Now It's Finland

[Helen of Annoy]

edit to copy since I didn't quote 

Quote

It's the Globalists (Open Borders) -vs- the Nationalists (Build the Wall).

 

 

No, it's Finland and it's not clear yet what exactly happened, but it certainly will make life harder for common Muslims who had nothing to do with this, while the financial sponsors of terrorism remain untouchable. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Helen of Annoy

[itsnotoutthere]

50 minutes ago, Saru said:

Back on topic please

This is a thread about a terrorist attack, not an excuse for more political mudslinging.

Just for clarification, is discussion about the people behind these terrorist attacks and their ideology off limits?

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

The whole global mess we are in is media driven. The media made something exist where nothing existed before, at least not like they have been falsely reporting it for decades. 

That's the reason it's toning down. Even amongst media professionals there's only so much lying that can be stomached. Their duplicity in it and its results must be getting to them. Those behind the media curtain that is.

 

I think this ratcheting up of racial tensions in the U.S. since Ferguson or whatever events is media-driven.

[Saru]

12 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Just for clarification, is discussion about the people behind these terrorist attacks and their ideology off limits?

No, as long as it's kept civil and respectful of the fact that innocent people have lost their lives.

[papageorge1]

34 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Don`t get me wrong papa, i get what you were trying to say, but my point is, there is NO GOOD thing out of this. Of course the media should not be going bonkers, but we have to be informed about what is happening, people have to see that these muslim fanatics are still flourishing in our countries, we can not turn a blind eye and act as if it is just  another attack, because we do not want to give them the attention they are seeking. 

They want attention, then fine, let the western world see what lunatics our governments have allowed into our countries, let the people see that "he was such a lovely muslim neighbour" has just murdered innocent people because of his barbaric religion.

These attacks are not dying down, they are getting more frequent,  for many years muslim communities have been growing and nothing could be said about it, well now is the time  for people to start opening their eyes to certain areas and see exactly what is going on and if the media have to show that, then thats the way to go. 

Is it a "good thing" that the media are much more subdued with this Barcelona attack? Out of respect for all the innocent victims, I do not believe it is. I am not sure what you mean by bonkers?  I want to see the media report every bit of information they can get on these murderers, be it information which the security services had prior to the attacks. and information on the mosques they attended and what the governments and security services are doing about them now. 

 

I see your point is to rally the masses into action. Well, I can see supporting restricting immigration, tightening up VISA requirements and vetting and increasing police watch efforts, but I still see a big difference between Muslims and Muslim terrorists, so it's tricky.

Edited August 18, 2017 by papageorge1

[freetoroam]

1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

Yes a religion where the vast vast majority of its followers dont pass "the paper bag test". Nice try though 

Are they using this ridiculous old method for muslims? 

You do not need to do a paper bag test on this lot:  it is not about the colour of their skin, but the religion they are bringing into our countries, the mosques they are building, the muslim only communities they are forming, the sharia laws they are trying to put in place and the islamic terrorists which are living right under our noses.

 

 

[Farmer77]

Just now, freetoroam said:

Are they using this ridiculous old method for muslims? 

You do not need to do a paper bag test on this lot:  it is not about the colour of their skin, but the religion they are bringing into our countries, the mosques they are building, the muslim only communities they are forming, the sharia laws they are trying to put in place and the islamic terrorists which are living right under our noses.

Are you aware that in islam it is permissible to lie to your enemies regarding your faith in order to gain the upper hand? Basically a "muslim ban" wouldnt work and wont work. Meaning that we'd be treading on a slippery slope for no good reason. 

[itsnotoutthere]

3 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Are they using this ridiculous old method for muslims? 

You do not need to do a paper bag test on this lot:  it is not about the colour of their skin, but the religion they are bringing into our countries, the mosques they are building, the muslim only communities they are forming, the sharia laws they are trying to put in place and the islamic terrorists which are living right under our noses.

 

 

 

Reminds me of the cartoon I saw recently of Angela Merkel doing the Prince Farquhar speech from the Shrek movie...

'Yes some of you will die, but it's a price I'm willing to pay'

[freetoroam]

10 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

but I still see a big difference between Muslims and Muslim terrorists, so it's tricky.

But the problem is papa, it is not that easy to tell the difference. We have heard so many times by friends, family and neighbours of a terrorist who has just murdered innocent people, how nice they were, how quiet they were, how polite they were. 

it is becoming more difficult who to trust with every terrorist attack. 

[Helen of Annoy]

To be honest, I'm not surprised that certain political platform is related to its target population through cartoons. 

[freetoroam]

14 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Are you aware that in islam it is permissible to lie to your enemies regarding your faith in order to gain the upper hand? Basically a "muslim ban" wouldnt work and wont work. Meaning that we'd be treading on a slippery slope for no good reason. 

If they are lying,then i should hope the immigration service, home security service and boarder controls pick up on this by doing the relevant checks on everyone entering through our borders.

The point is, these muslims do not need to lie, many are already known to the security services. 

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Wait so you think it was whom that defaced my national monuments? By national monuments I certainly hope youre referring to the Lincoln memorials that have been attacked , most likely by racists, and not the confederate memorials. Speaking of which I learned something today that I didnt know , many of these confederate monuments are NEW, as in recently erected. That certainly changes the conversation a bit. 

Sorry mate, but - logically, and by the scientific method - you are WRONG. 

My reasoning is thus: if the statues (etc) had been erected RECENTLY, then I would have to contemplate the possibility of agreeing with you. 

This is clearly - extrapolating the Pauli Exclusion Principle into UM forum debates - a breach of the Laws of Quantum Physics. 

".... The Pauli exclusion principle is the quantum mechanical principle which states that two or more opposing debaters  (debaters with different  spin on President Trump) cannot occupy the same quantum state within a forum post simultaneously...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

< opens SECOND bottle of wine... > 

Hey, it's Friday evening  

Edited August 18, 2017 by RoofGardener

[papageorge1]

14 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

But the problem is papa, it is not that easy to tell the difference. We have heard so many times by friends, family and neighbours of a terrorist who has just murdered innocent people, how nice they were, how quiet they were, how polite they were. 

it is becoming more difficult who to trust with every terrorist attack. 

I hear your point. But what can we do now beyond the ideas I listed already?

[Farmer77]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

Sorry mate, but - logically, and by the scientific method - you are WRONG. 

My reasoning is thus: if the statues (etc) had been erected RECENTLY, then I would have to contemplate the possibility of agreeing with you. 

Friday or not, im still in the office  LOL enjoy the wine for me though! 

Anyways no really im not making that stuff up. I realize many of them are very old, what I didnt realize were how many are out there that have been erected in this the 21st century. Hell as I posted a link to Alabama is getting ready to unveil a new one later this month. 

 

'Changing history'? No – 32 Confederate monuments dedicated in past 17 years 

[RoofGardener]

Hmm.. that is... interesting. 

I mean, obviously you are WRONG... it's just that... I havn't worked out HOW yet.  

I will have to do some research on this. 

Meanwhile, in the spirit of bipartismanship, I offer you this.... 

Edited August 18, 2017 by RoofGardener

[Farmer77]

Just now, RoofGardener said:

I mean, obviously you are WRONG... it's just that... I havn't worked out HOW yet.  

I like your style RoofGardener, I like your style.  

[freetoroam]

3 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I hear your point. But what can we do now beyond the ideas I listed already?

what you have listed, 

 

39 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

restricting immigration, tightening up VISA requirements and vetting and increasing police watch efforts,

but also closing in on their communications through the internet and shutting down every mosque where this is going on:

Quote

There are believed to be 85 Sharia courts in the UK, and last night Channel 4's Extremely British Muslims aired footage captured inside Birmingham's Central Mosque as a council dispensed its strict religious form of justice.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4267956/Rare-look-inside-Muslim-Sharia-Court.html

 

No more religious rights bs! close these places down.

[RoofGardener]

This thread is RADICALLY wandering off-topic. I know I'm as guilty as anybody else (probably more).. but.... 

Could we return to Finland ? (I've been there once... only briefly .. to Helsinki.. it was quite nice... especially the trams). 

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by RoofGardener

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

many of these confederate monuments are NEW, as in recently erected. That certainly changes the conversation a bit. 

If you look into the history, many were put up in the 1910-1940 era.  

I grew up in the South, when i was a kid, I was pretty proud of Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson as many kids are of soldiers.  Their statues are up there with WWI doughboys and WWII GI's.  But there is a difference as I see it now.  They rebelled against the lawful government of the United Stated and they did it to preserve slavery.  You can get all excited about states rights if you want, but the civil war was economic.  The economy of the North was Industrial.  The economy of the South was agrarian and the biggest cash crops for export depended on great amounts of labor.  Tobacco, cotton, and sugar cane need a lot of field hands.  Since the beginning, since before the United States existed, slaves tended those plantations.  The economy of the South was dependent on slave labor.  You can also say that a lot of people didn't own slaves, and you'd be right.  Then as now, it was the elite aristocrats that did own plantations and hundreds of slaves that called the shots.

If you are worried about losing important history, you could suggest making it more complete.  Add to that statue of Robert E Lee sitting on Traveller (part of my childhood history lessons) a klansman in a hood holding his bridle, a guy with a whip on the other side of him about to beat a barefoot black man with a cotton sack and a mother and child being led away in chains.

[Tatetopa]

5 hours ago, aztek said:

wow, it can't be happening, multiculturalism and open border are beautiful things.

I totally agree that these murders are bad.  It seems that you feel justified to put the entire class of Muslims and Middle Easterners into the class of terrorist murderers.  Did I get that wrong?  Don't get me wrong, I am strongly opposed to violence and murder, I don't ignore it, but I try to limit my anger and thirst for justice to the people that did it.

Here is something you can count on seeing in the news in the US every week. Across the nation somewhere between three and seven  drunk white  guys beat their wives to death or shoot them, then go on to molest their step daughter and maybe the woman next door. Should we assume that all white men are violent and untrustworthy?  Why did we let those guys into our country?  

[aztek]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

I totally agree that these murders are bad.  It seems that you feel justified to put the entire class of Muslims and Middle Easterners into the class of terrorist murderers.  Did I get that wrong?  Don't get me wrong, I am strongly opposed to violence and murder, I don't ignore it, but I try to limit my anger and thirst for justice to the people that did it.

yes you got it right,

it is pretty simple really, you either keep letting uncontrolled flood of immigration from a culture alien to yours, whose goal is overtake yours, there will be consequences, do you care more about them or you? your choice. 

Quote

Here is something you can count on seeing in the news in the US every week. Across the nation somewhere between three and seven  drunk white  guys beat their wives to death or shoot them, then go on to molest their step daughter and maybe the woman next door. Should we assume that all white men are violent and untrustworthy?  Why did we let those guys into our country?

yes, that happens too, but it is their country, they live there, what is your point? just cuz it already happens we need to bring more troubles? 

we are not talking about random crime, but entire culture that is hostile to yours,

btw why did you even bring up usa? it is about Finland, isn't it

Edited August 18, 2017 by aztek

[+and-then]

4 hours ago, freetoroam said:

many are already known to the security services. 

Precisely so.  I realize that most Muslims who immigrate have no desire to plot against their host country but they also seem to have no desire to support that country in conflict with their religion.  Those who need holding culpable are the government officials in law enforcement and intelligence who KNOW who these people are and do not even try to remove them.  If the national laws prohibit such preemptive removal then it's time those laws were changed!  No nation owes it to any other group of people to essentially commit suicide to protect them.  The next damned time there's a presser about the (insert ghastly number) of victims and the official states that the perpetrator was known "but", the people should damned well make their way en mass to government offices and raise HELL until the law that allowed that atrocity is changed or stricken from the code.

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

yes you got it right,

it is pretty simple really, you either keep letting uncontrolled flood of immigration from a culture alien to yours, whose goal is overtake yours, there will be consequences, do you care more about them or you? your choice. 

Well I care more about me naturally.  As for the rest, I am not sure if it is fact or opinion.  Does Finland have an uncontrolled flood of immigration?  Who has a goal to overtake the Finnish culture or ours for that matter?  I like the whole innocent until proven guilty approach, and some evidence would be good to make a case.  I am not unaware that there are terrorists and how easy it is to brainwash disenfranchised young people.  That is how gangs recruit too.There may be people who want to come in expressly to do harm.  That is what vetting and tough immigration controls are supposed to do  I think.  Most terrorists fall into the 15-30 age range I think.  That means even the teenage son of a well connected middle aged doctor could be radicalized and should receive extra scrutiny.  I am not so sure the doctor is coming to overtake our culture though.   Rural hospitals in the US depend on Pakistani and other Middle Eastern countries for staffing.

[Helen of Annoy]

3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Quote

Well I care more about me naturally.  As for the rest, I am not sure if it is fact or opinion.  Does Finland have an uncontrolled flood of immigration?

No. 
 

Quote

 

Who has a goal to overtake the Finnish culture or ours for that matter?

 

Overtaking Finland, that would be only Russia, occasionally. They always attempt to delete local culture too. 

US culture is the sum of everything that was brought in the country, by all the immigrants that made US population. It's ridiculous, of course, to even suggest a handful of new immigrants could overtake it. 

 

Quote

 I like the whole innocent until proven guilty approach, and some evidence would be good to make a case.  I am not unaware that there are terrorists and how easy it is to brainwash disenfranchised young people.  That is how gangs recruit too.There may be people who want to come in expressly to do harm.  That is what vetting and tough immigration controls are supposed to do  I think.  Most terrorists fall into the 15-30 age range I think.  That means even the teenage son of a well connected middle aged doctor could be radicalized and should receive extra scrutiny.  I am not so sure the doctor is coming to overtake our culture though.   Rural hospitals in the US depend on Pakistani and other Middle Eastern countries for staffing.

Very well said. Now, if only some of the panic spreaders would realize this is the common sense, while their hysteria is actually helping the actual terrorists, whose goal is to destroy the free and tolerant societies. 

 

[bmk1245]

Now its official:

Quote

Finnish police are investigating Friday's knife attacks as crimes related to terrorism, it said on Saturday.

The suspect was an 18-year Moroccan, police added. The suspected attacker killed two people and wounded eight in the city of Turku on Friday before police shot him in the leg and arrested him.

Reuters

 

PS similar happened today in Russia. In Surgut (Khanty-Mansi) man with the knife injured 8 people. Perpetrator was gunned down by police (pro-surgut - link in Russian).

Edited August 19, 2017 by bmk1245