Does 'God' Intend to be Proven?

[Aquila King]

45 minutes ago, Guyver said:

YOu'd like me to prove that which cannot be proven?!!  Errr....uh.....no.  

 

Jeez, people... Listen, You stated: "God cannot be proven scientifically" to which I replied: "Prove it", which means: "Prove to me the statement: 'God cannot be proven' to be true."

I'm not asking you to prove God exists!  I'm just asking for you to logically justify your original statement that "God cannot be proven scientifically"!! If you can't prove to me that 'God can't be proven', then you're just asserting something to be true with no facts or reason to back it up. I mean, sure, it may be true that God's existence can't be proven, but at least give me a reason for why you think that before making all sorts of rash judgments.

Jesus Christ. To think I have to spell all this out for you people! Gives me a friggin' headache...

 

*Post Edit: Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh. I'm just real sick atm and in bit of pain.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Aquila King

[XenoFish]

This is my take on such a tired subject. God exist, god doesn't. Does it really matter anyway? Religions are made up and life is a chaos humanity has created. 

[+Hammerclaw]

I sense a bitter pessimist in this thread.

[XenoFish]

12 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I sense a bitter pessimist in this thread.

I don't care what you sense papa Smurf.

[Aquila King]

[+Hammerclaw]

Oh, it's just his way. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

23 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Now look, I don't know if any of this applies to you, but when your entire argument on this thread hinges on presupposed belief system, I figured I'd respond as if it applies just in case. 

First off, sorry you're not feeling well, that sucks.  I don't think I've ever defended 'and then' before, but your response to him here seems off considering your OP, it seems weird to ask a question where you have specifically presupposed that God exists but then criticize replies based on presupposed belief systems about that God.  Especially when you use the term 'God' which implies the Christian one.  

You asked whether God intends to be proven, 'and then' responds with not particularly controversial Christian responses and notes what the Bible says, and you reply essentially noting that Christianity is bunk and just an astrological tale.  Your conclusion may be true, but it's an answer to a different question, "is Christianity true"; it doesn't really address "if we assume God exists does he intend to prove himself", it's instead just an attack on your own assumption that God exists in your original question.  I don't know what possible responses you are envisioning to your OP since there are none that you can't attack on these same grounds ("there's no reason to think your god exists, gods are just ancient explanations of astronomical phenomena, etc") with which you just discarded 'and then's.

When asking about what God intends, on what basis can that be replied to if we can't reference the only two pieces of information we have about God: the Bible and what Christians believe?  It kinda seems like a bait and switch here.

[XenoFish]

So now the positive thinking brigade is after me?

[Aquila King]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, it's just his way. 

Oh I know, I just like messin' with him.  He knows not to take what I say too seriously.

[+Hammerclaw]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So now the positive thinking brigade is after me?

Well, nuts to that.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Aquila King said:

Oh I know, I just like messin' with him.  He knows not to take what I say too seriously.

Do I need to break out the glue sticks and sparkles for this party? Is it going to be one of those Lisa Frank acid trips?

[Podo]

We all need to get schwifty in here.

[Aquila King]

6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

First off, sorry you're not feeling well, that sucks.  I don't think I've ever defended 'and then' before, but your response to him here seems off considering your OP, it seems weird to ask a question where you have specifically presupposed that God exists but then criticize replies based on presupposed belief systems about that God.  Especially when you use the term 'God' which implies the Christian one.  

You asked whether God intends to be proven, 'and then' responds with not particularly controversial Christian responses and notes what the Bible says, and you reply essentially noting that Christianity is bunk and just an astrological tale.  Your conclusion may be true, but it's an answer to a different question, "is Christianity true"; it doesn't really address "if we assume God exists does he intend to prove himself", it's instead just an attack on your own assumption that God exists in your original question.  I don't know what possible responses you are envisioning to your OP since there are none that you can't attack on these same grounds ("there's no reason to think your god exists, gods are just ancient explanations of astronomical phenomena, etc") with which you just discarded 'and then's.

When asking about what God intends, on what basis can that be replied to if we can't reference the only two pieces of information we have about God: the Bible and what Christians believe?  It kinda seems like a bait and switch here.

You bring up some important points so I'll address them one by one.

First off, I don't think the term 'God' necessarily implies the Christian one. I suppose living in the western world where the majority of the religious are Christian, that could be a reasonable assumption but an assumption nonetheless. Not only that but the OP is not a presupposition. It's a proposition, a 'what if' question if you will. I'm not at all presupposing any details about 'God', and if it appears that way then that wasn't my attention. I'm merely suggesting that if what we call 'God' does exist then what if he/she doesn't intend to prove himself? Or what if he does? It's an open question entirely. No presuppositions made.

Second, you're absolutely right when you say I veered a little bit off topic. I probably shouldn't have gone off topic, and yes he gave rather typical Christian responses. However since you "don't know what possible responses I was envisioning to my OP", I'll tell you. I was envisioning an open-minded discussion among people who are genuinely open to exchanging different ideas. That's not only completely reasonable but it's the entire point of an open forum such as this. While I told 'and then' that what I said may not apply to him since I don't really know him, it appeared to me at least that he wasn't approaching this topic with the same kind of open-mindedness. He was simply spouting his indoctrinated from birth style religiosity. The same kind of thing I've spent my whole early life with, which is inherently to it's core closed-minded. I'm telling you this with many years experience in this department both talking to and from that distinct vantage point. Discussing deep topics like the OP with people with this style of beliefs is a go nowhere discussion. Like I said many times, I don't know if 'and then' fit that description, but I figured I'd simply go on ahead and nip the narrow-minded religiosity in the bud before it could possibly take root. It wasn't in any way intended to be a personal attack, simply a means of furthering open-minded discussion.

Third, no, there aren't "none I can't attack on those same grounds". There are plenty deeply religious people who are open-minded enough to discuss the different possibilities, and he could very well have been one of them. As I said, just in case, I figured I'd get my 2 cents worth in once and be done with it so we could nip it in the bud and move on. That's all.

Lastly, it isn't a bait and switch and I didn't say you can't reference the Bible or whatever Christians believe. For God's sake, you can say whatever you want, I don't care. I simply intended to discourage closed-minded religiosity. That's all. And btw, the Bible and what Christians believe aren't the only two pieces of information we have about God BY FAR. That's a rather strong presupposition.

[XenoFish]

I'm more of an existentialist. I think god came as a product of looking for a reason and meaning to existence. Then the idea evolved like all ideas do. It took good forms and some horrible one, though none are true.

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I'm more of an existentialist. I think god came as a product of looking for a reason and meaning to existence. Then the idea evolved like all ideas do. It took good forms and some horrible one, though none are true.

Yeah, I will admit purposeless existence is a rather scary thought to most people.  Easier to cling to the hope that all this chaos has some sort of meaning.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Aquila King said:

Yeah, I will admit purposeless existence is a rather scary thought to most people.  Easier to cling to the hope that all this chaos has some sort of meaning.

A hope that you created or was created for you? The idea that nothing matter is scary to some. Was to me at first. Though nihilistic and pessimistic as I appear to be I am what would be called an pessimistic optimist. I know that life isn't far, that things do not always work out as we wish. But I can not cast blame on any God. I just laugh at the absurdity of it all. I found that the more I tried to become something, I never was anything. So I am that I am. I exist for one moment in the finite infinity, barely making a dent in the whole of human history and I am fine with that. That's the thing I'm getting at. I seem like a depressed empty nihilist, but I'm just away that nothing matter in the long run and by that everything matter is it's meaningful to you. If waking up every morning and going for a jog makes you happy then so be it. Will it make you immortal? Hell no. But it gives you a sense of purpose if only more a brief moment. When it comes to religion, you are not living by your own beliefs, you're living by the beliefs of others. 

[Aquila King]

2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

A hope that you created or was created for you? The idea that nothing matter is scary to some. Was to me at first. Though nihilistic and pessimistic as I appear to be I am what would be called an pessimistic optimist. I know that life isn't far, that things do not always work out as we wish. But I can not cast blame on any God. I just laugh at the absurdity of it all. I found that the more I tried to become something, I never was anything. So I am that I am. I exist for one moment in the finite infinity, barely making a dent in the whole of human history and I am fine with that. That's the thing I'm getting at. I seem like a depressed empty nihilist, but I'm just away that nothing matter in the long run and by that everything matter is it's meaningful to you. If waking up every morning and going for a jog makes you happy then so be it. Will it make you immortal? Hell no. But it gives you a sense of purpose if only more a brief moment. When it comes to religion, you are not living by your own beliefs, you're living by the beliefs of others. 

And that my friend, is the beautiful side of Materialism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a materialist. But there is a certain degree of beauty in the nihilistic nature of materialism. The shear insignificance of your life could be seen as cause for anxiety and depression, or cause to celebrate that you don't have to live up to some huge goal or plan. You can just be you right now in the moment and make the best of it. Sure, the thought of death being the end could be seen as a cause for great grief, but it could also be seen as a cause for living life to the utmost fullest. It makes our life here in this world infinitely more valuable.

So while most I'm sure fear such a radical worldview, there is a subtle beauty to materialism that while I myself don't personally agree with, I still acknowledge it as so.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Aquila King said:

And that my friend, is the beautiful side of Materialism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a materialist. But there is a certain degree of beauty in the nihilistic nature of materialism. The shear insignificance of your life could be seen as cause for anxiety and depression, or cause to celebrate that you don't have to live up to some huge goal or plan. You can just be you right now in the moment and make the best of it. Sure, the thought of death being the end could be seen as a cause for great grief, but it could also be seen as a cause for living life to the utmost fullest. It makes our life here in this world infinitely more valuable.

So while most I'm sure fear such a radical worldview, there is a subtle beauty to materialism that while I myself don't personally agree with, I still acknowledge it as so.

Materialism, spiritualism, both are but opinions. It is not the insignificance of my life it is all our lives. To look at the meaninglessness of all things and see the sheer level of freedom it offers is amazing. Be who you want to be, do what you want to do (within the bounds of your morality), But you will always have to bear the consequences of your actions. The entire responsibility of your life is in your hands. To live as a child of God or have no god at all. Choices. It's all about finding a meaning and purpose to the individual own existence. The meaning to my own existence is to simply enjoy each moment within the finite time I exist. Be those moments good or bad. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

39 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I simply intended to discourage closed-minded religiosity. That's all.

I disagree that open vs closed-mindedness is an issue for your question though, I at least am unaware of there being a better case evidence-wise for the propositions of open minded religions versus the close minded ones, so I don't know why the latter would be discouraged.  I think the discussions that could branch off your OP could be deep, but I don't think the 'intention' question actually is, it seems too easy to exhaust the possibilities.  Non-Christian or other gods of the open minds may or may not intend to be proven, I don't know what information we have to base anything on with out some definition.  If they intend to be proven in the future then there is the possibility we'll yet make the greatest discovery humanity ever has.  If they don't intend to be proven, then we are left to wonder as we are now.  What may motivate them to allow themselves to be proven or not I would argue is unknown, we don't know the mind of god.

[+Liquid Gardens]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's all about finding a meaning and purpose to the individual own existence. The meaning to my own existence is to simply enjoy each moment within the finite time I exist. Be those moments good or bad. 

Exactly, and that meaning is as good as any other.  I have yet to hear an answer as to what exactly about a God existing or an afterlife or anything religious provides any more meaning than the above.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Liquid Gardens said:

Exactly, and that meaning is as good as any other.  I have yet to hear an answer as to what exactly about a God existing or an afterlife or anything religious provides any more meaning than the above.

From my perspective. Religion is a distraction from existence. It in many ways condemns life. Can't do this, can't do that. You must follow the rules, pray everyday, etc. To me this is just absurd. Each of us chooses our own morality. The golden rule which is far older than Christianity is all that I believe we need. Everything else is a matter of opinion. I can not live my life hoping for a better tomorrow (afterlife), I'd rather have lived in heaven while in hell. Because nothing is promised, there are no guarantees. I think that is why I look at the world through a pessimistic lens. Hope for the best, expect the worst. 

[Aquila King]

14 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Hope for the best, expect the worst. 

That's the life motto my best friend for many years used to repeat over and over... Bittersweet memories...

[XenoFish]

It's the motto I live by. The only thing that ever really made sense to me when I was a kid. Stuck with me. Keeps me sharp.

[XenoFish]

[Only_]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

From my perspective. Religion is a distraction from existence. It in many ways condemns life.

Only the darkness of ignorance that Jehovah breath through every crevice of time and space in order to hide the rusty, Guantanamo bay slaughter-house He created and then called 'good'.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Be.cause