Does 'God' Intend to be Proven?

[Mr Walker]

On 31/08/2017 at 6:30 PM, Crazy Horse said:

I am just starting to realise the importance of faith and the belief in "something" as a catalyst to fulfilling our highest potential.

Serveral examples of how powerful a force faith is have been pushed my way recently and your post is another example.

Dr Sheldrake talking about several physic experiments involving telephone calls, text messages and emails, all showed a healthy above average ability to predict who was calling, until there was a sceptic non believer who couldn't predict even  50/50 chance. The placebo and nocebo effect is another example. 

A lot of materialists will see the state of the world and feel helpless. A mechanical universe where you have no free will and there isn't an higher agency ready to help out - this is a very pessimistic out-look and not one that naturally lends itself to positive change, in fact a lot of atheists I know suffer from depression.

"Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest of all, to see life as it is and not as it should be."  Miguel de Cervantes

My belief in God may have been a leap of faith in the first instance but now it is building upon my own personal experiences from moment to moment and from day to day. Mine is not a blind faith any longer and therefore self nourishing.

One other thing Mr Walker, you claim there is a total dichotomy between the physical, material world and the spiritual plane? 

I cannot see a  division between the two, after all, everything arises from God, everything is held within God, our spirit resides within this physical body, all is vibrating at different frequencies but all this energy comes from a single point - God. If our physical vessel is not clean enough, if our hearts and minds are not open and our feelings are deadened, there I don't see us being filled with the Holy Spirit anytime soon.

So this isn't a battle between the physical, material universe and a spiritual one, more a peaceful resolution and coming together of all ideals, philosophies and peoples.

Faith and Love are in my humble opinion, the two keys needed to unlock our inert wisdom and highest potential. 

Actually I  said that it was christ who claimed a dichotomy  between the physical and material.  He preached on it time and time again, and it also comes out incidentally in the gospels.

The clearest examples are in the parables etc where he teaches us not to store up material wealth which will always be lost but put our faith in spiritual wisdoms which cannot be.

Basically he was concerned that those preoccupied with our material existence cannot enter into, or understand, the land of the spirit

He put it simply.  He explained that his message was not for all men because those preoccupied with the material simply won't get it.

Thus his message was for those who understood and valued he spiritual aspect of human existence, and who made it their priority in life.  

faith and love are immaterial, spiritual, values which, i think, is the point christ was making Those things endure. 

[Will Due]

4 hours ago, and then said:

According to God's word in Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

I agree with you that the religion that grew up in the name of Christ is in for an awakening.  When He actually returns it is going to be an earth shaking event and mankind will never be the same again.  I read some of your posted text and never found any clear allusion to Christ's Deity.  Did I miss it or does this book deny it?

 

I have been studying the results of living my life and following Jesus's teachings per the revelation of the re-statement of his life as presented in the Urantia Book for over 35 years. So my comments to you here will be based on all that.

Although Jesus is going to return in person some day, it's likely to be a far off event. But that doesn't mean he isn't already here again now.

On the day of Penticost, he and the Father, sent into the world (actually into the hearts and minds of all of us) the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. 

This spirit is for all practical purposes, the personal presence of the Creator Son of God and sovereign ruler of our local universe, who incarnated on our world as Jesus of Nazareth. 

This is how we are able to have a personal relationship with Jesus and how he is able to teach us from within how to "go to the Father through him."

The "earth shaking" event, in my opinion that you're referring to, is that the true record of his life and teachings has appeared on the scene presented in the UB. It's been here now for just over 60 years but few even know that it exists, and even less have taken the time to take it serious enough to read it.

But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a significant effect, perhaps not as earth shaking as some would expect, but significant enough to inject what is needed to prepare the way for the upstepping of the spiritual quality of life for all future generations.

So you bet, because of all this and more, mankind will never be the same again.

 

5 hours ago, and then said:

According to God's word in Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

I agree with you that the religion that grew up in the name of Christ is in for an awakening.  When He actually returns it is going to be an earth shaking event and mankind will never be the same again.  I read some of your posted text and never found any clear allusion to Christ's Deity.  Did I miss it or does this book deny it?

 

The book upholds the Deity of Jesus of Nazareth and then some. The fact that the Creator Son of God lived here in the likeness as one of us, shared all the struggles and joys the same as we do, is the most earth shaking thing to me personally. There are millions of inhabited worlds in the universe of his creation, so the fact of his incarnation on our world will forever be the privilege of an enormous factor in the potentials of our personal destinies. 

 

The Eternal Son comes not to mortal man as the divine will, the Thought Adjuster indwelling the human mind, but the Eternal Son did come to mortal man on Urantia when the divine personality of his Son, Michael of Nebadon, incarnated in the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth. To share the experience of created personalities, the Paradise Sons of God must assume the very natures of such creatures and incarnate their divine personalities as the actual creatures themselves. 

 

[ellapenella]

27 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I have been studying the results of living my life and following Jesus's teachings per the revelation of the re-statement of his life as presented in the Urantia Book for over 35 years. So my comments to you here will be based on all that.

Although Jesus is going to return in person some day, it's likely to be a far off event. But that doesn't mean he isn't already here again now.

On the day of Penticost, he and the Father, sent into the world (actually into the hearts and minds of all of us) the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth. 

This spirit is for all practical purposes, the personal presence of the Creator Son of God and sovereign ruler of our local universe, who incarnated on our world as Jesus of Nazareth. 

This is how we are able to have a personal relationship with Jesus and how he is able to teach us from within how to "go to the Father through him."

The "earth shaking" event, in my opinion that you're referring to, is that the true record of his life and teachings has appeared on the scene presented in the UB. It's been here now for just over 60 years but few even know that it exists, and even less have taken the time to take it serious enough to read it.

But that doesn't mean there hasn't been a significant effect, perhaps not as earth shaking as some would expect, but significant enough to inject what is needed to prepare the way for the upstepping of the spiritual quality of life for all future generations.

So you bet, because of all this and more, mankind will never be the same again.

 

The book upholds the Deity of Jesus of Nazareth and then some. The fact that the Creator Son of God lived here in the likeness as one of us, shared all the struggles and joys the same as we do, is the most earth shaking thing to me personally. There are millions of inhabited worlds in the universe of his creation, so the fact of his incarnation on our world will forever be the privilege of an enormous factor in the potentials of our personal destinies. 

 

The Eternal Son comes not to mortal man as the divine will, the Thought Adjuster indwelling the human mind, but the Eternal Son did come to mortal man on Urantia when the divine personality of his Son, Michael of Nebadon, incarnated in the human nature of Jesus of Nazareth. To share the experience of created personalities, the Paradise Sons of God must assume the very natures of such creatures and incarnate their divine personalities as the actual creatures themselves. 

 

I've never heard of this book you mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, Aquila King said:

You took an interesting twist to this in going down the 'intent to convert' road.

It's a good idea to not only weigh 'God's' intentions but your own. So I'll ask it another way. Do you think our intentions on whether to try to prove or disprove the existence of God affects God's intentions on the matter?

Well, that's me, always taking twists down things, (whether I'm aware I'm doing it or not!)  Thank you for rephrasing the question. And, if I was bit confusing in my post, sorry.   I was wondering if I was getting my point out. I had to stare at it a couple of times. (had come home from a very intense long shift at work) 

I don't know if God, or a higher power, (if we're talking my spiritual look at things) would really have an intent to be proven or not. Because, I feel, a lot of the 'demand' of proof, I feel by observation, seems to come from the intended converts, or the 'targets' of proselyters. I would feel, that a lot of the already spirituals, the ones who grew up and/or already have a firm belief in God or the like, yeah they would have a spiritual crisis, and wonder at it too. And I would feel, (along with my basis of the many times I may feel I need proof for myself to believe in what I believe) that those who go through their own spiritual crisis would not demand proof for themselves, but wrestle with it only. So, on that note, it seems like the wish to have proof, doesn't come from the already believed, but the ones who are targeted by them. And to me, I would think would make sense. 

Many times over, I have come to observe, on various message boards like this one, (and in real life as well) that there are threads started, or questions raised, about what proof does one need to believe. And of course, these things are created by the believed, to wonder how they can then convert. (Like it's a deal breaker or something.) If the quest for proof of God does come from other situations, other than from none-God believers after they are being proselytised, please let me know. Anyone. But it seems more from those who already don't believe in God. 

So, that's why I don't see it as an issue really, (though this thread and it's question I think is a great thought provoking one  ) Because it's not that I see that God intended or did not intend proof of himself, but those who are being pushed to believe in him. Which makes sense to me, because how can you believe in something, when you already have a pre-set observation of no proof of God in the first place. You can't talk yourself into believing, that would cause a conflict in your soul, heart, and mind and that would bite back later on. 

Which makes me wonder, on God's outlook on disbelievers questioning and understandingly asking for proof, when one is asked to only believe no matter what. 

I have come across a lot of discussions, where some believers are discussing that it's in the process of 'just believing' that makes up one to being a true follower. That you just have to believe, and that's only is what needed, and you should do it, because that is what makes you a true believer and then this is followed up by a relief from the other, who thinks you're being saved from eternal damnation. I don't think, that really makes sense in the long run. How is it, if it's in the art of believing, that is part of the process in being a true follower? To me, that doesn't make sense, because that just makes it something to watch over you for doing, when in the end, to believe just so you look good believing to get 'points'. Almost looking to me, like a waste of time. I think, it's probably having a true belief, so you understand why you're behaving role you are in as a believer. In fact, going through life, questioning yourself and why you believe, would get in the way, to follow the path that you're suppose to believe in. I think, that's too much 'clutter' in your soul to deal with, when you behave accordingly to your spiritual path. 

I would think, a caring higher power, wouldn't want you to go through that. Kind of like, needing a test to be part of that 'special' club. I would think, a higher power, God, what have you, would want you to do good stuff and pay attention to that. Meaning, the wish that everyone would believe, and probably would go through the effort to give proof to gain that goal. I think it's kind of the situations where someone would want a friend to be going through tests to become your friend, or parents making their children prove their love for them, and does that really sound like a good way to have loyalty to you? Would you want to be a friend to someone, who feels you have to be tested to be your friend, or parents giving you love, because you did something to prove it them? I think, friends, true friends, wouldn't do that, your friends for a more natural reason, and a loving parent loves you unconditionally. (I don't put down jobs, because the intent is to do the job you were hired for, and it's for reasons of what the job is suppose to give and the payback is understandable pay so you can survive. And that would not be something that would be honestly compared to this.) 

I would understand, that if God or other otherworldly beliefs, would think our human bodies wouldn't comprehend them or it, but then there would be an understanding why some wouldn't believe, and would understand one's disbelief by reason of the situation. (I kind of believe, it would work out in the afterlife, if that is the case.) Even then, some form of message would still be tried to be convened and with the note of 'at your convenience', type of thing. To tie this up, I don't think God really wouldn't intend to have proof, because of the situations involved. (I also come to this understanding, through my own experiences of my belief.) 

I also think, that there is a much higher goal to it's agenda of it's religion, and that the wish to be proven just for the sake of being known, may seem to be a waste of time. Bottom line, if God wants to be proven, I would think God would go through the trouble. *shrugs* 

That's how I see it.  

[Will Due]

15 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I've never heard of this book you mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

If you find it in yourself to be interested in checking out the Urantia Book, you can do so best at this link, which is the book and only the book as it is found in print, without all the distractions the other online websites include where you can read the book:

http://bigbluebook.org/

 

If perchance you decide to give it a read however, I would forego reading the book online and order yourself a hard copy. It should be about 20 bucks.

Actually having the thing in your hands is an experience unto itself.

My two cents. 

 

 

[Guyver]

9 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Well first of all, like I've said, we have to dissect this 'God' down into it's individual parts and then build it up from there.

Thankfully there are a number of scientists who've already done just that.  Dr. Rupert Sheldrake is a prime example of such scientists, as he's done numerous studies regarding things such as:

• the sense of being stared at
• dogs who know when their owners are coming home
• animal premonitions of disasters
• telephone telepathy

 

None of these things prove God exists.  Even if all these things can be measured and confirmed scientifically, it proves the phenomenon exists....not that God himself exists.  

[ellapenella]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

If you find it in yourself to be interested in checking out the Urantia Book, you can do so best at this link, which is the book and only the book as it is found in print, without all the distractions the other online websites include where you can read the book:

http://bigbluebook.org/

 

If perchance you decide to give it a read however, I would forego reading the book online and order yourself a hard copy. It should be about 20 bucks.

Actually having the thing in your hands is an experience unto itself.

My two cents. 

 

 

Does it stray away from the prophetic texts of the bible in anyway? You would of have to have a background in Biblical studies, an understanding to know if it did, or how would anyone know.

[Guyver]

9 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Well first of all, like I've said, we have to dissect this 'God' down into it's individual parts and then build it up from there.

Unfortunately atheistic materialism dominates the scientific community, and systemized oppression of any opposing viewpoints operates under the guise of 'skepticism', in which any and/or all scientists who dare venture out into these topics risk being labeled a part of the fringe...

It is sad, but the reality is that there have already been numerous attempts to scientifically document the divine, but they continue to be hushed up and swept under the rug due to materialist biases...

Anyway, my point I guess is that there are ways of scientifically measuring the divine, as many people have already done numerous time. You simply don't hear about it because it isn't deemed a part of the 'main stream.'

The way that the scientific method works is to view everything with skepticism in a sense.  Everything that gets measured or offered as a working hypothesis or theory is based on the idea that the experiments must be repeatable, and when better data is generated which refutes the idea, it gets discarded.  We also have the issue of the divine and how it's perceived.  ESP can exist, and be a real thing....yet still not prove that God exists.

It just means that things exist which we don't understand.  But just because we don't understand something doesn't mean that we can say - well that must be God then.  If God wanted to reveal himself to us....it seems he would be quite capable of doing so.  

[GlitterRose]

On 8/29/2017 at 10:25 PM, Aquila King said:

Prove it.

Well, for one thing, God doesn't have to cooperate. 

God doesn't have to show up to be examined. 

In the absence of God showing up, how exactly could science prove God? 

Edited September 1, 2017 by ChaosRose

[GlitterRose]

The same thing goes for aliens, ghosts, angels, demons, leprechauns, and the invisible pink unicorn. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

Well, for one thing, God doesn't have to cooperate. 

God doesn't have to show up to be examined. 

In the absence of God showing up, how exactly could science prove God? 

How many more threads are we going to get that basically ask the very same question?

[GlitterRose]

Just now, XenoFish said:

How many more threads are we going to get that basically ask the very same question?

Inorite?

[GlitterRose]

I actually think the OP makes my own argument for me, though. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by ChaosRose

[GlitterRose]

Kind of a funny sort of argument.

The OP proposes that God doesn't intend to be proven, and then asks us to prove why science can't prove God. 

But you just...

nevermind. 

[GlitterRose]

You really want a conundrum. Try proving that the invisible pink unicorn is both invisible and pink. 

[AZDZ]

15 hours ago, Guyver said:

"I'm going to kill you."  I'm telling you before hand that I'm going to kill you and cause you to suffer.  That way, when i kill you and make you suffer; you will know that it's me who's doing it.

There.

I don't understand how people buy into this type of thinking.

The bible makes it pretty clear, god is long suffering for all to believe but some still refuse. Some continually spit in his face denying every evidence at every opportunity then we wonder why he may be p***ed off? In the end saying, "But, there was no evidence of you!" won't be a valid excuse.

Btw, being targeted for physical termination by God isn't the worst he can do us. It's equivalent to being sent to the corner for a time out, a soul can come back from that. There are far worse punishments at his disposal than death. *shudders*

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, AZDZ said:

The bible makes it pretty clear, god is long suffering for all to believe but some still refuse. Some continually spit in his face denying every evidence at every opportunity then we wonder why he may be p***ed off? In the end saying, "But, there was no evidence of you!" won't be a valid excuse.

Btw, being targeted for physical termination by God isn't the worst he can do us. It's equivalent to being sent to the corner for a time out, a soul can come back from that. There are far worse punishments at his disposal than death. *shudders*

Be afraid. Be very afraid. 

Now kneel.

Yeah, that just doesn't sound like something I'm interested in worshiping. 

[XenoFish]

If god needs my belief and will punish me for not believing, then god is not deserving of belief. I am not a victim of "spiritual paranoia" like many of you are. You've created your own demons and guilt complexes because "god said so." How is that even a good thing? Do good or go to hell, believe in me or go to hell. Why? Why even bother believing such things? It is beyond me. 

[GlitterRose]

Just now, XenoFish said:

If god needs my belief and will punish me for not believing, then god is not deserving of belief. I am not a victim of "spiritual paranoia" like many of you are. You've created your own demons and guilt complexes because "god said so." How is that even a good thing? Do good or go to hell, believe in me or go to hell. Why? Why even bother believing such things? It is beyond me. 

Why not just do good things because it's nice?

Why need the threat of hell and the promise of heaven in order to do them?

[GlitterRose]

It sounds like something that a spiritual 2-year old would need. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, ChaosRose said:

Why not just do good things because it's nice?

Why need the threat of hell and the promise of heaven in order to do them?

I don't know. I guess the reward of paradise is more motivating that just being a good person for the sake of it. Which also means that you're only being good because of a reward. Which isn't authentic.

The threat of hell is to keep the sheep in line. Rule by fear. I never understood this about the Abrahamic religions. The constant need for daddy approval.

[GlitterRose]

Now don't be naughty or Santa won't bring you any toys. 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

It sounds like something that a spiritual 2-year old would need. 

Pretty much. It's like doing what daddy says or you get the belt. Not exactly a conductive relationship. Plus the saturation level some people have with these beliefs, that in itself is damn scary. 

[XenoFish]

I mean I just love threads about revelations and ufo's. Biblical numberphila etc.

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I mean I just love threads about revelations and ufo's. Biblical numberphila etc.

Biblical numberphilia...lol.