Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

[+Sherapy]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Another member suggested that I create a thread dedicated to what I've learned. So I did. It was good for the first few pages. My ideas were hashed out, refined. Then Walker wrecked it like he always does.

 

I disagree, I think the golden UM medal goes to you, for the poster with the most growth. 

I can see you have come through wiser and better. Your an inspiration to me X! 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sherapy said:

I disagree, I think the golden UM medal goes to you, for the poster with the most growth. 

I can see you have come through wiser and better. Your an inspiration to me X! 

I'm a perpetual work in progress. 

[+Sherapy]

Just now, XenoFish said:

I'm a perpetual work in progress. 

Same on my end. 

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, XenoFish said:

You can present your ideas, give suggestions, and express your point of view. However it's up to them to change their mind.

 

I would jump in and piggy back your wise post with--wisdom has a way of rising to the top if it is there, and from there we take those tidbits and try them in our own lives, all we can do is focus on our own journey-- share it as we go and  if anything helps others they will let us know or not, in fact, I let ohters express their thoughts to me on things. And, when I say wisdom I mean the actual life experiences one works through, not gets through but, faces the "what is" as opposed to the "what if." 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, Will Due said:

This is what has happened to me.

Disappointment. And more disappointment. Then royal disappointment. Pain. Suffering. The bottom fell out. And again, always when I least expect it. Always when I least want to deal with it. This still occurs regularly and I've now embraced it as being an integral part of "The Way."

I just keep being faithful no matter what. Because of faith, catastrophes became blessings. The more tragedy, the more I see why and what it's for, "trouble."

For me, faith did not become real because good fortune found me. No. Instead faith is bolstered because when trouble finds me, I have learned from the time before, that I needed to be down face first. So it's how I've learned to walk and why I'm able to run.

Pain, suffering and struggle has been good for my soul. I understand it.

***

Everything though, my ability, has been mightily augmented by what I've read in that book. It has been an enormous boost and I doubt I would be where I'm at without it.

But I do want to think that's not the case.

 

 

So to be clear, faith "in the words" of UB has helped you turn negative runinations into positive reappraisals, it has helped you deal with problems head on instead of denying they are there, and you have accepted that pain and suffering is part of the life experience and there are tools you can use to cope, for example: faith in yourself that you are competent and capable this helps you cope emotionally with the constant disappointment. 

Have I heard you clearly, and if not where does my impression need refinement? 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Guyver]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I don't care about some random event happening. That doesn't scream 'Divine Intervention' to me. All of that is just a part of the law of large numbers. 

Maybe the point is that the law of large numbers doesn't really exist?  In the case of Vesna Vulovic, it's not really large numbers....it defies the laws of physics.  The large numbers give her zero chance of surviving that fall.  Based on what we know about force, mass, velocity, etc. that even is mathematically impossible.  But, it's real; it's truth.

More recently, rogue waves.  The law of large numbers says that they can't exist.....or they could maybe exist once every 100,000 years or so.  But now, there is evidence that not only do they exist; they occur much more frequently than ever imagined.  So, just a few years ago science would not accept that rogue waves exist....so the stories/accounts of them going back for hundreds of years were all false.  Now, they are known to exist and it's not even in doubt because of new evidence.

So, the law of large numbers and science were just factually wrong.  Ie.....false.  

[Will Due]

40 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

So to be clear, faith "in the words" of UB has helped you turn negative runinations into positive reappraisals, it has helped you deal with problems head on instead of denying they are there, and you have accepted that pain and suffering is part of the life experience and there are tools you can use to cope, for example: faith in yourself that you are competent and capable this helps you cope emotionally with the constant disappointment. 

Have I heard you clearly, and if not where does my impression need refinement? 

I'll clarify.

Faith, is in who I am and who God is. 

God is my Father, I am his son. 

It is in this faith, that I have life.

I don't have faith "in the words" of the UB. I read in the book about what this faith is and does when faith in God is total. I will plainly say, if this faith isn't total, reading a book is useless. It's a tool that can't be used and I've been in that position.

Reading the book bolsters what I've already experienced. First I experience the consciousness that is God's, then I read about it in a book. And not just one book. 

The Urantia Book is the best of them all because, well, it just is.

Growing up spiritually entails triumphing over disappointment. Disappointments are food for growth and when I triumph over them my soul grows. Then when I read the book again, I have more insight which makes it easier to triumph the next time, which because of it, when I read the book again, I'm able to gain more insight again.

This process just keeps growing. Because of faith.

I don't cope with life. Life gives me joy, meaning, value and purpose. And this is true because of faith in God, the Father of all.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Will Due

[+Liquid Gardens]

38 minutes ago, Guyver said:

In the case of Vesna Vulovic, it's not really large numbers....it defies the laws of physics.  The large numbers give her zero chance of surviving that fall.  Based on what we know about force, mass, velocity, etc. that even is mathematically impossible.  

This seems to ignore a lot about her case.  She was trapped in a piece of the fuselage during descent, which hit trees and landed in snow.  She barely survived it; she had skull fracture, broke both legs and three vertebrae, was in a coma and temporarily paralyzed.  I'm not sure what physics are being defied here.

[+Sherapy]

37 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I'll clarify.

Faith, is in who I am and who God is. 

God is my Father, I am his son. 

It is in this faith, that I have life.

I don't have faith "in the words" of the UB. I read in the book about what this faith is and does when faith in God is total. I will plainly say, if this faith isn't total, reading a book is useless. It's a tool that can't be used and I've been in that position.

Reading the book bolsters what I've already experienced. First I experience the consciousness that is God's, then I read about it in a book. And not just one book. 

The Urantia Book is the best of them all because, well, it just is.

Growing up spiritually entails triumphing over disappointment. Disappointments are food for growth and when I triumph over them my soul grows. Then when I read the book again, I have more insight which makes it easier to triumph the next time, which because of it, when I read the book again, I'm able to gain more insight again.

This process just keeps growing. Because of faith.

I don't cope with life. Life gives me joy, meaning, value and purpose. And this is true because of faith in God, the Father of all.

 

 

Life doesn't always bring joy, and it seems you use the word disappointment as a theme for your life. 

How do you gain insight which is emotional and mental clarity? 

I am not clear on how Faith is working in your life, can you clarify.

How are you defining faith? It reads as if it is by osmosis all you have to do is believe and you will reap benefits. 

Please clarify.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[papageorge1]

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The facts and statistics you are often asked to present to support your case. Which you never do. I figure that phrase will be the only intelligent response to anything you post. Because you never back anything you say up. 

I think then evidence-denial and maybe even dishonesty may be what I will have to use as MY pat answer, if you want to play that immature game.

[Will Due]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

How are you defining faith? 

 

 

faith is an effective armor against sin and iniquity.

 

faith is a mighty force for the promotion of personal happiness, individual self-control, social harmony, moral progress, and spiritual attainment.

 

faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

 

faith is concerned only with the grasp of ideal values 

 

faith is the method of religion

 

 

faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

 

Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience.

 

 

faith is expanding and releasing.

 

 

Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

 

Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

 

Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. 

 

faith is the insight technique of religion

 

 

[jmccr8]

I don't personally have inner conflict about who or what God is, for me God doesn't have a form or personality and unless God sounds like my voice when I'm talking to myself in my head then God doesn't speak to me either. We have the gift of giving meaning,understanding or environment and the means by which to manipulate/change and adapt ourselves as well as our environment. I see us and all that is as god, if others need a humanistic identity to assign or designate to god I can understand it because they need that something other or exterior from themselves because they want to dostance themselves for having to be responsible for themselves. It just bothers me that they create god images that condon persecuting for doing the same thing so I am sceptical of not their god but of them for believing that their god would grant them that bias/bigotry.

jmccr8 

Why does auto correct think it knows what I mean damn it

Edited September 12, 2017 by jmccr8
Auto corrupt/ correct

[ellapenella]

6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

faith is an effective armor against sin and iniquity.

 

faith is a mighty force for the promotion of personal happiness, individual self-control, social harmony, moral progress, and spiritual attainment.

 

faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

 

faith is concerned only with the grasp of ideal values 

 

faith is the method of religion

 

 

faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

 

Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience.

 

 

faith is expanding and releasing.

 

 

Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

 

Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

 

Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. 

 

faith is the insight technique of religion

 

 

Faith can also be described as an expression of our love in what we know to be truth.

eta

not just in a religious sense of the word faith  but in a living sense of why it's referred to as faith in God.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Ellapennella

[ellapenella]

In regards to the thread title when I hear of spirituality it reminds me of the frauds that were table movers, they were "spiritualist". 

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Ellapennella said:

In regards to the thread title when I hear of spirituality it reminds me of the frauds that were table movers, they were "spiritualist". 

Well I've seen sceptics move tables so that they could throttle spiritualist.

jmccr8 

[+Sherapy]

21 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

faith is an effective armor against sin and iniquity.

 

faith is a mighty force for the promotion of personal happiness, individual self-control, social harmony, moral progress, and spiritual attainment.

 

faith is the only requirement for eternal salvation.

 

faith is concerned only with the grasp of ideal values 

 

faith is the method of religion

 

 

faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

 

Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience.

 

 

faith is expanding and releasing.

 

 

Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

 

Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

 

Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. 

 

faith is the insight technique of religion

 

 

Are these your words or the UB's? 

What I am interested in is your real time with faith. 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Are these your words or the UB's? 

What I am interested in is your real time with faith. 

 

They're the words of the Urantia Book. 

I've been expressing my faith, it's indomitable, unwavering, powerful in its insight, wondrous in its results, validating in its experience, and easy to understand.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

21 minutes ago, Will Due said:

They're the words of the Urantia Book. 

I've been expressing my faith, it's indomitable, unwavering, powerful in its insight, wondrous in its results, validating in its experience, and easy to understand.

 

 

I say this with the greatest of respect, but the powerful insight aspect is not coming through, it could be me, this is why I am seeking clarity, I am actually trying to glean the wisdom that I am sure you have accrued in your life from your posts. 

 

I do see the that you are committed to your beleifs though.

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

24 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I say this with the greatest of respect, but the powerful insight aspect is not coming through, it could be me, this is why I am seeking clarity, I am actually trying to glean the wisdom that I am sure you have accrued in your life from your posts. 

 

I do see the that you are committed to your beleifs though.

Sheri, in order to gain the insight of faith, you need to have faith yourself.

Can I ask you a question? Do you want to have this faith?

 

[+Sherapy]

29 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Sheri, in order to gain the insight of faith, you need to have faith yourself.

Can I ask you a question? Do you want to have this faith?

 

No, I don't believe that there is exclusivity in the human experience. 

But I do think experiences are interchangeable what may be meditation on one path, is prayer on another. 

I do think that faith and trust can be interchangeable, I would say that blind faith or blind trust is not it though. 

 

I think that faith, trust has to be warranted to some degree beyond the subjective experience. 

This is why I am asking for life experience, I will look at this to garner application and viability.

 

The way you are defining faith is the equivalence of resilience. In other words, that no matter what comes our way storms, disappointments, heartache, we will get through it we have what it takes, this can be nurtured in anyone.

In experiencial terms, how has faith bettered you?

No, I do not ascribe to the idea that one can only know/understand  faith If they believe a certain way. For me, this is more about substitution a form of avoidance, for me,  this type of application tends to eliminate opportunities for contextual learning which comes from finding and building support systems that are different than our own. 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

No, I don't believe that there is exclusivity in the human experience. 

But I do think experiences are interchangeable what may be meditation on one path, is prayer on another. 

I do think that faith and trust can be interchangeable, I would say that blind faith or blind trust is not it though. 

 

I think that faith, trust has to be warranted to some degree beyond the subjective experience. 

This is why I am asking for life experience, I look at this to garner application and viability.

In experiencial terms, how as faith bettered you and how?

No, I do not ascribe to the idea that one can only know/understand  faith If they believe a certain way. For me, this is more about substitution a form of avoidance, for me,  this type of application tends to eliminate opportunities for contextual learning which comes from finding and building support systems that are different than our own. 

 

I wouldn't know or understand faith without experiencing it. Nobody can.

It's not an intellectual thing. It's an experience. 

 

 

[freetoroam]

14 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Another member suggested that I create a thread dedicated to what I've learned. So I did. It was good for the first few pages. My ideas were hashed out, refined. Then Walker wrecked it like he always does.

 

yep, got ya. i can not even be bothered to reply to his dribble......which  stains the upholstery of the threads.. 

[+Sherapy]

13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I wouldn't know or understand faith without experiencing it. Nobody can.

It's not an intellectual thing. It's an experience. 

 

 

It is obvious from my post that I have the experience of faith, what I am asking for is yours, at this point you seem to be intellectualizing it, you are not even using your own experience to share your understanding of faith, you are quoting the UB.

 

Number one: no quote speaks solely for you, (this is blind faith) you speak for you by adding your own thoughts, emotions, experience  to it ( warranted faith ).

 

You could have stage fright or have not had an oppourtuinity to explore this in such depth, I remember my early days on UM, I had not evaluated myself much at all.  

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of semantics here.

I can't experience your experiences and visa versa. We can share them though.

I have been doing that, describing them.

You said you have faith, so I'm happy for you.

Not sure what else to say.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

39 minutes ago, Will Due said:

There seems to be a misunderstanding of semantics here.

I can't experience your experiences and visa versa. We can share them though.

I have been doing that, describing them.

You said you have faith, so I'm happy for you.

Not sure what else to say.

 

 

Do you have kids? Have you ever had a broken heart, lost a loved one, faced the angst of change, saw a sunset?

No, not semantics Will, just two people connecting their humanness. 

Experience of Faith: being asked to help a friend die who had a terminal illness and told there was nothing left for her in the way of medical treatment, and neither of us knew what the f we were doing! Yet, we moved forward with Hospice anyway. Incidently, she believed in god and I didn't, never mattered. Our commonality was the trust that grew from a mustard seed of faith in our resources, capabilities, humility, connection, ability to listen, ability to communicate, my resilience, her courage, my ability to comfort, in hers to accept it, our mutual support for each other...etc. etc. 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Sherapy