Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And I desperately want to share him with you. All of you. Because I know him.

I respect your life choices but my boat don't float that way. Sorry. You can share him with someone else.

[Guyver]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm 100% certain that I don't give a **** if god does or doesn't exist.

This is probably true.  

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I'm not crazy am I?

 

 

 I am not qualified to pass judgement but you certainly seem quite sane to me, Will.  

The insanity might be wanting to try and convince others of what you know to be true,  when they cannot (or at least do not, yet)  share the experiences which give you that knowledge, 

[Guyver]

4 hours ago, freetoroam said:

Ah but Will , it is not about a matter of caring, it is down to a difference of opinions and beliefs.

I'm 100% certain there is no god.

 

 

 

I thought it said 110% certain, so I responded.  I guess you may have changed it.  You can't be 110% of anything as 100% is the max.  Anyway....you should have said I'm 100% certain I believe that there is no god, because if there is a god, you'd be wrong.

And then, my question is.....where to you look for god?  If you're certain that no god exists, then you must have done a very exhaustive search.  Check other dimensions?  Other galaxies?  Check all parts of planet Earth?  Under the sea?  

Probably not.  I'm 100% certain you're not actually 100% certain that there is no God - a real one - and you're just riffing for kicks and giggles.  Which is fine, I could care less, just saying.  

[Mr Walker]

39 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

He's probably got excessively high dopamine levels.

So, given that other primates also experience rises in dopamine under the right conditions,  how come none evidence the slightest capacity for faith, belief or religious expression?

Clearly these qualities are qualities of MIND and intellect,  and are made possible only when a certain level of self aware consciousness is attained,  NOT of chemical release and effect. 

[XenoFish]

6 minutes ago, Guyver said:

This is probably true.  

[Guyver]

27 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You know, I've been thinking a lot about that, given how this thread has gone for about a day now.

I asked myself that. Why am I so certain?

First, I am, that's for sure. 

I respect that, but you could be certainly wrong.  I mean, there's so many people out there with crazy beliefs, like the snake-handling pentecostals, for instance, that I hope you'll see why people are skeptical.  These people are absolutely convinced their beliefs are true - or they wouldn't put their lives in jeopardy, and they are absolutely wrong.  

Quote

When I thought about it, I just don't see any reason to not be certain.

Yes, it's because of the spiritual (relationship) experiences I've had of course. But it's all just so very real to me. 

For me, to doubt my experiences with God, it would be akin to treason. Betrayal.

To me God isn't a God at all. He's a friend first. Then he's a father.

Which makes it impossible for me not to be loyal.

And I desperately want to share him with you. All of you. Because I know him.

I understand where you're coming from.....I was once this certain of my beliefs.  But, times have changed for me.  Anyway, I am certainly interested and open, but that the same time, I require more than just a personal testimony.  If you really want to convince me.....it's gonna take some serious logic.

For example.  You say God is a friend.  I love this idea; yet some people would claim that God is an imaginary friend.  You say God is a father; yet we know that we are the biological product of our parent's mating.  I hope you see where I'm headed here.  

 

[Guyver]

Let's take God as a friend.  Let's assume that God is my friend.  First of all, some of my friends have been sh**ty; but i'll give God the benefit of doubt.  He's a good friend.  A good friend helps in time of need.  Now image (x) worst case scenario.  Will God change the outcome of events that are personally devastating to me?

Let's say he does.  Then, I'm blessed and happy.

But what if the opposite occurs?  Now, I'm miserable and doubtful.  Yet, one may say, God allows all things for a reason and that reason is good.....if this be the case, then there is nothing to be gained in this life (besides suffering and our response to it) and the only hope is for a better one on the next go round.

Or, am I missing something here?

[papageorge1]

33 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Clearly a self aware entity DOES  include an indwelling super- physical spirit  Many of us  know and understand this as a matter of personal fact.

That really is not factually debatable although some people honestly never seem to connect with, or sense consciously, this element of our consciousness .

The argument revolves around what(  scientifically)  this  super-physical  spirit consists of.

Is it a jungian archetype  If so is, it capable of independent manifestation from your consciousness?  is it a construct created by the mind to make order from chaos, and to provide answers to unanswerable questions our minds ask?  Is it a connection to  a wider, perhaps universal, super consciousness.

The mind is an alive, self aware entity, capable of self direction and motivation  It has thus, via evolution, moved beyond being simply  just physical matter in motion, to something more.  

My belief is that sprit/consciousness is fundamental and that matter is a derivative of the One cosmic consciousness that animates all of us. This Consciousness permeates through the higher spiritual planes and incarnates the physical. It's all downward causation Mr. W.

[+Sherapy]

56 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I very much appreciate your kind spirit Sheri. It's refreshing. 

Finding the UB (I think it actually found me) has been a remarkable event in my life. It has enhanced so much. 

I'm just grateful for it and burn to share it with everyone.

 

 

Well, your passion for it definitely comes across.  

[+Sherapy]

47 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You know, I've been thinking a lot about that, given how this thread has gone for about a day now.

I asked myself that. Why am I so certain?

First, I am, that's for sure. 

When I thought about it, I just don't see any reason to not be certain.

Yes, it's because of the spiritual (relationship) experiences I've had of course. But it's all just so very real to me. 

For me, to doubt my experiences with God, it would be akin to treason. Betrayal.

To me God isn't a God at all. He's a friend first. Then he's a father.

Which makes it impossible for me not to be loyal.

And I desperately want to share him with you. All of you. Because I know him.

 

 

What were you like before? 

 

[back to earth]

49 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

The insanity might be wanting to try and convince others of what you know to be true,  when they cannot (or at least do not, yet)  share the experiences which give you that knowledge, 

 

That's what you do !       

Stepped in it again   

 

[XenoFish]

Addicted to god. Dopamine is motivation.

Edited September 12, 2017 by XenoFish

[back to earth]

46 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

So, given that other primates also experience rises in dopamine under the right conditions,  how come none evidence the slightest capacity for faith, belief or religious expression?

Clearly these qualities are qualities of MIND and intellect,  and are made possible only when a certain level of self aware consciousness is attained,  NOT of chemical release and effect. 

 

[+Sherapy]

6 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Great point!

 

 

 

[XenoFish]

Consider this. Religious beliefs and actions can create a positive feedback loop due to release of all those happy chemicals flooding the brain. Pavlov's dog much?

Edited September 12, 2017 by XenoFish

[Mr Walker]

50 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Let's take God as a friend.  Let's assume that God is my friend.  First of all, some of my friends have been sh**ty; but i'll give God the benefit of doubt.  He's a good friend.  A good friend helps in time of need.  Now image (x) worst case scenario.  Will God change the outcome of events that are personally devastating to me?

Let's say he does.  Then, I'm blessed and happy.

But what if the opposite occurs?  Now, I'm miserable and doubtful.  Yet, one may say, God allows all things for a reason and that reason is good.....if this be the case, then there is nothing to be gained in this life (besides suffering and our response to it) and the only hope is for a better one on the next go round.

Or, am I missing something here?

Even if god should alter events so you experience tragedy or loss (as Indeed he has done with us ) then he can also alter your mind set and perception so that,out of what is measurably  great loss and tragedy only good things arise.

Tragedy and loss are perceptions of objective physical events which occur. Exactly the same physical events can be viewed through a different lense and evoke very different responses in a person who sees through the eyes of god rather than just through the conditioned responses of mind which  they have learned since birth.  

 It is weird but you can lose everything you have worked for for 40 years, family possessions going back for generations and over 150 years, which can never be replaced,  and yet only gain blessings and empowerment through the experience if god is along side you through the process. Whatever physical things happen to you, or ones you love, god can empower, heal give courage,  and alter your perception, so that you are not in pain, or suffering.   

Edited September 12, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

20 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Sorry, but what does training and conditioning have to do with; conscious self awareness, creativity, spirituality and religion?   The picture is funny/amusing, but is not indicative that the dog is performing a self aware religious ritual . You aren't seriously suggesting that it is? 

[Mr Walker]

25 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

That's what you do !       

Stepped in it again   

 

I Am self aware of this dichotomy, but I am not sure Will yet is.

For me it remains important to tell a truth, even if others do not want to hear that truth.  

It is not insane for me, because the rationale behind it is logical.  ie.

I have a duty and obligation, even to those who are  antagonistic and skeptical, to tell them something which could enhance their life, and increase their potential as a human being.

Plus, surely you saw the smiley.  

I am not insane enough to expect everyone to believe me.

[Aquila King]

4 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Sheldrake?  No thanks, been there done that, let me know when we get a lot more replication of results. 

I'm sorry man but I just view the above quote as a cop-out, I just never get these psychological projections about scientists who are skeptics.  The 'argument' seems to be that some scientists will do absolutely anything to adhere to their rigid beliefs, but the problem with this line of reasoning is that it ignores the strong motivations to be rich and famous.  Good evidence for anything spiritual, psychic, or supernatural is Nobel Prize level stuff, probably the most important discovery ever made.  But for some reason stubborn scientists (apparently a ton of them) aren't interested in that.  Wonder if that's any reflection on the state of the evidence and scientific case at this point?

You just proved my point. You demand evidence, then when I give you evidence, and you reject it ad hoc. Of course Dr. Sheldrake's experiments aren't considered valid to you (which btw, I cited more than just Sheldrake which you most likely didn't study any of), because I doubt there will be a damn thing I could ever present to you that you'll ever accept. There's always an excuse.

And this isn't a cop-out, it's an unfortunate fact. It's the same reason why we have Donald Trump as President, because millions of people believe what they want to believe and cite only the sources that validate their positions, and the moment any facts or statistics pop up that they don't like or they disagree with, they shout "Fake News!" and try to shut it down.

And yes, some scientists will do absolutely anything to adhere to their rigid beliefs, and they have plenty a reason to do so. They still require funding from governments and corporations, funding that is typically geared towards certain outcomes. Many have built lifelong reputations supporting specific ideas, but most importantly, selling books etc that promote said ideas. Therefore anything that threatens those ideas, threatens not only their reputations but their sales as well. Plus, they're still human, with their own worldviews, and therefore their own biases. Why do we pretend and put these people on a pedestal and suddenly think "They'll always be objectively unbiased in everything" when they're just as prone to the same psychological biases as everyone else? They don't want to be wrong about their entire worldview anymore than anyone else does, and that's enough of a reason to defend it. How do I know? Because they're human, not benevolent demigods of perfect objectivity.

Now you'll come back with your own argument telling me why I'm wrong about everything I've just mentioned, and why? Because you have to. Lord knows, we can't ever be proven wrong on a public forum.

I'm just so sick of typing all this out over and over and doing countless hours of research and laying out all the facts, and then you people just dismiss it offhand so as to preserve your pride. I'm about done with all of it.

[+Sherapy]

30 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry, but what does training and conditioning have to do with; conscious self awareness, creativity, spirituality and religion?   The picture is funny/amusing, but is not indicative that the dog is performing a self aware religious ritual . You aren't seriously suggesting that it is? 

Dude, Pick up a copy of the new National Geographic " Inside Animal Minds" 

They actually feel emotions something you don't even do yet. 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Aquila King]

54 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

My belief is that sprit/consciousness is fundamental and that matter is a derivative of the One cosmic consciousness that animates all of us. This Consciousness permeates through the higher spiritual planes and incarnates the physical. It's all downward causation Mr. W.

Cue the atheists to spam denigrate everything you just said. As well as the religious to spew their self validating dogma.

Seriously papa, gimme a reason why we're even doing this at this point?

[+Sherapy]

34 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Even if god should alter events so you experience tragedy or loss (as Indeed he has done with us ) then he can also alter your mind set and perception so that,out of what is measurably  great loss and tragedy only good things arise.

Tragedy and loss are perceptions of objective physical events which occur.

 It is weird but you can lose everything you have worked for for 40 years, family possessions going back for generations and over 150 years, which can never be replaced,  and yet only gain blessings and empowerment through the experience if god is along side you through the process. Whatever physical things happen to you or ones you love, god can empower, heal give courage,  and alter your perception so that you are not in pain, or suffering.   

You can accomplish the same thing without God, it's called the journey of life. It is all there the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful.

I use the same expression to describe my life, I am blessed with 3 amazing children, a sense of purpose,  I love and am loved and on and on...

No God, just life.

You are not special. I am not special, oh well.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

7 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I'm just so sick of typing all this out over and over and doing countless hours of research and laying out all the facts, and then you people just dismiss it offhand so as to preserve your pride. I'm about done with all of it.

Gee I guess you now know what it feels like to be me.

[SHaYap]

4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Seriously papa, gimme a reason why we're even doing this at this point?

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Jesus Christ is the Artisan, the Servant, the Judge, the Priest, the Merchant, and the Victor—you are not. Your religion is not. Your intellect is not. Therefore, repent of any false ideologies that add works to Christ’s finished work. Repent of any arrogant notions, through manmade philosophies of ministry, which would presume to finish the work that Christ has already finished.

Jesus said, “It is finished!” And He meant it.

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