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Philangeli

Why do muslims emigrate to Christian lands

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, NChSh said:

Maybe you should ask Muslims, I'm sure all of their answers would be different. Also, while many countries may have a majority Christian population, there are very few Christian nations.

True . Only 15 nations have christianity as their state religion and that includes the vatican city.

However a big majority of the world's nations have a  predominantly christian population; and political and socio economic systems based around their traditional christian histories, including ex colonies of europe,  so that, for example laws represent christian values and ethics not pagan, or even islamic, ones. 

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third_eye
On 8/22/2017 at 8:44 AM, Mr Walker said:

... so that, for example laws represent christian values and ethics not pagan, or even islamic, ones. 

and by association much of it does stem from Judaic Origins hence also Jewish and Islamic in nature ...

~

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, third_eye said:

and by association much of it does stem from Judaic Origins hence also Jewish and Islamic in nature ...

~

Judaic, yes. But Islamic ? Islam wasn't created until 600 years after the death of Christ, and.. what... 3000 years after Abraham. It subsumed a lot of Jewish and Christian scripture, but it can hardly be said to have influenced "christian" cultures. (except where it was imposed by invasion).

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third_eye
1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Judaic, yes. But Islamic ? Islam wasn't created until 600 years after the death of Christ, and.. what... 3000 years after Abraham. It subsumed a lot of Jewish and Christian scripture, but it can hardly be said to have influenced "christian" cultures. (except where it was imposed by invasion).

There is as much Judaic in Islam as in Christianity (Orthodox) as one can say there is as much if not more Judaic in Fundamental Islam than Ultra Orthodox Judaism

Quote

 

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Is Islam Jewish? | Psychology Today

Jan 8, 2016 - Many of you may not like hearing this, but the simple truth is that Islam is awfully Jewish—Orthodox Jewish. They have the same general beliefs ...
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Jewish Views on Islam | My Jewish Learning

www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jewish-views-on-islam/
Islam presented a challenge to Judaism which it had not previously faced, for here was a religion just as monotheistic as its mother religion. Here was a concept ...
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IslamicJewish relations started in the 7th century AD with the origin and spread of Islam in the ..... not altogether escape those involved in Aristotle's idea of the unity of souls; and herein he laid himself open to the attacks of the orthodox.
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Judaism / Islam is a religious website dedicated to building bridges between Muslims and ... Similarities between Masjid al-Haram and the Jewish Temple ... wal Jammah, while also conforming to the halacha of normative orthodox Judaism.

~

 

 
Much depends on whose finger is pointing at which passage in whose version of the 'book'
 
~
Edited by third_eye
addendum
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Mr Walker
On 23/08/2017 at 3:17 PM, third_eye said:

and by association much of it does stem from Judaic Origins hence also Jewish and Islamic in nature ...

~

Yes, normally in this conversation i outline how christianity is an evolved product of judaism which is in itself something derived from egyptian and babylonian theologies   However, because the world is predominantly christian rather than  jewish, in this case i just pointed out that most of the west lives by derivatives of  christian ethics and moralities  (which certainly began in many cases as egyptian/babylonian and then judaic)

   Islam is indeed a little different,  and while connected,  is a less "modern"  religion, never having gone a reformation process as christianity did  Also, until the mid 20th century, most islamic states remained feudal monarchies, with nomadic or agrarian, rather than industrialised economies,  with tribal structures and loyalties and were heavily male dominated in custom and power/authority Many still have not had the economic transformations required to politicise and enrich  women and cause a  revolution in the power and  authority of women .

 As a consequence, while christianity has had several hundred years to adapt to evolving modern economic realities, islam has had only about  half a century 

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Sir Smoke aLot

With little research it is easy to factually calculate that only in Turkey and Lebanon there are around 90% refugees from Syria. Considering the state of Lebanon which has obvious problems with development of their country i wonder how do they manage to provide for over million of registered refugees from Syria while there are already refugees from other war destroyed Arab countries?

In Jordan there are Palestinians for decades. As in the region.

Form that, maybe the question in title of this topic would be more accurate if it was something like :

'' Why can't UN security council implement right of return for refugees in Arab world so that Jordan, Lebanon, Syria ( it's free teritories ) could make place for more Arabs who are saving their lives and runing from western world made isis thugs who fight for Israel and US interests? ''

[edit] to add, remarks like this make me sick, as if western world is beacon of salvation for worlds populations and there is no better place to be than in western world, is that answer which you hold and expect? Of course it is. Well, i am sorry m8, wake up, it ain't logical and such logic would fail even in fairytale in front of 5 year old. There are no causes just happenings and it's been that way since WW1.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
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Podo

For the same reason anyone moves anywhere, no matter what their religion is: war, famine, opportunity, being invited. You're going to go to where you think your family is going to be the most safe, that's a pretty universal trait. There are plenty of muslims in my city who operate within society the exact same as any other person, be they christian, atheist, hindu, sihk, buddhist, etc etc. They just eat less pork.

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Tatetopa
On 8/19/2017 at 1:02 PM, freetoroam said:

why would a muslim country not let in a fellow muslim  when in need and yet the western world take them in?

Maybe its the Shia - Sunni split; persecution by one group of the other that might not happen in the west?

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third_eye
17 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 Islam is indeed a little different,  and while connected,  is a less "modern"  religion, never having gone a reformation process as christianity did  Also, until the mid 20th century, most islamic states remained feudal monarchies, with nomadic or agrarian, rather than industrialised economies,  with tribal structures and loyalties and were heavily male dominated in custom and power/authority Many still have not had the economic transformations required to politicise and enrich  women and cause a  revolution in the power and  authority of women .

Perhaps one should add that such a circumstance were thoroughly through no fault of their own, nor owing anything related to the nature of the religion but rather the post war forced conditions that prevailed from the age old social structure of regional tribalism ...

~

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, third_eye said:

Perhaps one should add that such a circumstance were thoroughly through no fault of their own, nor owing anything related to the nature of the religion but rather the post war forced conditions that prevailed from the age old social structure of regional tribalism ...

~

Yes and then throw in the mix of petro dollars and strategic significance which gave them access to the world stage which they would otherwise never have gained 

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freetoroam
5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe its the Shia - Sunni split; persecution by one group of the other that might not happen in the west?

We have seen in the west some muslims not wanting to live side by side with other religions, they can not live with their fellow muslims, and  some wiĺl be damned if they are going to live next to a christian in peace. the patern is growing in parts of the west.

 

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third_eye
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Yes and then throw in the mix of petro dollars and strategic significance which gave them access to the world stage which they would otherwise never have gained 

Aye ... modern weaponry most of all when the population almost at its entirety then was not quite ready for the 20th Century ...

~

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DieChecker

Why someone would wish to move to the West is a no brainer. So much luxury and wealth. Were even the "poor" live better then the majority in many Middle Eastern nations. 

The issues come up when they don't integrate into society, and insist that they keep their previous Middle Eastern ethics/morals/beliefs.

We see much the same in the US when the rougher sort of Mexicans come to live here, and bring more "rough" social graces with them. 

I've been told that in Germany, many of the Turks that came a generation and a half ago are very integrated now, so I think it is simply a matter of time, and that some European-ness will definitely eventually be lost.

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Podo
5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Why someone would wish to move to the West is a no brainer. So much luxury and wealth. Were even the "poor" live better then the majority in many Middle Eastern nations. 

The issues come up when they don't integrate into society, and insist that they keep their previous Middle Eastern ethics/morals/beliefs.

We see much the same in the US when the rougher sort of Mexicans come to live here, and bring more "rough" social graces with them. 

I've been told that in Germany, many of the Turks that came a generation and a half ago are very integrated now, so I think it is simply a matter of time, and that some European-ness will definitely eventually be lost.

I remember reading somewhere that religion and culture tends to take 1.5-2 generations to assimilate. I know that in Canada, the children of immigrants almost universally have more in common culturally to me than they do the culture/religion of their parents' lands. As such, I agree that over time, assimilation happens. It's not a rapid process.

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The Silver Thong

It's a war we ignore 

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Philangeli

Isn't  it the case that we are all descended from immigrants, regardless of our religion?

I was born in northern England, but my paternal grandfather was from Ireland and my maternal grandparents originated from Wales, Portugal and the Basque country.

I have no right to judge anyone coming into this country.

I have not suffered 1/100th as much discrimination as some who are trying to find a better life in a different country.

The most I had to deal with, was when I moved down to London in the 1970's -  because of my northern accent, my Irish surname and my Catholic religion,  I got some stick from the local thicko's. But, it wasn't much, compared to what many others have to put up with.

Who, in the USA or UK, is not descended from immigrants?

Even Queen Elisabeth is descended from Germans and Normans!

Let Bob tell it how it is:

 

 

 

 

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third_eye

THe One True Bob ...

~

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Doug1029

If you are a resident of an Islamic country and you can't stay there because ISIS is looking for you, to which country are you going to flee?  There aren't a whole lot of places where an Islamic fugitive can go.  He really doesn't have a choice.

Doug

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GlitterRose

I still don't know why this is even a topic allowed on here. It's like saying why don't Hindus stay in India, or Jews in Israel. 

It's hardly a spiritual discussion. 

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Will Do

Cheeseburgers. 

 

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 8/20/2017 at 11:20 AM, AlienzTruth said:

It's sad to see how many there are who are afraid of other cultures. Embrace it, learn from them and live together. Geez!
I know many muslims who have celebrated christmas and even birthdays.

Where I work, there is a huge number of Muslim families across the street and shop daily. Despite them basically wearing various cultural clothing, they seem to just take part with the rest of society. And I have had quite a few of them wish me and my co-workers a Merry Christmas during that time. At times, they seem to have a better grasp of local living and learning, than a lot of the locals do. 

And they way I see it, I feel it is for opportunity. I last heard from someone, a lot of the families in the area I talked about, they came here by invite of local businesses and they are being trained in these jobs too. 

I think, where business opportunities are found, sometimes cultural and spiritual priorities take a back seat. 

 

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Hammerclaw

To most of these immigrants--not all, but most of them--life in America is a dream they are eager to realize. To others it's a place of refuge and not completely by choice, where they drown in an alien society, suffering culture shock on a daily basis. I work in a small town with a lot of high tech and defense related businesses and a lot of employees from overseas. It's a polyglot society made up predominately of the local Scotch-Irish but with a large eclectic component of foreign nationals and Hispanic immigrants. With few exceptions everyone seems to fit in, get along splendidly, with little friction, at least in public discourse. The one's who adapt the best are the Hispanics, mostly pleasant and polite, and the ones who have the most difficult time are the Islamics, who--when newly arrived--usually families of tech professionals, seem the most disconcerted--even dismayed. Just shopping for the first is often a traumatic experience for them. 

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third_eye
3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Just shopping for the first is often a traumatic experience for them. 

Carrying a big bag anywhere is a no no ... if you're one with 'Muslim' features, or a Sikh, I've been told ...

~

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Hammerclaw
6 hours ago, third_eye said:

Carrying a big bag anywhere is a no no ... if you're one with 'Muslim' features, or a Sikh, I've been told ...

~

No, the culture shock of mingling with crowds of Westerners for the first time in some of their lives. To be strangers in--what to them--is a very strange land, of strange customs and manner of dress--especially that of woman. Trying to find food untainted by the unclean had one family in acute distress as I recall.

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third_eye
7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, the culture shock of mingling with crowds of Westerners for the first time in some of their lives. To be strangers in--what to them--is a very strange land, of strange customs and manner of dress--especially that of woman. Trying to find food untainted by the unclean had one family in acute distress as I recall.

Yes, it is not something one would share with 'Westerners'

Just walking out in public is such a stress when one has to behave in manner that others would not misconstrue or construct as 'suspicious' behavior just because one has the look that is commonly stereotyped or profiled as Middle Eastern descent or Muslim ...

~

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