Russia probes kick into high gear

[Tiggs]

Cambridge Analytica employed non-American citizens to work on US election campaigns in apparent violation of federal law, despite receiving a legal warning about the risks.

The company’s responsibilities under US law were laid out in a lawyer’s memo to the company’s vice-president, Steve Bannon, British CEO Alexander Nix and Rebekah Mercer, daughter of billionaire owner Robert Mercer, in July 2014. It made it clear that most senior and mid-level positions involving strategy, planning, fundraising or campaigning needed to be filled by US citizens.

Source: The Guardian

[Merc14]

19 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, that's all you have, a list accusations and guesses. I'll wait for facts, thank you very much and let the chips fall where they may. It should be an interesting ride. Charges are only that; charges. They have to be proven.

Tigg's response is pretty funny given that everyone knows there will never be any trial of those Russians.  What a ridiculous waste of money this whole Mueller investigation is.

[.ZZ.]

9 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

What were you expecting the DOJ to produce, pre-trial, exactly?

When are you expecting those who have been charged to turn themselves in exactly?

[+Hammerclaw]

6 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

What were you expecting the DOJ to produce, pre-trial, exactly?
 

Sure. Innocent until proven guilty, and all.

Proven is the operative word. I expect nothing assume nothing and remain open to a factual resolution. I've seen trials where everyone knew the accused were obviously guilty and yet they walked away, scot-free and grinning. 

[Agent0range]

Since when are non-US citizens deserved of due process?  Guantanemo might have something to say about that.

[Tiggs]

8 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Tigg's response is pretty funny given that everyone knows there will never be any trial of those Russians.  What a ridiculous waste of money this whole Mueller investigation is.

1. It inhibits them from being able to travel outside of Russia.
2. It gives the US Government targets for individual sanctions.

Strangely enough -- I'm not in favor of letting people interfere with a US Presidential election, and get away with it.

[Merc14]

7 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

1. It inhibits them from being able to travel outside of Russia.
2. It gives the US Government targets for individual sanctions.

Strangely enough -- I'm not in favor of letting people interfere with a US Presidential election, and get away with it.

I just laughed out loud at your link.  Individual sanctions!   Thanks Herr Mueller but we could have indicted those amateurs at 1/10th the cost.  Oh well, at least you have that to indictment to soothe your soul. 

Sorry Tiggs, I am not going to engage with you any further than this given the repercussions that occur every time we have a debate.  I'll let the inevitable play out and allow the facts to speak for themselves.

[Tiggs]

Just now, Merc14 said:

I just laughed out loud at your link.  Individual sanctions!   Thanks Herr Mueller but we could have indicted those amateurs at 1/10th the cost. 

Mueller's entire team costs less than Trump's flights to Mar-a-Lago. I know which one I'd prefer to fund.
 

Just now, Merc14 said:

Oh well, at least you have that to indictment to soothe your soul. 

Nineteen of them, so far.
 

Just now, Merc14 said:

Sorry Tiggs, I am not going to engage with you any further than this given the repercussions that occur every time we have a debate.

As you're already aware, Moderator's recuse themselves from any moderating decisions made in threads they're actively posting in.

[+and-then]

9 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

I just laughed out loud at your link.  Individual sanctions!   Thanks Herr Mueller but we could have indicted those amateurs at 1/10th the cost.  Oh well, at least you have that to indictment to soothe your soul. 

Sorry Tiggs, I am not going to engage with you any further than this given the repercussions that occur every time we have a debate.  I'll let the inevitable play out and allow the facts to speak for themselves.

 

12 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Mueller's entire team costs less than Trump's flights to Mar-a-Lago. I know which one I'd prefer to fund.
 

Nineteen of them, so far.
 

As you're already aware, Moderator's recuse themselves from any moderating decisions made in threads they're actively posting in.

Short of some outright vulgarity or truly disrespectful personal attack, no one should be sanctioned in any way for engaging a Mod that takes part in a discussion...IOW's everyone should be treated the same.  There are times when such calls have seemed, uh, marginal, to me.  But the rules are made for the continuity of the site and overall respectful dialogue so, I guess perceived inconsistencies just have to be allowed for and chalked up to personal perception.  

 

[+and-then]

10 hours ago, Tiggs said:

He's literally indicted 13 Russians for interference with the 2016 Election.

Obama filtered taxpayer funds through Israeli NGO's to attempt to defeat Bibi Netanyahu in his last election.  He also used our IC to spy on U.S. Congress members and Israeli diplomats who were rallying against the Iran "deal".  Being a Constitutional scholar, he probably avoided breaking any laws while behaving so shabbily but then again... maybe, not so much.  

Trump may self-destruct at some point but his detractors aren't going to take him down.  In fact, this "investigation" long ago became counter-productive RE - "removing Trump".  His support is solid a year out and he's making some positive changes as well as literally GUTTING O'Barry's legacy.  Let the band play on...

[Merc14]

24 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Mueller's entire team costs less than Trump's flights to Mar-a-Lago. I know which one I'd prefer to fund.
 

Nineteen of them, so far.
 

As you're already aware, Moderator's recuse themselves from any moderating decisions made in threads they're actively posting in.

 

Don't need another ban so I will relent and let the case I have made play out.

[Merc14]

5 minutes ago, and then said:

Obama filtered taxpayer funds through Israeli NGO's to attempt to defeat Bibi Netanyahu in his last election.  He also used our IC to spy on U.S. Congress members and Israeli diplomats who were rallying against the Iran "deal".  Being a Constitutional scholar, he probably avoided breaking any laws while behaving so shabbily but then again... maybe, not so much.  

Trump may self-destruct at some point but his detractors aren't going to take him down.  In fact, this "investigation" long ago became counter-productive RE - "removing Trump".  His support is solid a year out and he's making some positive changes as well as literally GUTTING O'Barry's legacy.  Let the band play on...

Obama's team did a whole lot more than that AT and it is all coming to a head soon. We already know that the Attorney General has appointed a prosecutor with as wide a ranging scope as Herr Mueller and now it seems there is already a grand jury impaneled.  I expect indictments shortly after Horowitz drops his report, signalling the end of his limited investigation, and the beginning of the real prosecutions instead of Mueller's political BS.

[+and-then]

12 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

We already know that the Attorney General has appointed a prosecutor with as wide a ranging scope as Herr Mueller and now it seems there is already a grand jury impaneled.

I guess I've been busy lately and missed this news.  Do you have a link?  It sounds like wonderful, long-overdue news!

[RoofGardener]

13 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The conclusion doesn't have to be 'true' for the thought process to have been sound. See: the process of pretty much every scientific discovery ever.

An easy to understand example for ya: Because cold water is already cold, it should freeze faster than boiled water. The logic is sound, even if the predicted result is incorrect.

I could see your logic @ExpandMyMind, and your conclusion was entirely reasonable based on the facts available. I don't understand why some people are giving you a hard time about this !

This is especially the case because you didn't say "this WILL happen"... you said "this MAY happen". So to speak. 

[Hankenhunter]

9 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Tigg's response is pretty funny given that everyone knows there will never be any trial of those Russians.  What a ridiculous waste of money this whole Mueller investigation is.

Deflector shield on full again? The only waste of money is that tax payers are paying for Trumps Lawyers. Talk about a raw deal. Bottom feeding swamp dwellers indeed.

Hank

[+DieChecker]

18 hours ago, Tiggs said:

He's literally indicted 13 Russians for interference with the 2016 Election.

But what are the odds this is anything other then Mueller doing something, so he can say he did something? I think the indictments are simply political theater.

I'd rather see the investigation provide how these attacks happened and forward that to people who can prevent it from happening again.

Those who get a hole in their castle wall, and then argue over who allowed it to happen, are doomed to have the same invaders coming through the breach, unless the brick it back up and re-enforce it.

9 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Cambridge Analytica employed non-American citizens to work on US election campaigns in apparent violation of federal law, despite receiving a legal warning about the risks.

The company’s responsibilities under US law were laid out in a lawyer’s memo to the company’s vice-president, Steve Bannon, British CEO Alexander Nix and Rebekah Mercer, daughter of billionaire owner Robert Mercer, in July 2014. It made it clear that most senior and mid-level positions involving strategy, planning, fundraising or campaigning needed to be filled by US citizens.

Source: The Guardian

From what I read, it wasn't Facebook, or any corporate decision that caused this, but one individual using his legally obtained password and access to sell the data. That is not a flaw in Facebook, or any of these consulting firms, but in a individual.

I'd argue that in order to say Trump used illegal data, it would have to be argued that he, or any of his many minions, actually knew where, and how, Cambridge Analytica go that data. I've heard much defense of Fusion GPS, because they were just passing on data they didn't know the sources for. How is this any different on the Trump, or Clinton, end of it?

Politifact says it is a Half-Fact (partly true) that Obama did the same data mining, using the same methods (in general) that Cambridge Analytica did. That's coming from a center-left source, so everyone should be happy with the source.

 

[Hankenhunter]

7 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Obama's team did a whole lot more than that AT and it is all coming to a head soon. We already know that the Attorney General has appointed a prosecutor with as wide a ranging scope as Herr Mueller and now it seems there is already a grand jury impaneled.  I expect indictments shortly after Horowitz drops his report, signalling the end of his limited investigation, and the beginning of the real prosecutions instead of Mueller's political BS.

And nary a link to be seen. Citation please? You boys and your imaginations. You'll may get some respect on forum if you post some proof once in a while, unless you're afraid we'll see where you're getting all these ridiculous guesses and conspiracy theories from.

Hank

Edited March 24, 2018 by Hankenhunter

[ExpandMyMind]

56 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

But what are the odds this is anything other then Mueller doing something, so he can say he did something? I think the indictments are simply political theater.

I think that the American who was arrested and can corroborate parts of the accusations kinda blows the 'it's made up by Mueller so he doesn't get fired' conspiracy theory right out of the water. There are of course other reasons that it's ridiculous: Rosenstein would also have to be in on it, for one, the actual existence of evidence, another. 

I also don't think, like others do, that these indictments are pointless. The US has a long history of catching foreign criminals - like hackers, for example - when they slip up and enter a US-friendly country. 

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

I could see your logic @ExpandMyMind, and your conclusion was entirely reasonable based on the facts available. I don't understand why some people are giving you a hard time about this !

This is especially the case because you didn't say "this WILL happen"... you said "this MAY happen". So to speak. 

I think he wanted to argue just for the sake of arguing.

And, indeed, I did put a 'likely' qualifier in there to make it clear that it was a guess, not a claim. 

[+DieChecker]

16 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I think that the American who was arrested and can corroborate parts of the accusations kinda blows the 'it's made up by Mueller so he doesn't get fired' conspiracy theory right out of the water. There are of course other reasons that it's ridiculous: Rosenstein would also have to be in on it, for one, the actual existence of evidence, another. 

I also don't think, like others do, that these indictments are pointless. The US has a long history of catching foreign criminals - like hackers, for example - when they slip up and enter a US-friendly country. 

I don't think they are pointless. Those people need to be identified and punished if possible. But I think they were thrown out to the media as political fodder. The FBI could have (probably would have) indicted them even if there was no Mueller Investigation. Their indictment isn't a product of Mueller, but would have happened naturally anyway. And, if so, then would it have made the national news as a lead story?

People now point at the indictments and are like, "SEE! Things are happening!!", when really nothing is happening other then Mueller is the ringmaster of a pony show. That is not to say that he's not found something really good and is keeping it to himself, but i'd imagine if he did have some big news, some of those "sources familiar with the investigation", would have told some more damning things to everyone by now.

[ExpandMyMind]

19 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I don't think they are pointless. Those people need to be identified and punished if possible. But I think they were thrown out to the media as political fodder. The FBI could have (probably would have) indicted them even if there was no Mueller Investigation. Their indictment isn't a product of Mueller, but would have happened naturally anyway. And, if so, then would it have made the national news as a lead story?

People now point at the indictments and are like, "SEE! Things are happening!!", when really nothing is happening other then Mueller is the ringmaster of a pony show. That is not to say that he's not found something really good and is keeping it to himself, but i'd imagine if he did have some big news, some of those "sources familiar with the investigation", would have told some more damning things to everyone by now.

Oh the timing of their release was obviously tactical/political. Trump has already tried to fire Mueller and he did fire Comey, so the investigation did need protection, which the indictments provide. I don't see a problem with that and I'm not sure why anyone else would. 

And of course 'things are happening'. Trump, against his entire intelligence community and along with Fox News and others, had always claimed that Russia did not interfere to help Trump. He outright said he believed Putin over his own government. After the indictments it was impossible for anyone to deny. That was massive.

Edited March 24, 2018 by ExpandMyMind

[Lilly]

Prediction: Within a few months all of this will go from screaming "Trump Russia" to screaming "Trump Affairs".

The media are already lining up various women who claim to have had affairs with Trump. It won't matter that there's a long history of US Presidents who have had affairs, used the services of prostitutes and even may have been involved in sexual assaults. The attacks on Trump will just go on and on as the majority of mainstream media outlets are now controlled by or strongly support the Democratic party. This will not stop. Even if Trump is impeached or steps down the attacks will simply transfer over to Mike Pence. Pence will be attacked for his religious beliefs, or simply for his association with Trump, or with other conservatives...something will be 'found' and the attacks will continue. 

This is what I think will happen. I don't care to debate my personal opinion here. Just wanted to put forth my opinion on what will be the next 'big thing' in the future. 

[Astra.]

At this point of time, I wont make any predictions per se in regards to Mr Trump and what may lay ahead in the long term. What I do wonder about sometimes though, is the 'possibility' that he may eventually resign before any 'possible' impeachment happens due to the overall Mueller investigation. I guess time will tell in whether or not he even gets to finish his first term of the presidency, depending on what arises (fact wise) concerning him and this investigation. 

I realise that Mr Trump seems to be made of Teflon, with his constant denials and shrugging things off so to speak, but I think that everyone has a pressure point that can only be pushed so far before breaking, or the walls start closing in too much.

Also, with the many women whom have come forth with their allegations towards him, of either sexual misconduct, or these alleged affairs that they have claimed to have had with him (Karen McDougal) being the most recent  http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-23/ex-model-karen-mcdougal-claims-she-was-in-love-with-donald-trump/9581678 well I simply can't help but wonder how long can all of this go on for before it eventually wears him down in one way or another. 

Again, these are only my thoughts - irrelevant of whether I like the man or not. 

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

And of course 'things are happening'. Trump, against his entire intelligence community and along with Fox News and others, had always claimed that Russia did not interfere to help Trump. He outright said he believed Putin over his own government. After the indictments it was impossible for anyone to deny. That was massive.

Depends. When did our government say that Russia helped Trump win? Is there an actual Intelligence report that the Russians set out to support Trump for the US Presidency? I've not seen one if there is. Please post it. 

The Russians did mettle, that is for sure. They did promote Trump, and also Clinton, in varying degrees at varying points. Did someone say that these indictments were due to things like the Facebook groups? It is a fact that a good number of those Facebook groups/pages/sites were Pro Clinton. So it is clear the Russians and specifically these indicted ones, did stuff to affect the election. But do we know for a fact they intended to help Trump, or did they simply intend chaos? A point can easily be made that Russia did not intend to aid Trump, or Clinton, but intended simply to cause trouble. In that case, Trump and FOX are correct technically. 

 

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, Lilly said:

Prediction: Within a few months all of this will go from screaming "Trump Russia" to screaming "Trump Affairs".

The media are already lining up various women who claim to have had affairs with Trump. It won't matter that there's a long history of US Presidents who have had affairs, used the services of prostitutes and even may have been involved in sexual assaults. The attacks on Trump will just go on and on as the majority of mainstream media outlets are now controlled by or strongly support the Democratic party. This will not stop. Even if Trump is impeached or steps down the attacks will simply transfer over to Mike Pence. Pence will be attacked for his religious beliefs, or simply for his association with Trump, or with other conservatives...something will be 'found' and the attacks will continue. 

This is what I think will happen. I don't care to debate my personal opinion here. Just wanted to put forth my opinion on what will be the next 'big thing' in the future. 

Ummmm.... Yeah, the affair with Stormy Daniels supposedly happened in, what, 2003... 15 years ago. John Edwards who was cheating on his wife as he ran for President came in number three behind Clinton and Obama in 2007.

And we're told that it is now a High Crime to pay off people to go away. But wasn't it just at the end of last year that it was discovered there was an entire Congressional budget section for doing so? Many of the Congressmen who used that fund were Democrats, and powerful ones at that.

Democrats don't really hold the High Ground in any discussion of sexual harrassment, or cheating on your wife.

This does not excuse Trump, but it should not be a surprise when people on both sides ignore the issue due to political expedience.