Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #951 Share Posted September 15, 2017 43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: 5 hours ago, Aquila King said: You simply don't believe it to be true, and that's more than enough reason to reject it right there. Yes, I understand why people find comfort in believing in an afterlife, that's only natural. But to need to believe it in order to cope... That once again goes back to willfully lying to yourself which makes no sense at all. I probably derive a greater deal of comfort in death due to my belief in the afterlife, yes, but that comfort comes from the fact that I genuinely believe it to be true. Not just cause I want it to be. I know some will disagree with me here and insist that I am just wanting it to be true and that that's why I believe it. But they don't know me, and anyone who does know me knows that that's just not who I am. I can't stand dishonesty, period. It's one of those things I have a special reason to detest. I can't lie to myself and say it's true just so it gives me comfort. Because in all honesty, it wouldn't give me any comfort if I knew it to be a lie. They whole concept of forcing oneself to believe something is just beyond me. I seriously doubt sometimes that it's even possible... I know it is for me anyway... If one does not, and cannot, know if an after life exists or not, then how can believing in one be a knowing lie? Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted? The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #952 Share Posted September 15, 2017 16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: I assumed it was a typo. And you are correct i have no familiarity with menes, nor any desire to become familiar. In another context i might have assumed it was a sarcastic reference to nasa When you meld with another consciousness, of course you cant speak the language of their mind, unless they speak one of your languages, or you speak one of theirs I couldn't link minds with a russian and understand their thoughts, let alone an alien being. You can see through their eyes and feel through their senses, which allows for some contextual understanding. Current technology is developing the ability to read minds and transfer thoughts but it requires computer encoding to interpret . This is even more so when trying to communicate with a mind which thinks in another language. Roll on the universal translator I can only think i english so I can only understand linguistic based thoughts in english. If i could see visual images I might be able to communicate on a visual basis. What happened to your pre-existing language of mind? If it was factual all concepts would be understood no matter what verbal language evolved.So your language of mind was English lucky for you you were born in and English speaking country, things would be pretty difficult for you otherwise. jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #953 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Forgive me if I'm a bit salty tonight Walker, I just had a huge shouting match with my mother today and I'm a bit tense. Thankfully we've made up and we're moving on. Just have a lot on my plate, so, don't take it personal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #954 Share Posted September 15, 2017 14 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: I shave religiously because it is a ritual. http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln101/definitions.pdf http://www.gla.ac.uk/0t4/humanities/files/mindmapping/Religion1_files/docs/Pragmatics.pdf http://www2.tf.jcu.cz/~klapetek/religion.pdf http://www.anpere.net/2007/2.pdf jmccr8 First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual behaviour Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting. Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #955 Share Posted September 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted? The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end. Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway. jmccr8 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #956 Share Posted September 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual behaviour Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting. Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour I believe that I have to shave in order to not have hair on my face, how is that not a belief? jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #957 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Just now, jmccr8 said: Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway. jmccr8 I think I finally see what they all meant... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #958 Share Posted September 15, 2017 1 minute ago, jmccr8 said: I believe that I have to shave in order to not have hair on my face, how is that not a belief? jmccr8 I believe I have to shave in order to not have hair everywhere else... ...God I hate my effin werewolf bod. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #959 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Maybe I should just call it a night before I say something I really regret... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #960 Share Posted September 15, 2017 14 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Wobble wobble wobble, we have gone down this path before and you still insist that you are only telling us this because you need to affirm reality to yourself, okay you succeeded in proving it to yourself why expect validation form us you know that we expect to see documentation other than that it's fiction and not worth discussing maybe put in the story telling threads. The world I walk in every day is real and yes I do know when I'm dreaming or fantasizing and really don't have an overwhelming need for reality checkers unless I am tanked. jmccr8 I tell the story because it is true. It is a part of the common physical reality of human existence and thus it is as real (and as important) for you as it is for me, even though you have not personally encountered this reality as yet I explain how i established its truth to legitimise me telling it and explain its reality Otherwise it would just be a tall tale and i would not be here telling and retelling t as truth It is the difference between telling a true story of encountering an alien being and just making one up and telling it. Your disbelief does not affect the reality of my experiences it just influences how you respond to the narrative. Good Then when or if you encounter anything, from a ghost to an angel, a god to an alien, you will have no difficulty establishing for yourself that it has its own physical reality and does not just exist inside your head. Lots of luck trying to convince anyone else of the reality of your encounter, however. You can know something with absolute certainty and yet NEVER be able to prove it to another person. As i said my use of reality checkers is primarily part of my technique for establishing controlled lucid dreaming and conscious dream construction. It is also helpful in establishing the physical existence of anything in the waking world, however, even if only by demonstrating that you ARE fully awake and conscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted September 15, 2017 #961 Share Posted September 15, 2017 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #962 Share Posted September 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Maybe I should just call it a night before I say something I really regret... Buck up little camper we are having Smores after singing kumbya jmccr8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #963 Share Posted September 15, 2017 24 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted? The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end. Sorry. I dont get his We construct beliefs and have good psychological reasons to construct a belief. Because beliefs cannot be proven true or false, any belief is legitimate, but the best beliefs serve constructive, functional purposes if you know something is a lie then you can't construct a belief that it is not, because knowledge precludes belief (except maybe in cases of severe psychological crisis) Na I dont get it. I cant do that myself and ive never met a person who did. You can construct some "opposing" beliefs and you can have beliefs which are hard to justify given what you know But you either believe x or you believe y That's the nature of belief construction. Some people LIE to others about their real beliefs for a variety of reasons including social acceptance or avoiding conflict but that is a different issue. Becaue no one knows if an after life exists, a person can have some doubts about it; half believing and half disbelieving, for different reasons. That is not lying to self however, it is genuine uncertainty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #964 Share Posted September 15, 2017 27 minutes ago, Aquila King said: Forgive me if I'm a bit salty tonight Walker, I just had a huge shouting match with my mother today and I'm a bit tense. Thankfully we've made up and we're moving on. Just have a lot on my plate, so, don't take it personal. No i actually found it a reasonable question. It is beyond my experience and doesn't fit my understanding about the nature and psychological purpose of belief construction by the human mind, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #965 Share Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: I tell the story because it is true. It is a part of the common physical reality of human existence and thus it is as real (and as important) for you as it is for me, even though you have not personally encountered this reality as yet I explain how i established its truth to legitimise me telling it and explain its reality Otherwise it would just be a tall tale and i would not be here telling and retelling t as truth It is the difference between telling a true story of encountering an alien being and just making one up and telling it. Your disbelief does not affect the reality of my experiences it just influences how you respond to the narrative. Good Then when or if you encounter anything, from a ghost to an angel, a god to an alien, you will have no difficulty establishing for yourself that it has its own physical reality and does not just exist inside your head. Lots of luck trying to convince anyone else of the reality of your encounter, however. You can know something with absolute certainty and yet NEVER be able to prove it to another person. As i said my use of reality checkers is primarily part of my technique for establishing controlled lucid dreaming and conscious dream construction. It is also helpful in establishing the physical existence of anything in the waking world, however, even if only by demonstrating that you ARE fully awake and conscious. Wèll fortunately for me I don't need to convince anyone that I have dreams lucid or otherwise that I believe are real, Hense the lack of using reality checkers. As I said earlier everything in my day to day life is boringly real but excitingly stimulating in the physical sense. jmccr8 Edited September 15, 2017 by jmccr8 Auto corrupt/ correct 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #966 Share Posted September 15, 2017 32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: What happened to your pre-existing language of mind? If it was factual all concepts would be understood no matter what verbal language evolved.So your language of mind was English lucky for you you were born in and English speaking country, things would be pretty difficult for you otherwise. jmccr8 Language of mind is a technical term for the way human beings think. It involves verbal and non verbal thought We think, as adults, basically in the same way, and language, we use to speak to others. As infants we develop all our language of the mind while we are learning to speak, read and write. Hence every human's language of mind is the same as the language or languages they can converse in. My language of mind could not have been other than english, although if i was brain damaged i might never have learned ANY language of mind a t all. Concepts, abstract or theoretical language, symbolic language, similes, metaphors and memes etc are quite complex sophisticated forms of language, but they only exist in verbal language (unless you can also think in actual images which i can not ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #967 Share Posted September 15, 2017 6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Sorry. I dont get his We construct beliefs and have good psychological reasons to construct a belief. Because beliefs cannot be proven true or false, any belief is legitimate, but the best beliefs serve constructive, functional purposes if you know something is a lie then you can't construct a belief that it is not, because knowledge precludes belief (except maybe in cases of severe psychological crisis) Na I dont get it. I cant do that myself and ive never met a person who did. You can construct some "opposing" beliefs and you can have beliefs which are hard to justify given what you know But you either believe x or you believe y That's the nature of belief construction. Some people LIE to others about their real beliefs for a variety of reasons including social acceptance or avoiding conflict but that is a different issue. Becaue no one knows if an after life exists, a person can have some doubts about it; half believing and half disbelieving, for different reasons. That is not lying to self however, it is genuine uncertainty This is something else Walker, you can't see that people lie to themselves? Hmm, well I guess that peopl who construct false egos for themselves is just lying to everybody else, but to make it seem real one must first convince themselves which of course wouldn't be lying to oneself would it. jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #968 Share Posted September 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: Language of mind is a technical term for the way human beings think. It involves verbal and non verbal thought We think, as adults, basically in the same way, and language, we use to speak to others. As infants we develop all our language of the mind while we are learning to speak, read and write. Hence every human's language of mind is the same as the language or languages they can converse in. My language of mind could not have been other than english, although if i was brain damaged i might never have learned ANY language of mind a t all. Concepts, abstract or theoretical language, symbolic language, similes, metaphors and memes etc are quite complex sophisticated forms of language, but they only exist in verbal language (unless you can also think in actual images which i can not ). This is quite the deviation from when you first brought up this concept, evolution in progress I guess. jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #969 Share Posted September 15, 2017 30 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway. jmccr8 I dont use speed reading to read a million words Speed reading reads a whole page in a second. I can do this if necessary but in reading for pleasure i just read quickly. That includes about 2 novels a day (60000-100000 plus words each, ) plus a lot of newspapers magazines and online material. Since i have retired, i dont have to read professionally eg marking essays etc But i now read more than when teaching simply because i can devote more hours in the day to reading Speed reading is different. Using speed reading i read and fully understood the english patient in 40 minutes (one lunch break) . (82 370 words) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #970 Share Posted September 15, 2017 39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual behaviour Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting. Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour The point is that it is debatable which is why I gave those links jmccr8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #971 Share Posted September 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Mr Walker said: I dont use speed reading to read a million words Speed reading reads a whole page in a second. I can do this if necessary but in reading for pleasure i just read quickly. That includes about 2 novels a day (60000-100000 plus words each, ) plus a lot of newspapers magazines and online material. Since i have retired, i dont have to read professionally eg marking essays etc But i now read more than when teaching simply because i can devote more hours in the day to reading Speed reading is different. Using speed reading i read and fully understood the english patient in 40 minutes (one lunch break) . (82 370 words) Well That's just peachy but still doesn't address the comprehension issue which was the point of the post, I guess you just sped read that part. jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #972 Share Posted September 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: This is something else Walker, you can't see that people lie to themselves? Hmm, well I guess that peopl who construct false egos for themselves is just lying to everybody else, but to make it seem real one must first convince themselves which of course wouldn't be lying to oneself would it. jmccr8 No i dont see people lying to themselves But i was brought up never to lie to anyone. i see some people confused and conflicted but i don't see how a person can sustain two beliefs which they have constructed if one is in total conflict to the other OR in conflict to facts the y know to be true or false As i said it would be indicative of a severe psychological problem. If you speak of me I don't have a false ego. I have one i have constructed which is realistic and truthful based on my understanding of myself and my place in the world. I am honest about both my capabilities and my limitations However, i believe that a strong ego is a healthy ego, as long a s it is justified, and that too many people do not have enough faith, confidence and pride, in themselves and their achievements, often because their parents did not give it to them as children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted September 15, 2017 #973 Share Posted September 15, 2017 5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said: The point is that it is debatable which is why I gave those links jmccr8 None of them denied the definition i gave And this is my point. Often my points are debatable but rarely can they be proven wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #974 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Just now, Mr Walker said: No i dont see people lying to themselves But i was brought up never to lie to anyone. i see some people confused and conflicted but i don't see how a person can sustain two beliefs which they have constructed if one is in total conflict to the other OR in conflict to facts the y know to be true or false As i said it would be indicative of a severe psychological problem. If you speak of me I don't have a false ego. I have one i have constructed which is realistic and truthful based on my understanding of myself and my place in the world. I am honest about both my capabilities and my limitations However, i believe that a strong ego is a healthy ego, as long a s it is justified, and that too many people do not have enough faith, confidence and pride, in themselves and their achievements, often because their parents did not give it to them as children. So this is about you? How did that happen? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccr8 Posted September 15, 2017 #975 Share Posted September 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Mr Walker said: None of them denied the definition i gave And this is my point. Often my points are debatable but rarely can they be proven wrong. If it's debatable it can't be proven right either. jmccr8 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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