Does 'God' Intend to be Proven?

[Aquila King 22,629]

The big debate for several millennia is whether or not the existence of what many people call 'God' can be proven. Some say they can prove God exists, others vise versa. Still others say God's existence can't be proven either way, or at the very least that we simply have no way of knowing at this time.

But what if God never intended to be proven to exist in the first place? What if being proven to exist is irrelevant to his/her goal(s)? What if this whole debate that's been raging for thousands of years was intended to take place, or at the very least meant to remain an open question?

Of course this is all under the assumption that God does exist, and that God has a plan; just that the 'plan' doesn't involve proving his/her own existence. I have my own ideas concerning what we call 'God' (as we all do), but when it comes to these big questions I honestly don't know. Just figured I'd throw this idea out there since there seems to be many people operating under some pretty big assumptions.

[papageorge1 6,339]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

The big debate for several millennia is whether or not the existence of what many people call 'God' can be proven. Some say they can prove God exists, others vise versa. Still others say God's existence can't be proven either way, or at the very least that we simply have no way of knowing at this time.

But what if God never intended to be proven to exist in the first place? What if being proven to exist is irrelevant to his/her goal(s)? What if this whole debate that's been raging for thousands of years was intended to take place, or at the very least meant to remain an open question?

Of course this is all under the assumption that God does exist, and that God has a plan; just that the 'plan' doesn't involve proving his/her own existence. I have my own ideas concerning what we call 'God' (as we all do), but when it comes to these big questions I honestly don't know. Just figured I'd throw this idea out there since there seems to be many people operating under some pretty big assumptions.

Over time I have graduated from the Abrahamic dualistic God concept (God and us are separate) to a more eastern/Vedic non-dualistic (God and us are not-two) concept. I think the core of all of us is the One Consciousness that permeates everything. The only way of 'proving' God is by quieting our noisy ego conscious levels and experiencing that One/God/Brahman when all is still ( no easy feat). But that is still an experience for that individual and not a proof that can be shared with others.

[cluey 939]

then that would make any version of any religion and bible a load..........

[Rlyeh 17,816]

God is more useful being unproven (the threat of torture also greatly helps). Proof could very well work against "divinely inspired" dogma.

[Aquila King 22,629]

39 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Over time I have graduated from the Abrahamic dualistic God concept (God and us are separate) to a more eastern/Vedic non-dualistic (God and us are not-two) concept. I think the core of all of us is the One Consciousness that permeates everything. The only way of 'proving' God is by quieting our noisy ego conscious levels and experiencing that One/God/Brahman when all is still ( no easy feat). But that is still an experience for that individual and not a proof that can be shared with others.

As have I.

Although, I think it's a little of both honestly. Just as you and I are separate conscious entities (dualism), we exist in the same universe/consciousness energy field and are therefore one (non-dualism).

It's a lot like what we see in quantum mechanics, where particles are waves and waves are particles.  Difficult for us in our current conscious state to fully wrap our heads around, yet we know this to be true. 

[doctor wu 167]

How would anyone know what 'God' intends...?

 

 

[Aquila King 22,629]

48 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

How would anyone know what 'God' intends...?

[and then 47,980]

2 hours ago, doctor wu said:

How would anyone know what 'God' intends...?

 

 

The Bible...?  

A perfect example is the ancient book of Ezekiel, the Hebrew prophet. Chapter 38 speaks of a time in the "last days" when a specific confederation of nations will come against Israel.  This version of Israel will apparently be at peace and will BELIEVE they have nothing to fear. Also known as the war of Gog of Magog, the participants are generally considered to be Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan and some of the northern African states as well as some of the "STANS" nations in the south of Russia.  

THIS is what God says will happen at that time: 

I will execute judgment on him (Gog) with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

So, in answer to the OP - yes, God does mean to "Prove He exists"
He says that then many nations will KNOW He is the Lord.  It doesn't say they will willingly accept his sovereignty.  Pity, that.

Edited August 29, 2017 by and then

[doctor wu 167]

29 minutes ago, and then said:

The Bible...?  

A perfect example is the ancient book of Ezekiel, the Hebrew prophet. Chapter 38 speaks of a time in the "last days" when a specific confederation of nations will come against Israel.  This version of Israel will apparently be at peace and will BELIEVE they have nothing to fear. Also known as the war of Gog of Magog, the participants are generally considered to be Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan and some of the northern African states as well as some of the "STANS" nations in the south of Russia.  

THIS is what God says will happen at that time: 

I will execute judgment on him (Gog) with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’

So, in answer to the OP - yes, God does mean to "Prove He exists"
He says that then many nations will KNOW He is the Lord.  It doesn't say they will willingly accept his sovereignty.  Pity, that.

And that's all well and good ...if one believes the Bible is the word of God and interprets it so.

 

[and then 47,980]

14 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

And that's all well and good ...if one believes the Bible is the word of God and interprets it so.

 

  Sorry, I thought your question is whether God will prove His existence.  If such occurrences as I just explained, occurred, would that not constitute proof, to you?  If I'm misunderstanding the question, please clarify.  I believe that during the age of the Gentile Church, He is welcoming in those who make the choice to believe and obey - to the extent they are able.  No one will ever be perfect in the flesh.  So the logical takeaway, if that is correct, would be that there would be no NEED to believe if He proved His existence before the Church Age ends.  Do you understand?  When the events that Ezekiel describes come to fruition, the time of the Gentiles will essentially be over and He will PROVE His existence to His chosen (Israel) the same way He ALWAYS had to do it  Miraculous interventions on their behalf, to literally save them from destruction.  Remember the disciple, Thomas?  Doubting Thomas, as he became known?  THAT is a picture of the descendants of Israel today - writ large.

[doctor wu 167]

1 hour ago, and then said:

  Sorry, I thought your question is whether God will prove His existence.  If such occurrences as I just explained, occurred, would that not constitute proof, to you?  If I'm misunderstanding the question, please clarify.  I believe that during the age of the Gentile Church, He is welcoming in those who make the choice to believe and obey - to the extent they are able.  No one will ever be perfect in the flesh.  So the logical takeaway, if that is correct, would be that there would be no NEED to believe if He proved His existence before the Church Age ends.  Do you understand?  When the events that Ezekiel describes come to fruition, the time of the Gentiles will essentially be over and He will PROVE His existence to His chosen (Israel) the same way He ALWAYS had to do it  Miraculous interventions on their behalf, to literally save them from destruction.  Remember the disciple, Thomas?  Doubting Thomas, as he became known?  THAT is a picture of the descendants of Israel today - writ large.

I don't accept the Bible as being automatically the word of God  or that it's even accurate for that matter....does that clarify things..?

[Xeno-Fish 109,297]

If there is a god, I suppose it doesn't care about us really. So why would it (if it exists) prove itself. All religious text are man-made and none are "divinely inspired". What you have is the mythos of goat herders.

[Aquila King 22,629]

31 minutes ago, and then said:

  Sorry, I thought your question is whether God will prove His existence.  If such occurrences as I just explained, occurred, would that not constitute proof, to you?  If I'm misunderstanding the question, please clarify.  I believe that during the age of the Gentile Church, He is welcoming in those who make the choice to believe and obey - to the extent they are able.  No one will ever be perfect in the flesh.  So the logical takeaway, if that is correct, would be that there would be no NEED to believe if He proved His existence before the Church Age ends.  Do you understand?  When the events that Ezekiel describes come to fruition, the time of the Gentiles will essentially be over and He will PROVE His existence to His chosen (Israel) the same way He ALWAYS had to do it  Miraculous interventions on their behalf, to literally save them from destruction.  Remember the disciple, Thomas?  Doubting Thomas, as he became known?  THAT is a picture of the descendants of Israel today - writ large.

Now look, I don't know if any of this applies to you, but when your entire argument on this thread hinges on presupposed belief system, I figured I'd respond as if it applies just in case. If not then just ignore me and move on.

I used to be one of the most hardcore devout believers in Christianity (as interpreted through modern day eyes) as there ever was. I was highly active in church and evangelism, and I used to get online on forums and whatnot spouting my religiosity in hopes of saving souls from eternal damnation same as you. I'm telling you this because I've been there. Right in your shoes. And it saddens me to see other people in the same shoes I wore for most of my life trekking down a road to nowhere.

I don't mean to be short, abrupt, or abrasive in any way; however sometimes the best way to remove a bandage is to do it as quickly as possible, even if it may be painful to hear. I don't mean to disrespect your belief system in any way. You have every right to believe and say whatever you want and stick to it, however I also have every right to express myself in any way so long as I do so with kindness and respect. That's why I'll only say this once, then you can do with it what you will. I don't want a lengthy debate, nor do I have any real interest in a lengthy discussion with someone who is clearly highly indoctrinated into their "faith". Once again, I don't intend to sound mean, but I remember myself when I was deeply indoctrinated as well, and I know that my closed mindedness simply would not allow any contrary ideas to take root. Doubt was seen as a mortal sin and an attack from the devil, therefore I must defend my position no matter what. On top of that I felt compelled to win souls by convincing others my belief system was true. Thankfully I'm nothing like that anymore, so let me just say through both personal experience and enlightenment: You're wasting your time.

If you're not interested in possibly having your current faith shaken then I advise you to stop reading beyond this point.

You can either read the following in the spoilers, watch the video, or both. Whichever suits you.

Spoiler

 

There are actually in total 15 preChristian Gods had traits and stories exactly like Jesus Christ. For example, In 900 BC Krishna was born of a virgin with a star in the East signaling his coming. A tyrant slaughtered thousands of infants trying to kill the new born king. He was a teacher in the temple and a healer who performed miracles, was crucified between two thieves and resurrected from death. Around the same time period in Greece lived the God Attis, born of a virgin on December 25th .

He was martyred on a crucifix, died for 3 days and was resurrected.

Mithra was a Persian God in 1200 BC who was born of a virgin on December 25th, traveled around with 12 disciples, performed miracles, died for 3 days and was resurrected. He was called the truth, the light, and was worshipped on Sunday.

The very same basic storyline that came out of Constantine’s Council of Nicea in 325 AD already existed for thousands of years.

Christianity resembled certain elements of Roman belief, particularly the worship of Mithra, or Mithraism. As ‘Protector of the Empire,’ Mithra was closely tied to the sun gods, Helios and Apollo. Mithra's birthday on December 25, close to the winter solstice, became Jesus's birthday. Shepherds were to have witnessed Mithra's birth and were to have partaken in a last supper with Mithra before he returned to heaven. Mithra's ascension, correlating to the sun's return to prominence around the spring equinox, became the Christian holiday of Easter.

Christians took over a cave-temple dedicated to Mithra in Rome on the Vatican Hill, making it the seat of the Catholic Church. The Mithraic high priest's title, Pater Patrum, soon became the title for the bishop of Rome, Papa or Pope. The fathers of Christianity explained the remarkable similarities of Mithraism as the work of the devil, declaring the much older legends of Mithraism to be an insidious imitation of the one true faith.

Everything Christians believe about Jesus, the Romans and Persians believed about Mithra. Sunday was the sacred day for Mithraists because he was a Sun God and they called this The Lord’s Day … The writer, H. G. Wells, pointed out that many of the phrases used by Paul for Jesus were the same as those used by the followers of Mithra. The Liturgy of Mithra is the Liturgy of Jesus.

When Paul says: ‘They drank from the spiritual rock and that rock was Christ’ (I Corinthians 10:4), he was using exactly the same words found in the scriptures of Mithra. Only the names were changed. In the Gospels, Peter became the Christian ‘rock’ on whom the new church would be built. The Vatican Hill in Rome was said to be sacred to Peter, but this place was also claimed, much earlier, to be sacred to Mithra and many Mithric remains have been found there!

All the following preChristian deities shared the myth of a virgin birth on December 25th, crucifixion and resurrection:

• Chrishna of Hindostand
• Budha Sakia of India
• Salivahana of Bermuda
• Zulis and Osiris of Egypt
• Odin of the Scandinavians
• Crite of Chaldea
• Zoroaster of Persia
• Mithra of Persia
• Baal Phoenecia
• Taut of Phoenecia
• Indra of Tibet
• Bali of Afghanistan
• Jao of Nepal
• Wittoba of the Bilingonese
• Thammuz of Syria
• Atys of Phrygia
• Xamolxis of Thrace
• Zoar of the Bonzes
• Adad of Assyria
• Deva Tat of Siam
• Sammonocadam of Siam
• Alcides of Thebes
• Mikado of the Sintoos
• Beddru of Japan
• Hesus of the Druids
• Eros of the Druids
• Bremrillah of the Druids
• Thor of the Gauls
• Cadmus of Greece
• Hill of the Mandaites
• Feta of the Mandaites
• Gentaut of Mexico
• Quezalcotle of Mexico
• Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
• Ischy of the island of Formosa
• Divine Teacher of Plato
• Holy One of Xaca
• Fohi of China
• Tien of China
• Adonis of Greece
• Prometheus of Caucasus
• Ixion of Rome
• Quirinus of Rome

Why do the same stories, dates, numbers, and symbols show up repeatedly in religious myths and texts all across the ancient world?

This is related to the winter solstice or midwinter festival when the Sun is at the least powerful point in its cycle in the northern hemisphere. They said that on the solstice, our December 21/22nd, the Sun had 'died'. Three days later the 25th they said the Sun was born or born again. Thus we have a long line of Sun gods given the 'birthday' of December 25th. The Jesus of the Gospels is a symbol of the Sun and the stories include a host of other Mystery school knowledge and esoteric concepts.

For three days, December 22nd , 23rd, and 24th, the Sun rises on the exact same latitudinal (declinations) degree. This is the only time in the year that the Sun actually stops its movement northward or Southward in our sky. On the morning of December 25th the Sun moves one degree northward beginning its annual journey back to us in the Northern Hemisphere, ultimately bringing our spring. Anything steadily moving all year long that suddenly stops moving for three days was considered to have died. Therefore, God’s Sun who was dead for three days, moves onedegree northward on December 25th and is symbolically born again!

Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, is the star in the East. On Dec. 24th it aligns with the three brightest stars in Orion’s belt which are called (and have been called since ancient times) the “three kings.”

The three kings line up perfectly with Sirius pointing to the exact spot in which the Sun will rise the next morning. The larger constellation in which this takes place was known to the ancients as the “manger” or the “cradle” which is visible just before dawn on Dec. 25th . So the three kings or three magi effectually “follow” the star in the East to the manger, the birthplace of God’s Sun at the Winter Solstice. “Easter” also derives from the Eastern Star Sirius.

The three gifts of the magi are Frankincense, Myrrh, and Gold. Frankincense is an amber resin that was burned at solar temples, Myrrh was known as “tears of the Sun,” and Gold too long represented the Sun in the ancient world.

The recurrent “virgin” theme represents the constellation Virgo, which is Latin for virgin. “The ancient glyph for Virgo looks like an M which explains the M names of “virgin mothers” like Jesus’ mother Mary, Adonis’ mother Myrra, Buddha’s mother Maya, and Horus’ mother IsisMeri. Virgo is also called the House of Bread and the zodiacal symbol shows a woman holding a chaff of wheat, representing the August/September time of harvest.

Bethlehem also means “House of Bread” and is a reference to the constellation Virgo, not a place on Earth. At its lowest point the sky on Dec. 22nd the Sun resides in the Southern Cross or the Crux, a cross formed by stars symbolizing the crucifixion.

After steadily traveling downward since the last solstice, the Sun stops movement at the Southern Crux for 3 days then rises again the Son dies on the cross and after 3 days is resurrected.

To ancient man the most dangerous, feared enemy was the unknown darkness of night, thereby making the Sun, the light, heaven’s gift to the world. Without its light we cannot see, without its warmth we cannot move, without its energy our food cannot grow. Our very lives depend on the energy emitting from the Sun, making it our life and savior. God so loves the world that he has given his only begotten Sun so that we may have everlasting life.

That is why in Deut 4:24 and Heb 12:29 God is “consuming fire in heaven.”

The Prince of Darkness is the Dark Evil, the Devil, Devil. God is the Good; God’s Sun is the Light of the World, and the Prince of Peace. The Peace he brings is Solace – Solace again from the word Solar, meaning Sun. In the Egyptian personification, the Prince of Darkness was known as “Set” and the Sun was known as “Horus.” So every night at SunSet the Dark Prince overtakes the world. But every morning the Sun is born again at Sun Rise, Horus is risen on the Horizon.

This is where we get the word “Hero,” the cheer “Hooray!” and also why an interpretation of the zodiac is a Horoscope.

At daybreak this wonderful newborn child, God’s Sun is Born Again, Horus is Risen. Even today when the Sun comes up we see it on the ‘HorusRisen’ or ‘Horizon.’ His life was also divided into 12 parts or steps across Heaven each day: 12 Horus = 12 Hours. This is the origin of the modern 12 Step Program. Horus is the (newborn) Sun, or the Bringer of the Light. In Latin, Light Bringer is Lucis, or Lucifer, or Luke … God’s Sun brought His wonderful light to the world, and distributed it over 12 months.

So it was said, God’s Sun had 12 companions, or helpers, that assisted His lifesaving work. So it was, God’s Sun had 12 apostles (or months) that followed Him religiously through His life. Incidentally, now you know why the American jury system has 12 jurors who help bring the truth to light, with the ‘Light of Truth’ ... Keep in mind God’s Sun symbolically represented the light of truth, but was condemned by His enemies who could not endure the light of truth in their life. When we are confronted with the harsh realities of life, the light of truth, which we do not wish to face, and which runs counter to our views, such truth is judged in your mind, or judged in the temple area of your brain, and put to death in your head!

Therefore God’s Sun –The Truth and The Light – is put to death at Golgotha, or Place of the Skull, located somewhere between your ears! This putting to death of the light of truth in your mind is always accompanied by two thieves: Regret for the past and Fear of the future. And of course God’s Sun goes to His death wearing a corona – Latin for Crown of Thorns.

So your “temples” or at the Golgatha (which means Place of the Skull), God’s Sun, the light of truth, is judged and crucified along with the two thieves of past and future.

The Sun’s corona, the plasma atmosphere around the Sun, is then allegorically used as the Son’s (Latin translation) Crown of Thorns.

Cultures all over the ancient world kept track of time and seasons based on the movement of the Sun. They invented circular sundials and sun calendars which recorded daily and yearly time (lunar calendars recorded months). This method of circular solar based time keeping was used by the ancient Mexicans, Mayans, Incas, Aztecs, Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Celtics, Aryans and more. (JM.com)

Out of these circular, pictorial Sun calendars developed the Holy cross. The Sun is portrayed on a cross – a circle with perpendicular lines intersecting in the middle, the horizontal axis representing the Spring and Autumn Equinoxes, the vertical axis representing the Summer and Winter Solstices.

This is the reason you often see a circle around Christian, Celtic, ancient and modern crosses.

Since the Earth experienced 4 different seasons, all the same and equal (in time) each year, the round Sun calendar was divided into 4 equal parts. This is also why we have, in the Bible, only 4 Gospels. Of this point, there can be no doubt. The 4 Gospels represent the 4 seasons which collectively tell the entire story of the life of God’s Sun. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John are Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. This is why the famous painting of ‘The Last Supper’ pictures the 12 followers of the Sun in four groups (of three) the seasons!

My point is, Christianity is merely an Astrological Anthropomorphized tale describing the nature of the heavens.

 

 

[Will Do 6,778]

54 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

My point is, Christianity is merely an Astrological Anthropomorphized tale describing the nature of the heavens.

 

Following is quoted a summary of how in the coming generations, Christianity will either adapt, or fade away and be displaced.

 

 

The Future

195:10.1

Christianity has indeed done a great service for this world, but what is now most needed is Jesus. The world needs to see Jesus living again on earth in the experience of spirit-born mortals who effectively reveal the Master to all men. It is futile to talk about a revival of primitive Christianity; you must go forward from where you find yourselves. Modern culture must become spiritually baptized with a new revelation of Jesus’ life and illuminated with a new understanding of his gospel of eternal salvation. And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus’ disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men. Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience.

195:10.2

The beauty and sublimity, the humanity and divinity, the simplicity and uniqueness, of Jesus’ life on earth present such a striking and appealing picture of man-saving and God-revealing that the theologians and philosophers of all time should be effectively restrained from daring to form creeds or create theological systems of spiritual bondage out of such a transcendental bestowal of God in the form of man. In Jesus the universe produced a mortal man in whom the spirit of love triumphed over the material handicaps of time and overcame the fact of physical origin.

195:10.3

Ever bear in mind—God and men need each other. They are mutually necessary to the full and final attainment of eternal personality experience in the divine destiny of universe finality.

195:10.4

“The kingdom of God is within you” was probably the greatest pronouncement Jesus ever made, next to the declaration that his Father is a living and loving spirit.

195:10.5

In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve.

195:10.6

The call to the adventure of building a new and transformed human society by means of the spiritual rebirth of Jesus’ brotherhood of the kingdom should thrill all who believe in him as men have not been stirred since the days when they walked about on earth as his companions in the flesh.

195:10.7

No social system or political regime which denies the reality of God can contribute in any constructive and lasting manner to the advancement of human civilization. But Christianity, as it is subdivided and secularized today, presents the greatest single obstacle to its further advancement; especially is this true concerning the Orient.

195:10.8

Ecclesiasticism is at once and forever incompatible with that living faith, growing spirit, and firsthand experience of the faith-comrades of Jesus in the brotherhood of man in the spiritual association of the kingdom of heaven. The praiseworthy desire to preserve traditions of past achievement often leads to the defense of outgrown systems of worship. The well-meant desire to foster ancient thought systems effectually prevents the sponsoring of new and adequate means and methods designed to satisfy the spiritual longings of the expanding and advancing minds of modern men. Likewise, the Christian churches of the twentieth century stand as great, but wholly unconscious, obstacles to the immediate advance of the real gospel—the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

2,085

Many earnest persons who would gladly yield loyalty to the Christ of the gospel find it very difficult enthusiastically to support a church which exhibits so little of the spirit of his life and teachings, and which they have been erroneously taught he founded. Jesus did not found the so-called Christian church, but he has, in every manner consistent with his nature, fostered it as the best existent exponent of his lifework on earth.

195:10.10

If the Christian church would only dare to espouse the Master’s program, thousands of apparently indifferent youths would rush forward to enlist in such a spiritual undertaking, and they would not hesitate to go all the way through with this great adventure.

195:10.11

Christianity is seriously confronted with the doom embodied in one of its own slogans: “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” The non-Christian world will hardly capitulate to a sect-divided Christendom. The living Jesus is the only hope of a possible unification of Christianity. The true church—the Jesus brotherhood—is invisible, spiritual, and is characterized by unity, not necessarily by uniformity.Uniformity is the earmark of the physical world of mechanistic nature. Spiritual unity is the fruit of faith union with the living Jesus. The visible church should refuse longer to handicap the progress of the invisible and spiritual brotherhood of the kingdom of God. And this brotherhood is destined to become a living organism in contrast to an institutionalized social organization. It may well utilize such social organizations, but it must not be supplanted by them.

195:10.12

But the Christianity of even the twentieth century must not be despised. It is the product of the combined moral genius of the God-knowing men of many races during many ages, and it has truly been one of the greatest powers for good on earth, and therefore no man should lightly regard it, notwithstanding its inherent and acquired defects. Christianity still contrives to move the minds of reflective men with mighty moral emotions.

195:10.13

But there is no excuse for the involvement of the church in commerce and politics; such unholy alliances are a flagrant betrayal of the Master. And the genuine lovers of truth will be slow to forget that this powerful institutionalized church has often dared to smother newborn faith and persecute truth bearers who chanced to appear in unorthodox raiment.

195:10.14

It is all too true that such a church would not have survived unless there had been men in the world who preferred such a style of worship. Many spiritually indolent souls crave an ancient and authoritative religion of ritual and sacred traditions. Human evolution and spiritual progress are hardly sufficient to enable all men to dispense with religious authority. And the invisible brotherhood of the kingdom may well include these family groups of various social and temperamental classes if they are only willing to become truly spirit-led sons of God. But in this brotherhood of Jesus there is no place for sectarian rivalry, group bitterness, nor assertions of moral superiority and spiritual infallibility.

2,086

These various groupings of Christians may serve to accommodate numerous different types of would-be believers among the various peoples of Western civilization, but such division of Christendom presents a grave weakness when it attempts to carry the gospel of Jesus to Oriental peoples. These races do not yet understand that there is a religion of Jesus separate, and somewhat apart, from Christianity, which has more and more become a religion about Jesus.

195:10.16

The great hope of Urantia lies in the possibility of a new revelation of Jesus with a new and enlarged presentation of his saving message which would spiritually unite in loving service the numerous families of his present-day professed followers.

195:10.17

Even secular education could help in this great spiritual renaissance if it would pay more attention to the work of teaching youth how to engage in life planning and character progression. The purpose of all education should be to foster and further the supreme purpose of life, the development of a majestic and well-balanced personality. There is great need for the teaching of moral discipline in the place of so much self-gratification. Upon such a foundation religion may contribute its spiritual incentive to the enlargement and enrichment of mortal life, even to the security and enhancement of life eternal.

195:10.18

Christianity is an extemporized religion, and therefore must it operate in low gear. High-gear spiritual performances must await the new revelation and the more general acceptance of the real religion of Jesus. But Christianity is a mighty religion, seeing that the commonplace disciples of a crucified carpenter set in motion those teachings which conquered the Roman world in three hundred years and then went on to triumph over the barbarians who overthrew Rome. This same Christianity conquered—absorbed and exalted—the whole stream of Hebrew theology and Greek philosophy. And then, when this Christian religion became comatose for more than a thousand years as a result of an overdose of mysteries and paganism, it resurrected itself and virtually reconquered the whole Western world. Christianity contains enough of Jesus’ teachings to immortalize it.

195:10.19

If Christianity could only grasp more of Jesus’ teachings, it could do so much more in helping modern man to solve his new and increasingly complex problems.

195:10.20

Christianity suffers under a great handicap because it has become identified in the minds of all the world as a part of the social system, the industrial life, and the moral standards of Western civilization; and thus has Christianity unwittingly seemed to sponsor a society which staggers under the guilt of tolerating science without idealism, politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without restraint, knowledge without character, power without conscience, and industry without morality.

195:10.21

The hope of modern Christianity is that it should cease to sponsor the social systems and industrial policies of Western civilization while it humbly bows itself before the cross it so valiantly extols, there to learn anew from Jesus of Nazareth the greatest truths mortal man can ever hear—the living gospel of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Will Due

[Mr Walker 6,711]

Great post,  Will The heart of christ's message was the existence of a total dichotomy between the material and the spiritual worlds.  He said most humans will choose the material path in life but some will see the spiritual one 

Follow the material and you lose every thing  of real value, including your life.

Follow the spiritual and you gain the world, PLUS eternal life.

The OP question is an intriguing one to which I have a clear personal answer. But it is not really relevant.

 God exists and is real and powerful I know this because of his existence in my world, in my heart and in my mind.    That is is how we know anything is real  Humans don't need others to prove to them what is real They are perfectly evolved and adapted to do this  So my answer is that god proves his existence to those who  are ready for it. God  manifests to, and proves his existence to, those he chooses OR who choose god.  

The part which is not really relevant to me personally is that belief is much  more powerful than knowledge. PPeople who believe in god through faith are more highly motivated and driven than those who know he exists as a real being.

Ideas beliefs and concepts all have more power in the human mind than facts and knowledge.

Plus the only honest way to follow god is through a self driven belief/faith .Not  knowledge  of a real and powerful being  Knowing god is real means i have no choice,  but for one who believes, that is a choice freely made and uninfluenced by knowledge 

[Aquila King 22,629]

55 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Following is quoted a summary of how in the coming generations, Christianity will either adapt, or fade away and be displaced.

 ...There are so many things wrong with the above passage I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin...

[Will Do 6,778]

44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Great post,  Will The heart of christ's message was the existence of a total dichotomy between the material and the spiritual worlds.  He said most humans will choose the material path in life but some will see the spiritual one 

Follow the material and you lose every thing  of real value, including your life.

Follow the spiritual and you gain the world, PLUS eternal life.

The OP question is an intriguing one to which I have a clear personal answer. But it is not really relevant.

 God exists and is real and powerful I know this because of his existence in my world, in my heart and in my mind.    That is is how we know anything is real  Humans don't need others to prove to them what is real They are perfectly evolved and adapted to do this  So my answer is that god proves his existence to those who  are ready for it. God  manifests to, and proves his existence to, those he chooses OR who choose god.  

The part which is not really relevant to me personally is that belief is much  more powerful than knowledge. PPeople who believe in god through faith are more highly motivated and driven than those who know he exists as a real being.

Ideas beliefs and concepts all have more power in the human mind than facts and knowledge.

Plus the only honest way to follow god is through a self driven belief/faith .Not  knowledge  of a real and powerful being  Knowing god is real means i have no choice,  but for one who believes, that is a choice freely made and uninfluenced by knowledge 

I couldn't agree more with everything you just said Mr Walker!

I'll only add that in addition to believing in God, in order to really know him, one needs to simply become determined to try to do his will.

It's through the experiences of attempting to know what his will is at any given moment individually, by testing, by trying to do it, that one will learn what it is. How to live like intended.

How to find the way.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Will Due

[Guyver 5,067]

12 hours ago, Aquila King said:

The big debate for several millennia is whether or not the existence of what many people call 'God' can be proven. Some say they can prove God exists, others vise versa. Still others say God's existence can't be proven either way, or at the very least that we simply have no way of knowing at this time.

But what if God never intended to be proven to exist in the first place? What if being proven to exist is irrelevant to his/her goal(s)? What if this whole debate that's been raging for thousands of years was intended to take place, or at the very least meant to remain an open question?

Of course this is all under the assumption that God does exist, and that God has a plan; just that the 'plan' doesn't involve proving his/her own existence. I have my own ideas concerning what we call 'God' (as we all do), but when it comes to these big questions I honestly don't know. Just figured I'd throw this idea out there since there seems to be many people operating under some pretty big assumptions.

There's that old saying, "It's good to be the king."  It's good to be the king because you have the power to do whatever the eff you want to do.  Nice.  Yet, being the king comes with some serious baggage....there's stuff to do.  Now, God....if he exists, and I think he does, cannot be proven scientifically.  You can't solve him like a math equation or measure him like electrical current.  

To those who believe God exists, some claim that he has proven himself to them.  I'm one of those.  Now, what God is or how to explain him ( as I feel it would be improper to refer to God as it) - I don't have the answers.  I don't believe in religion.  The proofs I have that convince me of God are very few and far between, but they are there.  There's just so much, I could go on an hour long rant/exploration.

Native Americans refer to God as Great Spirit.  Jesus said God is Spirit.  the Apostle Paul claims that God can be understood by nature - the things which are made. Yet, many claim nature is completely indifferent.  Paul also said God is invisible.   But, consider the atom.  Or the universe.  I feel very convinced that there is more to this life, there is reason and purpose beyond spreading genes.  There is an energy there....a source....a consciousness maybe....I don't have the right words to express it.  I'm rambling so I'll stop.  I'll just put this out there.  I know that invisible beings exist.  I know this from experience.  I consider them angels, but I don't really have a clue.  So, bottom line is that I guess there's just alot to learn.  

 

[Aquila King 22,629]

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

God.... cannot be proven scientifically.

Prove it.

[Susanc241 1,386]

"Humans don't need others to prove to them what is real They are perfectly evolved and adapted to do this."

I had to smile when I read that.  I thought of all the naysayers and derogatory comments made on this site about people who truly believe the earth is flat, that Bigfoot, fairies, aliens, ghosts etc exist.  Need I go on?

"I will execute judgment on him (Gog) with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’"

Plague (epidemic or pandemic disease); rain, hailstones (weather); burning sulphur (erupting volcanos or possibly some nuclear event) does not prove the existence of any higher power than nature, or perhaps regarding the last example, man's stupidity in making weapons of mass destruction.  It is because early man needed to find a reason, an explanation for all these natural occurrences that he had no power to control, nor understand, that the idea of a higher power or gods came into being - in the minds of men, and nowhere else.  They needed an explanation for the things they couldn't explain any other way.  As these ideas evolved and became more structured a human hierarchy developed, leading to priests and shamans and similar, who found they had respect bestowed on them because they claimed, probably by an early understanding of weather patterns most didn't understand at that time, to be able to placate and please the gods. Therefore it was dangerous to go against the gods as they controlled the weather, and subsequent food supply (in basic terms).  The priesthood etc soon found that they had power and control over the masses (such as they were at the time) as a result.....a few millennia later and here we are and we all know the result of religions vying for dominance in this world.

Nothing else in the argument for or against gods/God makes any sense to me than the above, which is a simplistic overview, I admit.  The bible is a mishmash of writings that we know aren't complete (many texts have been lost, deliberately destroyed or damaged beyond recovery over the millennia) and Constantine and his 'committee' actually picked and chose what would go into the bible to fit their own ideas of Christianity at the time.  No offence meant to anyone, but these are my beliefs, and I respect all who think different.  Nothing presented to me so far (and I am nearly 70) has persuaded me to think any differently.  

[Mr Walker 6,711]

2 hours ago, Susanc241 said:

"Humans don't need others to prove to them what is real They are perfectly evolved and adapted to do this."

I had to smile when I read that.  I thought of all the naysayers and derogatory comments made on this site about people who truly believe the earth is flat, that Bigfoot, fairies, aliens, ghosts etc exist.  Need I go on?

"I will execute judgment on him (Gog) with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord.’"

Plague (epidemic or pandemic disease); rain, hailstones (weather); burning sulphur (erupting volcanos or possibly some nuclear event) does not prove the existence of any higher power than nature, or perhaps regarding the last example, man's stupidity in making weapons of mass destruction.  It is because early man needed to find a reason, an explanation for all these natural occurrences that he had no power to control, nor understand, that the idea of a higher power or gods came into being - in the minds of men, and nowhere else.  They needed an explanation for the things they couldn't explain any other way.  As these ideas evolved and became more structured a human hierarchy developed, leading to priests and shamans and similar, who found they had respect bestowed on them because they claimed, probably by an early understanding of weather patterns most didn't understand at that time, to be able to placate and please the gods. Therefore it was dangerous to go against the gods as they controlled the weather, and subsequent food supply (in basic terms).  The priesthood etc soon found that they had power and control over the masses (such as they were at the time) as a result.....a few millennia later and here we are and we all know the result of religions vying for dominance in this world.

Nothing else in the argument for or against gods/God makes any sense to me than the above, which is a simplistic overview, I admit.  The bible is a mishmash of writings that we know aren't complete (many texts have been lost, deliberately destroyed or damaged beyond recovery over the millennia) and Constantine and his 'committee' actually picked and chose what would go into the bible to fit their own ideas of Christianity at the time.  No offence meant to anyone, but these are my beliefs, and I respect all who think different.  Nothing presented to me so far (and I am nearly 70) has persuaded me to think any differently.  

People dont need others to prove what is real, and to differentiate it from  what exists only in their mind, unless their mind is very young or infirm, or affected by drugs,  lack of sleep, etc

However, humans construct beliefs to make order from chaos and to allow them to cope and exist in the face of unknowns.   Beliefs have nothing to do with knowledge, and indeed belief and disbelief cannot exist, logically, where you have knowledge.

And so people construct beliefs about bigfoot and gods and aliens. when they have no evidence for their existence. 

BUT if you encountered any one of these, a s a physical reality, you are perfectly equipped to be able to determine its physical reality.  It is what we are evolved to do in our environment.

You don't need external proofs or evidences to validate your experience, and your testing of the physical reality of any entity or object, unless your mind is not functioning as it should, in which case you  will have trouble accurately  perceiving all reality.   If you can tell when an apple on your table is real, then you can tell when an alien or bigfoot or a an angel is real.  

[Mr Walker 6,711]

5 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Prove it.

Some argue that, if it can be proven to exist, then it cannot be a god  

[Aquila King 22,629]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Some argue that, if it can be proven to exist, then it cannot be a god  

Then allow me to clarify: Prove that statement to be true.

Why must God remain unproven? I'm not saying that isn't possible, but the only logical way to know if that is the case is to prove that God's existence can't be proven. Otherwise it's a rather convenient blind assertion.

[doctor wu 167]

13 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Prove it.

[Guyver 5,067]

14 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Prove it.

YOu'd like me to prove that which cannot be proven?!!  Errr....uh.....no.