifics of some of your religious/spiritual beliefs, but I definitely agree with your attitude about them and how well you understand that your path was designed for you and isn't the one super-highway that we all need to be travelling on. You respect other people's paths as if they are as valid as your own, because they are. :tu:

 

Indeed LG well put,  Hammie does go out of his way to respect and honor whatever works for others. He doesn't just give lip service either, this man truly is the kind of believer that gets to know the person and goes beyond the label and is an inspiration to me. He has grown so much. 

I adore this old guy, he is a big brother to me.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I have many friends who choose to walk the road, in the certainty of their apostasy, contented to be sealed unto themselves, alone. Yet, within many of them I see a light that shines like a many-splendored star, lighting their way. If they should ever choose to seek that which they deny, they have only to look inside themselves, for there they will find their wisdom. 

A friend once said if you don't see others through the eyes of love and tolerance, you do not see them at all.

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XenoFish
29 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

A friend once said if you don't see others through the eyes of love and tolerance, you do not see them at all.

giphy.gif

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Timothy
1 hour ago, and then said:

Possibly a valid point, but why not allow His creation to evolve to a certain point, acquiring the basic knowledge necessary to handle the intensive concepts, before He made His appearance?  Kind of like a nuclear physics prof not wanting to teach first graders to read and perform basic maths.  Additionally, if He allowed us to make our own mistakes and learn the painful lessons and realize for ourselves that we are incapable of not destroying ourselves and that we NEED tutoring by our Creator once we reach a certain degree of technological sophistication.  My only real problem with those who reject a Creator out of hand is that it smacks of a degree of smug arrogance, as though we now know enough to definitively prove for all time that it is impossible for the scriptures to be valid on any level.  It gets down to a personal decision about entertaining the concept that we don't know it all and that MAYBE those ancient writings are valid on some level.  I think we just become entrenched in our own biases against being told what to do by ANYONE, especially an entity that we can't see or touch.  My 2C

Then why wouldn't he just create us with that evolution, it would bypass the need to acquire anything or endure painful lessons?

Sounds like he/she/it must have been pretty smug himself...

Edited by Timonthy
Added she/it
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Stubbly_Dooright
13 hours ago, Will Due said:
15 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Life isn't even about our identity because even that will be dust.

That's true, except for how much you transfer your material identity to the spiritual identity of the soul, which survives this life.

I think for some, Will, this may not be possible. In the logical sense, we die, and that's it. I'm not saying this as bluntly or unkindly, and cold, just a logical fact from face point. Of course, that also chills me too. But, if one believes that they can transfer material identity to the spiritual identity, I say more power to them. I sometimes, think the opposite and enjoy that. If anyone sees that. If they don't, I understand. I feel, that you, and me, can work on our spiritual identities, because we believe there is a possibility. What Xeno is pointing out, I often reflect on from time to time. I wonder, even if our soul passes on, does our identity. What if our identity ceases like our body, when the soul passes on. In a sense, I see how this could be logically possible. 

This is just my point of view of seeing how you have come to your points, and how Xeno has come to his as well. :yes:

14 hours ago, Will Due said:

Perhaps what you're actually doing is the key to living a truly spiritual life, a happy life.

Being self-forgetful.

There are times, that I wish I could be. 

 

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Only_
4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

This idea would have more pull with me if there weren't so many species like our own who thrive primarily due to social cooperation, I can see how something like empathy developed naturally to support that.

Developped naturally, or was it inherent in nature? Waiting for our simian brains to receive it. Maybe, just maybe, in such a world, the most divine communications aren’t transmitted in a pink blast of gnostic data, but in that most telepathic of human emotions: empathy.

Edited by Be.cause
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jmccr8
17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I would argue that what you call visualisation, is what i would call creating a mental construct.  I build mine up from scratch, using individual  mental  components, and while i cant see them in my mind I know how and why they will work

I almost cringe at the thought of using this as an example but if an infant through childhood was kept in a state of sensory deprivation without ever hearing or having any physical contact with another human, what mental constructs do you think that they would be able to create? Mental constructs are formed by experience with or through information collected from the world around them, you understand fiction and fantasy because it was/is available to you through having read or heard stories. I understand my physical world through having experienced living in the world and separate fantasy from reality because of those encounters, and when I visualize it is because of my sense experiences with what I have learned. I don't just make stuff up with no experience of things that are real, sure I could fantasize about building and inter dimensional time travelling craft but in the end the truth is that there is no tech that is available to do so in the real world and leave it in the realm of fiction.

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
17 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Life is only what you make it and once its over you'll be forgotten within 100 years. The only thing left behind might be the idea of the person you were. If UM is archived in some data base and people a 1000 years from now read all we've wrote, they will only have a notion of who we were. 

That is true but so what? Its not about how others remember you but who you are while alive and how you judge yourself as a person.  On the other hand I have records of my mothers family going back to the 900s listing every one of her direct ancestors and a little bit about them. Ive traced my father's ancestors back to the 1500s and know a lot about many of them  from the 1700s and 1880s Our lives live longer than we suspect And those people lived before so much was recorded.

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

You dissemble, by citing extreme, hypothetical examples and circumstance. Your critique was of the very way they choose or choose not to live their lives, what they believe or believe not and the moral certitude of your own superior position in that regard. You're a conceited meddler, pontificating on that which is none of your business or concern.

As i have said many times,iti is the examples at the extremes which most properly illustrate a truth or morality or idea. And yes while i explained this was my own pov I also believe that some ways of living,some states of mind,are more productive and constructive than ohers.Some produce measurably better results. it is nonsense to simply say,each to his own, or that all ways and paths are of equal value.

Especially when we live in close proximity to each other and in  modern societies everyone's behaviours affect other people.

And indeed i have a duty and an obligation to "meddle or interfere"  or to help all other human beings To sit back and do nothing from my position of  privilege, comfort happiness and wealth would be deeply immoral. Superiority does not come into it as a subjective value it is about measurable outcomes of difernt ways of living. If you truly care about another person you cannot allow them to harm themselves or others where you can prevent it.

It is worrying that you find this attitude  conceited or pontificating. It was and should be the attitude which strengthens societies protects the weak and vulnerable and reigns in the power of those with wealth and privilege.

It remains the attitude of most in smaller communities, where i have lived almost my whole life, and where obligation and responsibility to community remains more important than individual rights or freedoms to do as you will. My "neighbours" well being IS my concern and my well being is their concern . 

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Indeed, and to your already well-established credit the difference between you two 'believers' thankfully couldn't be more stark.  Although there may be some good intentions behind the post you are replying to, it seems woefully blind to how real people think and believe, the diversity of beliefs that provide 'good' lives to people, and that one size definitely doesn't fit all.  I don't agree much with the specifics of some of your religious/spiritual beliefs, but I definitely agree with your attitude about them and how well you understand that your path was designed for you and isn't the one super-highway that we all need to be travelling on. You respect other people's paths as if they are as valid as your own, because they are. :tu:

 

Ive answered this above. I live in a community where real people still think as i do because they have not been disconnected from each other as people who live in cities generally are  They still care for others and thus take responsibility for them . There may be many paths through life but they vary in quality and outcomes  and some people find themselves lost and wandering in the wilderness without a path at all.  And so we have a third of young australians who die having killed themselves,  not suffered from accident or illness  when a third of the deaths of your young are caused by suicide and another third are suffering severe depression and anxiety, first it is clear that many people are lost, or on paths too difficult to navigate successfully, and second i tis clear that they need help.. 

It is untrue that every path is as valid as any other.  .

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I almost cringe at the thought of using this as an example but if an infant through childhood was kept in a state of sensory deprivation without ever hearing or having any physical contact with another human, what mental constructs do you think that they would be able to create? Mental constructs are formed by experience with or through information collected from the world around them, you understand fiction and fantasy because it was/is available to you through having read or heard stories. I understand my physical world through having experienced living in the world and separate fantasy from reality because of those encounters, and when I visualize it is because of my sense experiences with what I have learned. I don't just make stuff up with no experience of things that are real, sure I could fantasize about building and inter dimensional time travelling craft but in the end the truth is that there is no tech that is available to do so in the real world and leave it in the realm of fiction.

jmccr8

They would  develop non language based concepts, like the concpet of invisible purposeful agents depending on how sensory deprived the y were Total sensory deprivation would  result in a child totally mentally  blank   But it is true that without exposure to language, humans cannot develop either language of the mind(thought) or oral language.

Human Level ( conceptual abstract and symbolic)  thought is language based, and language is critical to its development  

But i am not sure of your point  Everything we see and experience, from  the physical environment through books films etc., to the thoughts we already have, and our dreams, are processed analytically, using language of the mind   The brain is incapable of differentiating between memories of physical experiences, memories of the imagination, and dream memories. It is only through context and reality checking that we can tell one type of memory from another.

Of course i separate fantasy from reality  i actually wrote a treatise on this in university explaining how a human being can live in three worlds (the common shared physical world , a world of inner imagination including reading and media, and a world of very realistic lucid dreams),using one brain, and still differentiate those worlds and experiences very clearly and markedly   it is especially critical to do so, if you have realistic lucid dreams and a good imagination

 But the process of analysing something concrete and something abstract is identical.  

We will only have  new technologies created by people who CAN imagine and create and envision. By people who say, "Oh if i wanted to build a matter transmitter, how would i go about it " Those who cannot dream or imagine cannot create anything new.  i am not sure if other dimensions exist, but if they do then we will one day build craft to travel to them, if we stay alive long enough.       

Edited by Mr Walker

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GlitterRose
On 8/12/2017 at 11:37 PM, Be.cause said:

''The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.''

-H.P. Lovecraft

Only vistas, eh? 

 

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Liquid Gardens
8 hours ago, Be.cause said:

Developped naturally, or was it inherent in nature? Waiting for our simian brains to receive it. 

I'm not sure the distinction you are making between 'developed' and 'inherent'.  Are you saying empathy existed before there was even life in the universe?  Did web-spinning develop naturally or was it inherent in nature, even before there were arachnids?  You were previously stating that empathy was divine and came from 'beyond', by which I thought you meant outside of nature.

8 hours ago, Be.cause said:

Maybe, just maybe, in such a world, the most divine communications aren’t transmitted in a pink blast of gnostic data, but in that most telepathic of human emotions: empathy.

Well, maybe, just maybe, dragons too.  Empathy is not telepathic, it is almost entirely based on cues and information delivered to our senses.  If someone is standing like a statue with a neutral look on their face, empathy doesn't work well.

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Liquid Gardens
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

It is untrue that every path is as valid as any other.  .

And yet it seems like I've read somewhere, "And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should". 

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XenoFish

I find it odd in a way about "the right path", it always seems like those promoting a path are just pushing a way of thinking. My "path" looks like nihilism, but for me, its about living. Living without all the filler. Same great taste, half the calories.:lol:

Plus, I do not want anyone to follow my path. Make your own.

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

As i have said many times,iti is the examples at the extremes which most properly illustrate a truth or morality or idea. And yes while i explained this was my own pov I also believe that some ways of living,some states of mind,are more productive and constructive than ohers.Some produce measurably better results. it is nonsense to simply say,each to his own, or that all ways and paths are of equal value.

Especially when we live in close proximity to each other and in  modern societies everyone's behaviours affect other people.

And indeed i have a duty and an obligation to "meddle or interfere"  or to help all other human beings To sit back and do nothing from my position of  privilege, comfort happiness and wealth would be deeply immoral. Superiority does not come into it as a subjective value it is about measurable outcomes of difernt ways of living. If you truly care about another person you cannot allow them to harm themselves or others where you can prevent it.

It is worrying that you find this attitude  clonceited or pontificating. It was and should be the attitude which strengthens societies protects the weak and vulnerable and reigns in the power of those with wealth and privilege.

It remains the attitude of most in smaller communities, where i have lived almost my whole life, and where obligation and responsibility to community remains more important than individual rights or freedoms to do as you will. My "neighbours" well being IS my concern and my well being is their concern . 

Yet, our experience of is you on UM is you aren't much help, you are quarrelsome which leads to harmful disputes of you belittling posters. Your behavior is harmful, I genuinely think you want to be helpful, but you go about it in a way that leads you to more problems. You and your behavior need your immediate attention, not a poster who decides to make peace with his eventual immortality. 

For your consideration: if you made an effort to understand perspectives unlike your own, or nurtured cognitive empathy, or even simple kindness in the context of the Internet (not to say you don't have these emotions) you could potentially resolve more issues on mutual agreeableness  or at the least catch yourself before you started posting and making things worse, this could give you the time to reflect and avoid a lot of the issues you have.

Just my 2 cents, good luck MW.

 

Edited by Sherapy
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jmccr8
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

They would  develop non language based concepts, like the concpet of invisible purposeful agents depending on how sensory deprived the y were Total sensory deprivation would  result in a child totally mentally  blank   But it is true that without exposure to language, humans cannot develop either language of the mind(thought) or oral language.

Human Level ( conceptual abstract and symbolic)  thought is language based, and language is critical to its development  

But i am not sure of your point  Everything we see and experience, from  the physical environment through books films etc., to the thoughts we already have, and our dreams, are processed analytically, using language of the mind   The brain is incapable of differentiating between memories of physical experiences, memories of the imagination, and dream memories. It is only through context and reality checking that we can tell one type of memory from another.

Of course i separate fantasy from reality  i actually wrote a treatise on this in university explaining how a human being can live in three worlds (the common shared physical world , a world of inner imagination including reading and media, and a world of very realistic lucid dreams),using one brain, and still differentiate those worlds and experiences very clearly and markedly   it is especially critical to do so, if you have realistic lucid dreams and a good imagination

 But the process of analysing something concrete and something abstract is identical.  

We will only have  new technologies created by people who CAN imagine and create and envision. By people who say, "Oh if i wanted to build a matter transmitter, how would i go about it " Those who cannot dream or imagine cannot create anything new.  i am not sure if other dimensions exist, but if they do then we will one day build craft to travel to them, if we stay alive long enough.       

Over the last 6 months you have been talking about a pre-existent language of the mind and have shown no documented scientific evidence that it exists and that you use it to construct mental concepts and this is where we disagree. I have been saying that on can create or improve a concept because they have experience in the world.

Much of your innovations didn't just appear in your mind without having been first created through thousands of years of discoveries. I have never claimed to being so unique that any of the things I build we based solely on my imagination but rather that they are based of things that already exist just like most of the people who build and develop new tech, they are improvements based on what is known.

All the weapons that you made already existed and you read about them not created a new never before seen concept. Even your fantasies are based on the expressions of others, you may have made some modification but they are not new. Concepts in books and movies are stories that have the same basic elements, sure they may vary to some degree but the format is based on elements that already are known.

That was the point of the example that I used with a child that had no or very limited sense experience.

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw

I see there is much talk of roads in life, debates of and declarations about which is the best route to take, yet only a few there are who seem mindful of their destination. Some like the high road with their heads in the clouds, looking down their noses from the heights of their own self-esteem, haughty with disdain for those they deem lower than themselves. Some prefer the low road, creeping along quietly, innocuously, inoffensively, making scarcely a ripple in the waters they cross and not print on the path behind them after they've passed. When they have gone on their way, where they have trodden, there's not a trace they had ever been. Some choose the short way, dashing through life impetuously, with little regard for their own safety or well-being or that of others, immersed in the thrill and exhilaration of life streaming by. Some dawdle at the way stops, fixated on a feature of the landscape, obsessed with a certain event of exultation, waiting in vain for one unique moment to repeat itself, to catch a fruit that had already fallen. Then there are they who choose, in my mind, the best path of all, the scenic route, long, winding, sinuous, sometimes steep but more often of a gentle grade, easy on the feet, with wonders and marvels to meet up with and sprawling vistas and astonishing and sweeping panoramas around the occasional turn. It's the longest way, dipping here, in a shady valley, there, cresting a sun-drenched hill. It requires our constant attention, sometimes easy, sometimes hard, especially when--at last-- our feet grow weary and our footsteps falter. Then, we climb the hill to the city gates at sunset, where we cross the threshold to our final destination, the place where all roads lead, for in that regard alone, all roads are equal. 

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Liquid Gardens

"There is a road, no simple highway
Between the dawn and the dark of night
And if you go no one may follow
That path is for your steps alone

Ripple in still water
When there is no pebble tossed
Nor wind to blow"

Ripple - Grateful Dead

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Hammerclaw

The Long And Winding Road

The long and winding road
That leads to your door
Will never disappear
I've seen that road before
It always leads me here
Lead me to your door

The wild and windy night
That the rain washed away
Has left a pool of tears
Crying for the day
Why leave me standing here
Let me know the way

Many times I've been alone
And many times I've cried
Any way you'll never know
The many ways I've tried

But still they lead me back
To the long winding road
You left me waiting here
A long long time ago
Don't leave me standing here
Lead me to your door

But still they lead me back
To the long winding road
You left me waiting here
A long long time ago
Don't leave me standing here
Lead me to your door

Songwriters: JOHN LENNON, PAUL MCCARTNEY
Edited by Hammerclaw
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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

I see there is much talk of roads in life, debates of and declarations about which is the best route to take, yet only a few there are who seem mindful of their destination. Some like the high road with their heads in the clouds, looking down their noses from the heights of their own self-esteem, haughty with disdain for those they deem lower than themselves. Some prefer the low road, creeping along quietly, innocuously, inoffensively, making scarcely a ripple in the waters they cross and not print on the path behind them after they've passed. When they have gone on their way, where they have trodden, there's not a trace they had ever been. Some choose the short way, dashing through life impetuously, with little regard for their own safety or well-being or that of others, immersed in the thrill and exhilaration of life streaming by. Some dawdle at the way stops, fixated on a feature of the landscape, obsessed with a certain event of exultation, waiting in vain for one unique moment to repeat itself, to catch a fruit that had already fallen. Then there are they who choose, in my mind, the best path of all, the scenic route, long, winding, sinuous, sometimes steep but more often of a gentle grade, easy on the feet, with wonders and marvels to meet up with and sprawling vistas and astonishing and sweeping panoramas around the occasional turn. It's the longest way, dipping here, in a shady valley, there, cresting a sun-drenched hill. It requires our constant attention, sometimes easy, sometimes hard, especially when--at last-- our feet grow weary and our footsteps falter. Then, we climb the hill to the city gates at sunset, where we cross the threshold to our final destination, the place where all roads lead, for in that regard alone, all roads are equal. 

Beautiful, geez you can write! I have reread several times it is so wise, in the end it is all the same...

Edited by Sherapy
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Hammerclaw
22 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Beautiful, geez you can write! 

I am humbled by your praise, but is you, oh Woman, womb-bearer, giver of life who has given life and whose light shines brightly for all the world to see, It is you whom I envy. You have written in large letters on the pages of life, itself, and your descendants will carry the memory of you in their genome, forever and be as numerous as the blades of the grasses of the field.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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