Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

[doctor wu]

20 hours ago, Aquila King said:

I prefer not to believe you.

Heh...take it up with Francis Bacon.........his quote.

 

 

btw...I noticed someone used a Carlin comment a few pages back   ...well that quote came from RAWilson I think and one of his others goes like this...

"If you think you know what's going on...then you are probably full of s***."

Edited September 15, 2017 by doctor wu

[Aquila King]

9 minutes ago, doctor wu said:

btw...I noticed someone used a Carlin comment a few pages back   ...well that quote came from RAWilson I think and one of his others goes like this...

"If you think you know what's going on...then you are probably full of s***."

Either way, Carlin's still the best.

[doctor wu]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Either way, Carlin's still the best.

The best what...?

 

[Aquila King]

1 minute ago, doctor wu said:

The best what...?

 

The best everything of course.

[Guyver]

15 hours ago, Aquila King said:

The only problem with that movie was that it was made.

Where is the "not-like" button?

[Aquila King]

12 minutes ago, Guyver said:

Where is the "not-like" button?

[rodentraiser]

20 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I will try to answer this by tying together personal connection to god and religious connections to god.

I have one, my wife has the other..

 The point in both is how your knowledge or belief leads you to think and to behave.   Whether your god is personal or mainstream, if it leads you to harm yourself, others, or your world, or limits the potential of any of these things,  then it is not the right god for you. If it gives you strength power joy and peace,   causes you to work towards helping others and the environment, then it Is the right god for for you.

I've answered how i see a religion.

If i act, based on a set of beliefs, with uniformity and coherence, then i am living a religious life, and am religious, even if my religion only consists of me.  

But are your beliefs set in stone as in so many religions, or are they fluid and subject to change when necessary? Beliefs are fine as long as you don't hurt anyone because of them or if you can change them if and when you learn something new about your religion.

What you call religion is what I call being spiritual, and I also believe in changing my beliefs when needed, although I keep the core of me. But if tomorrow I found out flies were sentient beings, I'd quit swatting them. I adhere to James Burke's saying: "You are what you know and when what you know changes, so do you."

 

Edited to add: I didn't mean I change my core beliefs with every new idea and wave of the flag. But if something can be proven to me which makes my beliefs incompatible with the new knowledge, then I will adjust them.

Edited September 15, 2017 by rodentraiser

[rodentraiser]

16 hours ago, back to earth said:

 A close friend reported this conversation  to me with her  5 year old daughter;

: " I like it here, I don't like the other house. "

"What other house ? "

"The one I used to live in . "

" We have only ever lived in the one house . "

"No, not with you, with other mummy ."

" What other Mummy ? "

{Impatient ) : The  other mummy, the one that was sick, in the big old dark house, it was cold . .... I was always cold ."

" What ? What are you talking about ? "

" My other mummy - before .... its all right, I Like you better , you are a good mommy . "

 

 

That's exactly how the majority of those posts went. The kids talked about their other parents, their other brothers and sisters, their other houses - like I said, it was creepy.

[rodentraiser]

17 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

At lease you get help with the shopping

 

For reference, this is what would invade my yard every day - this is Mama and her 4 kits:

 

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-chemistry/chapter/the-laws-of-thermodynamics/

The sludge that you will be after the bacteria in your body finish digesting you should go back into the earth as fertilizer, however most people end up in "tupperware" 6 foot under. I'm getting cremated, mixed with potting soil and used to grow a tree. My version of recycling. 

I want to be cremated and have my ashes taken to the top of a hill where they can be released to fly in the wind and land in someone's swimming pool. I love swimming pools.

 

9 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Ooooh, I love this!!   (Thank you and AK, two recent additions here to stimulate my synapses!   ) 

I think, in a sense, for my point of view here, you touched upon it a bit. I have a feeling, there is a plane of existence that is beyond an explanation, that can't put it in words right now. Well, from what I sense I guess.  

When it came to something, that led me to this path today, I feel I was at a crossroads, and then there was various signs, (from what certain individuals have said on the radio and such) that click inside of me, and had me seeing things that lead me to consider and then feel spiritually, that I think was no coincidence for me. I think, that is how it's done, by personal messages, that is how it can be received so it can be understood. But, that is how I come to feel this way, personally and subjectively. 

And your last question, I love that. I have often asked that myself that question. If we are able to prove it, then it becomes something like the law, or a kingdom with a provable sovereign, and then becomes material, not spiritual. I think you're on the right track. I think it stops becoming a religion, if it's provable and material.  

 

You're welcome. This is so refreshing to hear, especially after the last forum where I was told I was stupid and to quit posting - on a thread I started yet!. LOL Of course I didn't.

 

Oh, for everyone here, I'm not sure how strict the mods are, but I have no objection to anyone going off topic because so often, we have to go off topic when we explore tangents to the original post. And I surely don't care if anyone disagrees with me. I might go crazy trying to prove my point, but I also believe, as someone once said, that I don't learn things from people who agree with me.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by rodentraiser
punctuation *sigh*

[Mr Walker]

26 minutes ago, rodentraiser said:

But are your beliefs set in stone as in so many religions, or are they fluid and subject to change when necessary? Beliefs are fine as long as you don't hurt anyone because of them or if you can change them if and when you learn something new about your religion.

What you call religion is what I call being spiritual, and I also believe in changing my beliefs when needed, although I keep the core of me. But if tomorrow I found out flies were sentient beings, I'd quit swatting them. I adhere to James Burke's saying: "You are what you know and when what you know changes, so do you."

 

Edited to add: I didn't mean I change my core beliefs with every new idea and wave of the flag. But if something can be proven to me which makes my beliefs incompatible with the new knowledge, then I will adjust them.

Funny i was just considering this question myself.

Let's set aside beliefs, and answer it about my values and thus my ethics  I was taught to develop ethics based upon values along a value line.

The way i was taught to prioritise values, and hence my ethics, was in two ways First what was my intent  and second what would be the outcome  if i put my ethical values into action.

So take abortion In principle i believe it is wrong to take the life of an unborn human being who will become a unique living human being in time. It ends one full human potential before it can even begin. However  making abortion totally illegal does great harm and  forces it underground. Hence a woman's rights to an abortion must be considered and weighed. And if there are good logical reasons which outweigh a childs life then abortion should be allowed (and paid for by the state like all other medical bills) 

While my values and ethics evolved a little in childhood they haven't changed much since.  I was raised an ethical secular humanist and find the ethics of christianity sit quite comfortably  with those values so long as i adopt and adapt them to modern social realities.

Because my values are outcome based i don't change them unless i learn that doing something today produces a different outcome from doing it in the past  Thus i do not always open a door for a woman, stand when one comes to the table, or walk on the street side of the kerb   However i still do those things with women who value them.  Intrinsically to me they are still the right thing to do UNLESS the woman perceives them as wrong

I don't have a religion I have a personal relationship with a god And i have an internalised set of ethics and moralities which i consistently live by These predate my first meeting with god and so are not basically religious, but humanist

 HOWEVER if i acted on belief based values, and a set of internal laws i had constructed on a religious basis, then i would be a religious person, and have my own personalised religion

I agree with you very much that KNOWLEDGE  changes (or should change) our values and thus ethics and moralities. With any logical person, new knowledge will change behaviors, to take advantage of the new knowledge.   

[back to earth]

3 hours ago, rodentraiser said:

 

For reference, this is what would invade my yard every day - this is Mama and her 4 kits:

 

...

 

 

Lucky you. I have different visitors in my yard .... it very dry at the moment so I put out water for them which attracts them more .

 

Paddymelon

 

Ringtail possum

 

 

Feather tail glider

 

 

 

Feather

[+Hammerclaw]

I never know who'll come calling.

[Wes4747]

16 hours ago, LightAngel said:

 

Well, I am.

 

In another post i think you shared that you were spiritual but didnt quite know what that meant?

I am starting to think its an emotional/feely kind of thing vs a worshipping/ god-knowing thing .

I kind of feel my way through the crazy vs logically thinking everything out... And i think (or feel) that mindset keeps me thinking im spiritual.... Does that make sense??

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't have a religion I have a personal relationship with a god And i have an internalised set of ethics and moralities which i consistently live by These predate my first meeting with god and so are not basically religious, but humanist

AAH, cough cough, what happened to your religion of one, not enough hitting the collection plate?

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

23 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No  You now are understanding something completely different. It has always been like this in my mind. Perhaps i didn't make it clear but mind reading  and mind to mind communication only worls via language of the mind and if that is not a common language then one cannot transfer words or thus memories etc.

 HOWEVER, again because ALL my thoughts memories etc are verbal not visual i concede that imagery might also be used by others as a form of language.  

Well no not really, i'm not sure that you understand the comment, but that would really be a good answer to some other comment. If we are born as you say with a pre-existing language of the mind it should not have a dialect specific to a regional area because no child knows where it is when it's born here or any where else in the universe, but will encounter the same circumstances of development in life. So if as you suggest that language would be of concepts and while you are in your in the dream world you should be able to mind meld with your space buddy arachnid with the tool belt and speak to him/her/it in that language, I mean it's a dream right.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Well no not really, i'm not sure that you understand the comment, but that would really be a good answer to some other comment. If we are born as you say with a pre-existing language of the mind it should not have a dialect specific to a regional area because no child knows where it is when it's born here or any where else in the universe, but will encounter the same circumstances of development in life. So if as you suggest that language would be of concepts and while you are in your in the dream world you should be able to mind meld with your space buddy arachnid with the tool belt and speak to him/her/it in that language, I mean it's a dream right.

jmccr8

No Ive never said we are BORN with a preexisting language of the mind  We have the genetic/biological capacity to learn sophisticated language.

As infants we learn both language of the mind and spoken language.

Usually both go together, although someone who is physically mute might still be able to learn language of the mind ie to THINK in sophisticated sentences ideas concepts etc.

A child who is not taught to speak, will not learn to think with language of the mind either.  The only difference is that language of the mind is constructed inside your head  and you become aware of your stream of consciousness around the age of 4.  A child also learns increasingly complex spoken language during this time beginning with very concrete words /meanings and only slowly learning abstract symbolic or conceptual language which again seems to evolve around the age of 3 or 4.

Dont know about dialects but i suspect that  a person's language of the mind has the same dialect as their spoken voice  It certainly has the same inflections  vocabulary etc You cannot think in a language you  have not learned  just as you cannot speak in a language you have not learned  with any sense of meaning 

You can do anything in a dream and yes if it was just a dream i could and do become anything.  However even in my dreams i can only think in english.. I might be able to hear an alien voice and translate it into english, but this would just be use of my imaginative skills  ie one part of my mind creating the alien language, while the other part translates it into english . Indeed this is quite common in my dreams 

The fact that in encounters with aliens while extending my consciousness  I CANNOT do this is indicative that these might be more than dreams My mind and imagination cannot translate a foreign or alien language which it has not made up itself

Can you explain how, in a real situation, anyone could understand either the verbal, or mental, language of a foreigner or alien.     

In projecting your consciousness you are travelling to real places and encountering real things as an observer  Thus the rules of normal reality apply, not the rules of dreams  Eg i once travelled/projected to a city that i eventually discovered was  La paz.

I observed many interesting sites including a park of the explorers and shop fronts with aztec or mayan steles.  The city was high up in mountains and had a lake and an airport separating parts of it.

 However i couldn't ascertain the name of the city as all signs were in a foreign language Only through later research was i able to work out which city I had been travelling to and verify the sights i had seen while travelling.  If this had been a dream my mind would have been able to  allocate names and been able to " translate"  them for me. Because the y were real foreign words in a real city,  i could not decipher them.  

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

AAH, cough cough, what happened to your religion of one, not enough hitting the collection plate?

jmccr8

 

No, that only existed momentarily to dispute you .

Now no one now is arguing that Walkerism isn't a religion, so he doesn't have to insist it is .

..... unless, he forgot he was insisting it was  .... but we didn't   .

Goodness !  That makes us a bunch of     ' reality checkers'  ( for him )     

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

AAH, cough cough, what happened to your religion of one, not enough hitting the collection plate?

jmccr8

I never said that I had a religion of one Only that a person can have a religion of  one  I don't consider my connection to god religious because it is not based on codified and ritualised beliefs  it is like a relationship with a parent, sibling ,or wife  However IF  I acted based on religious beliefs and expressed this in rituals and codified forms of behaviour then it WOULD be religious. 

[jmccr8]

7 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I never said that I had a religion of one Only that a person can have a religion of  one  I don't consider my connection to god religious because it is not based on codified and ritualised beliefs  it is like a relationship with a parent, sibling ,or wife  However IF  I acted based on religious beliefs and expressed this in rituals and codified forms of behaviour then it WOULD be religious. 

 

On 14/09/2017 at 8:58 PM, Mr Walker said:

I will try to answer this by tying together personal connection to god and religious connections to god.

I have one, my wife has the other..

 The point in both is how your knowledge or belief leads you to think and to behave.   Whether your god is personal or mainstream, if it leads you to harm yourself, others, or your world, or limits the potential of any of these things,  then it is not the right god for you. If it gives you strength power joy and peace,   causes you to work towards helping others and the environment, then it Is the right god for for you.

I've answered how i see a religion.

If i act, based on a set of beliefs, with uniformity and coherence, then i am living a religious life, and am religious, even if my religion only consists of me.  

Well maybe you could explain how this works then because I see you making a claim then making another claim. Just covering all the bases hmmm.

jmccr8 

[Mr Walker]

3 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

No, that only existed momentarily to dispute you .

Now no one now is arguing that Walkerism isn't a religion, so he doesn't have to insist it is .

..... unless, he forgot he was insisting it was  .... but we didn't   .

Goodness !  That makes us a bunch of     ' reality checkers'  ( for him )     

I think it might be too subtle a difference for you to understand BTE.  I have explained it the best i can   My life is individual , but not religious. I am not a religious person.  I don't have faiths or beliefs around which i construct behaviours.  BUT if my behaviour was based around individualised religious beliefs, and involved rituals  and legalism, based on my beliefs, then it WOULD be a religion of one. It certainly is not a  lifestyle   shared with anyone else that i know of. but is based on outcomes of behaviors ie i live in a way designed to optimise outcomes for me and those i love, my community and my planet.

If you go back over all my time on UM you will find that i have always argued, first that i am not religious and second that i dont have the capacity to hold beliefs based on faith    I live elements of christianity because they work in practice for me and are the basis for my society. I also include some lifestyle practices espoused by buddhists, jews, muslims, and jainists.  At heart, if anything, I am a gaean who tries to exist within the web of life and consciousness which surrounds me, without damaging it, and while trying to strengthen and improve it .    

[Mr Walker]

Just now, jmccr8 said:

 

Well maybe you could explain how this works then because I see you making a claim then making another claim. Just covering all the bases hmmm.

jmccr8 

I cant help how you think, or perceive it  

This is my life, and how i live it. It is complex and I live with a great deal of self awareness, and self control of my thoughts and behaviours  Again, if you go back over the 13 or more years i have been on um you will find  a consistency to my posts. 

A religion is based on belief and expressed through ritualised and codified behaviors. I live what might appear to be a religious based life but is not.

It is based on humanist, value based ethics and moralities. Not practices codified from a religious belief. I haven't been in a church except for funerals etc for 20 years  I don't pray i don't worship, i dont follow a theology or a belief system. i live by establishing what the most constructive and best outcome based behaviours are, available to me

 I didn't encounter god until i was 22 I was raised with a strong set of humanist based values, ethics, and moralities, and taught to look at the effect any behaviour would have on myself and others, then chose the behaviour which brought about the best outcome  for the most people

Because i live in a christian based social system i live more by their rules. if i lived in a buddhist sikh   muslim or jewish community i would arrange my behaviours to meet local customs and expectations. it is my individual and personal connection with god which is important and that can exist in any environment Even  a person who does not believe in gods can know one, if it manifests in physical form to them.   

[back to earth]

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I think it might be too subtle a difference for you to understand BTE.  I have explained it the best i can  

We know .... you tried very hard to point out you had a religion and it was your own religion constructed by you ;

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 5:48 PM, Mr Walker said:

Fraid not. Religion is religion I basically constructed my own  Many, if not most, humans modify an existing religion and live by it in a way which works for them Almost no one lives by every word of a religion. I think I agree with your principle however even tough i see it as a religion Every individual must create their own psychological understanding of self and nonself and, in doing so, reach an understanding of the importance spirit, belief, and faith, play in their life   

 

 

Then you went on to dispute with J about how valid it was and the definition of religion and all this stuff to prove your point that you had a religion.

Now you are denying you ever said that.

and, as usual, its all our fault .... again           

 

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 

 

My life is individual , but not religious. I am not a religious person.

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 5:48 PM, Mr Walker said:

Fraid not. Religion is religion I basically constructed my own  Many, if not most, humans modify an existing religion and live by it in a way which works for them Almost no one lives by every word of a religion. I think I agree with your principle however even tough i see it as a religion Every individual must create their own psychological understanding of self and nonself and, in doing so, reach an understanding of the importance spirit, belief, and faith, play in their life   

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't have faiths or beliefs around which i construct behaviours.  BUT if my behaviour was based around individualised religious beliefs, and involved rituals  and legalism, based on my beliefs, then it WOULD be a religion of one. It certainly is not a  lifestyle   shared with anyone else that i know of. but is based on outcomes of behaviors ie i live in a way designed to optimise outcomes for me and those i love, my community and my planet.   If you go back over all my time on UM you will find that i have always argued, first that i am not religious

No thanks ... I am not a masochist !    Besides, I only need to go back to last Wednesday ;

On ‎14‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 5:48 PM, Mr Walker said:

Fraid not. Religion is religion I basically constructed my own  Many, if not most, humans modify an existing religion and live by it in a way which works for them Almost no one lives by every word of a religion. I think I agree with your principle however even tough i see it as a religion Every individual must create their own psychological understanding of self and nonself and, in doing so, reach an understanding of the importance spirit, belief, and faith, play in their life   

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

and second that i dont have the capacity to hold beliefs based on faith    I live elements of christianity because they work in practice for me and are the basis for my society. I also include some lifestyle practices espoused by buddhists, jews, muslims, and jainists.  At heart, if anything, I am a gaean who tries to exist within the web of life and consciousness which surrounds me, without damaging it, and while trying to strengthen and improve it .    

Nice try, but it totally contradicts the argument you had with J

 

......   wait   for   it .....

 

 

 

 

 

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I cant help how you think, or perceive it  

This is my life, and how i live it. It is complex and I live with a great deal of self awareness, and self control of my thoughts and behaviours  Again, if you go back over the 13 or more years i have been on um you will find  a consistency to my posts. 

A religion is based on belief and expressed through ritualised and codified behaviors. I live what might appear to be a religious based life but is not.

It is based on humanist, value based ethics and moralities. Not practices codified from a religious belief. I haven't been in a church except for funerals etc for 20 years  I don't pray i don't worship, i dont follow a theology or a belief system. i live by establishing what the most constructive and best outcome based behaviours are, available to me

 I didn't encounter god until i was 22 I was raised with a strong set of humanist based values, ethics, and moralities, and taught to look at the effect any behaviour would have on myself and others, then chose the behaviour which brought about the best outcome  for the most people

Because i live in a christian based social system i live more by their rules. if i lived in a buddhist sikh   muslim or jewish community i would arrange my behaviours to meet local customs and expectations. it is my individual and personal connection with god which is important and that can exist in any environment Even  a person who does not believe in gods can know one, if it manifests in physical form to them.   

I have gone though a great deal of the almost 900 pages of your posts again just recently when I invited you to the other thread to discuss your unwavering positions  that are consistently revised to cover all the bases. They read like a guy who argues with himself out loud and with such determination to win an argument with himself. so tell me if you ever win that one sided argument will you banish to loser.

jmccr8 

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I have gone though a great deal of the almost 900 pages of your posts again just recently when I invited you to the other thread to discuss your unwavering positions  that are consistently revised to cover all the bases. They read like a guy who argues with himself out loud and with such determination to win an argument with himself. so tell me if you ever win that one sided argument will you banish to loser.

jmccr8 

What you see as revision is usually me explaining in more detail my response when aspects of it are questioned or challenged. In other words it answers in more detail the questions arising form my original comment    it all exists fully formed in my mind, and has done for decades but it would take thousands of words to say everything in one post So i answer a  question then give more detail or explanation as  that answer is questioned.

 I developed my views philosophies values and attitudes as a child and teenager, and only alter them as/if more knowledge becomes available to inform me.

I haven't changed a position on a basic moral question, or ethical situation, for 50 years.  Why would i, if i've worked them out right/correctly in the first place, and the y are demonstrably correct.

Ive been  utilising different forms of intelligence and aspects of mind to analyse and deabte such questions  within my consciousness, since i was a child and also engaged  in hundreds of hours of debate with my friends when we were teengers  on such questions  We would go for  walk in the evening lie down on a lawn somewhere look up at the strs and debate all the great issues of life and all the great philosophical questions  By the time we were in senior high school such conversations, discussions, and debates, could last until the sun came up and we all got hungry.Inner deabte using logic vs emotional intelligence, instinctive belief vs evidenced knowledge, or just using  logic from  different starting points and values   is an excellent way to learn to think and to hone your thinking skills  There are no winners or losers in such a mind.

One view will prevail, but the mind is always the winner.

Sometimes logic will lead to one prevailing view, while emotion or instinct leads to another.  Then you have to weigh the outcomes when each pov is acted upon to see which is the best/ most constructive.   

[jmccr8]

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

What you see as revision is usually me explaining in more detail my response when aspects of it are questioned or challenged. In other words it answers in more detail the questions arising form my original comment    it all exists fully formed in my mind, and has done for decades but it would take thousands of words to say everything in one post So i answer a  question then give more detail or explanation as  that answer is questioned.

 I developed my views philosophies values and attitudes as a child and teenager, and only alter them as/if more knowledge becomes available to inform me.

I haven't changed a position on a basic moral question, or ethical situation, for 50 years.  Why would i, if i've worked them out right/correctly in the first place, and the y are demonstrably correct.

Ive been  utilising different forms of intelligence and aspects of mind to analyse and deabte such questions  within my consciousness, since i was a child and also engaged  in hundreds of hours of debate with my friends when we were teengers  on such questions  We would go for  walk in the evening lie down on a lawn somewhere look up at the strs and debate all the great issues of life and all the great philosophical questions  By the time we were in senior high school such conversations, discussions, and debates, could last until the sun came up and we all got hungry.Inner deabte using logic vs emotional intelligence, instinctive belief vs evidenced knowledge, or just using  logic from  different starting points and values   is an excellent way to learn to think and to hone your thinking skills  There are no winners or losers in such a mind.

One view will prevail, but the mind is always the winner.

Sometimes logic will lead to one prevailing view, while emotion or instinct leads to another.  Then you have to weigh the outcomes when each pov is acted upon to see which is the best/ most constructive.   

No actually what I saw was you changing like a 180 degrees and countering your position black and white are fairly obvious no matter how grey it may look to you, and childhood memories are how you try to distract form the obvious discrepancy. Just like you did with your religion of one. AND right now I don't want to take you to task on the rest of this mental mess you wrote, one thread max for shut-down okay, or you can come to the Derailers Anonymous thread and work out these oddities there.

jmccr8

Edited September 17, 2017 by jmccr8