Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

[Mr Walker]

4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I find it interesting that none of those many people ever come here to support you claim of this real and physical god.Why doesn't he join the forum and speak on his own behalf?

jmccr8 

Which many people?  There have been a dozen posters over the years with the same relationship with god as i claim  and there remain half a dozen even now. Look up the statistics about how many people worldwide claim to have had a t least one physical contact with god, or one of gods avatars.  Read any of the hundreds  of books about the topic.

How do you KNOW god is NOT present on the forum as an avatar, or in human form ?  

I can report to you verbatim the words of god to me, but this is meaningless to you, because god is speaking to me and to my life my experiences and my contexts.

When he gives marriage counselling to me, it is not transferrable to you. When he protects me,   empowers me, transforms me this is not something i can transfer to you as knowldge  When he educates me, then i can, and do, pass that wisdom on But generally many people are afraid to act on such wisdoms because of what it means to their lives  They do not WANT to know that they can live a life without fear, anger, hate, lust, envy, greed,etc.  Without anxiety, stress, confusion   etc  Without loneliness, depression,  isolation  etc

.  They are so conditioned to expect these things that they can't believe we do not have to live with them if we live with god.    Rather than just be able to live joyous and content,with meaning and purpose,  they turn to drugs,sex,  or other forms of approval seeking, to make themselves happy, when happiness is a simple achievable state of mind, once your consciousness is raised through connection to god .

 

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, rodentraiser said:

That's fine and it makes sense, IF there actually is a god. In the case of the two men, the woman is obviously physically alive and there. But before you can make a point about different people seeing God in different ways, first he has to exist. And I  1) doubt he exists and if he does exist, I  2) don't think he's the god everyone says he is.

I don't think he's crueler, but I do think he's indifferent. I think as people who believe in one of approximately 4200 religions that each claim to have the one true god and living on a minor planet circling a minor star in a small galaxy that is only one of several galaxies in our group of galaxies out of thousands of groups of galaxies, we have to have a pretty big ego thinking we're so all fired up important in this universe that out of all the other planets and universes and planets in those universes, that the big cheese singled us out for anything special.

Edited to add: I'm swell headed sometimes, but not that swell headed.

True. For me it is a factual given that "god" is a real physical powerful and caring entity who has shared my life for over 45 years However I am also explaining psychologically why there are so many god forms/constructs. It is not necessarily because there  are many god forms but because the r are many different human minds

You will know god when you and god make a connection, either on the level of self aware consciousness ie mind to mind, or when you encounter a god form in the flesh.  Only then will your mind have to consider how it will deal with this reality  It is a lot like accommodating a partner in a marriage . The sort of person YOU are will shape the relationship just a s much as the sort of person god is (or your partner is)   

Ps the cosmic consciousness extends across this galaxy a t least, connecting all self aware consciousnesses There are thousands of different alien life forms out there and the self aware forms  range from    close to australopithecus level through to beings who manipulate energy and matter at will using mind and technology.  There is a complex communications and transportation network linking all systems with  self aware consciousness including earth.  This allows a fairly primitive mind like a humans to piggy back on and network with the central cosmic consciousness and the galactic internet of consciousness  This god form is responsible for maintaining the galactic civilization, and uplifting races like humans,  while ensuring the y develop the wisdom to survive or fail without interference  We are NOT especially important, yet ALL self aware entities are important, because together we actually contribute to the cosmic consciousness and have our part to play in it.  

[XenoFish]

3 hours ago, rodentraiser said:

I have a black soul.

At least you have one. I'm a ginger. I have no soul.

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Arbenol said:

Can we now add speed-watching to your impressive list of super-powers?

No I am limited by the speed of a streaming service Watched  the latest episode of the last ship and 3 episodes of the vikings last night, starting at 10 pm  and finishing a t 2 am Started the vikings again at  8 am and finished about  9. 30, then got up to get breakfast for my wife and I  and start the day. Also watched  about 4 episodes of Flinta (a turkish detective series set in  the ottoman empire)  with my wife    Spent two hours running the dogs, an hour shopping, and going to the bakery, prepared apricot chicken and apricot crumble for tea. Played some online pokies via face book, read a book online  did some work in the yard  Got tea and also spent some time here on UM. Quiet day really. Intend to finish off another 4 episodes of the vikings tonight, read another book online and maybe also watch the last few episodes of Flinta (about 160 altogether ) Half an hour on the treadmill because it is too dark to walk around our streets at night,and maybe, if time, watch a movie from one of the streaming sites  

The wonders of modern technologies. All on a 25/5 mbps plan, with a 1000 gb download per month Very lucky that my download is always between 20 and 25 mbps, even in the busiest times, and with my wife on netflix, , maybe because our town is not big enough to fill the  "pipes" of download,  from the tower to  individual  receivers, to capacity  

Edited September 14, 2017 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Which many people?  There have been a dozen posters over the years with the same relationship with god as i claim  and there remain half a dozen even now. Look up the statistics about how many people worldwide claim to have had a t least one physical contact with god, or one of gods avatars.  Read any of the hundreds  of books about the topic.

How do you KNOW god is NOT present on the forum as an avatar, or in human form ?  

I can report to you verbatim the words of god to me, but this is meaningless to you, because god is speaking to me and to my life my experiences and my contexts.

When he gives marriage counselling to me, it is not transferrable to you. When he protects me,   empowers me, transforms me this is not something i can transfer to you as knowldge  When he educates me, then i can, and do, pass that wisdom on But generally many people are afraid to act on such wisdoms because of what it means to their lives  They do not WANT to know that they can live a life without fear, anger, hate, lust, envy, greed,etc.  Without anxiety, stress, confusion   etc  Without loneliness, depression,  isolation  etc

.  They are so conditioned to expect these things that they can't believe we do not have to live with them if we live with god.    Rather than just be able to live joyous and content,with meaning and purpose,  they turn to drugs,sex,  or other forms of approval seeking, to make themselves happy, when happiness is a simple achievable state of mind, once your consciousness is raised through connection to god .

 

Because it is really you talking to yourself.

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

For me, life and existence are kinda like golf.  I mean, it's beauty and tragedy, pleasure and pain, all at once.   I'm in paradise....but I have a challenge and the tools to get the job done.  Sometimes, it's like heaven.  I crush off the tee on the first hole, make bird and off to a run.  When you pure a golf club, it's magic....like butter.  Then, you get the nice physics display....a good show.  It's a thrill to bash that little ball 280 yards down the middle.  Then all the sudden, you shank one in the bushes! .

Aaaargghh!!!

So, you re-tee and put it in the water.  Fail.  Punch in the face.  Now you're shooting 5 from the drop zone on a par 3.  Yep....that's how life is....in these eyes anyway.  You can see perfection but never quite get there.  

There is no such thing as perfection, Guyv. 

Imho realizing this takes off a lot of pressure.

Hugs and growth to you, for whatever you are going through.

 

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

8 hours ago, Aquila King said:

 YAY, STUBBLY!!!!!!!!!  

I've been waiting for someone to engage in intelligent discussions with!!

 

 

too bad I have to go to bed.  night night.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww  Shucks!!     

Here's the thing though............................................. 

I need to catch up!!!   Threads have a habit of exploding around here to upteenth pages!!! But, I'll try!! I'm really going to try!!! 

If not, well....................................... I hope I'm funny at it.          

8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

9 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Not really. 

We all have to die, someday. We don't necessarily have to jump off a building, though.

Sometimes people actually do let faith kill them, though. Or others.

Death comes to all, Rose. People who would do that are sick, anyway. You don't need religion, atheism or spiritualism to be crazy.

He's right! Because I do crazy without any of that or anything else for that matter. ........... or manner.............or how that saying goes.  

8 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

As you probably know by now, I'm not anti-spirituality. But I am anti-dogma. I don't like organized religion. There's a ton of bs.

I find this very interesting. I feel, that's how I am. (and that's without being raised in a 'forced' situation of religion) I feel free, and I'm saying this of my subjective self here. It's like a playground for me. And to reflect on my secular raised background, I feel less of any tug of any organized religion. And to me, it makes sense to me. 

I can really understand the spirituality of it. Feeling the non-materialism of it, and not having to go through any 'planned symbolisms or thought rituals', if I'm getting it correctly. I often wonder or get frustrated at the 'lectures' from some about how I should do this or do that, when it doesn't make sense to me.   But, to feel a sense of peace, and the understanding of kindness and caring, and feeling of being taken care off in a spiritual sense, (and yes, I say this as a subjective experience) that I understand. I feel the skepticism of various parts of mainstream religions and their tenets, because I see how they don't make sense to me, based on my secular upbringing. If that makes sense. 

 

[jmccr8]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Fraid not. Religion is religion I basically constructed my own  Many, if not most, humans modify an existing religion and live by it in a way which works for them Almost no one lives by every word of a religion. I think I agree with your principle however even tough i see it as a religion Every individual must create their own psychological understanding of self and nonself and, in doing so, reach an understanding of the importance spirit, belief, and faith, play in their life   

So you have a congegation of followers with a political religious structure and rituals? If not you have a personal belief not a religion.

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Well I think most people know what they are talking about.  The problem i s transferring that experienced knowledge into another human being's mind.  

?

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Sherapy

[Will Due]

23 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

There is no such thing as perfection, Guyv. 

Imho realizing this takes off a lot of pressure.

Hugs and growth to you, for whatever you are going through.

 

 

I have to humbly disagree with you Sheri.

There most definitely is perfection.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I have to humbly disagree with you Sheri.

There most definitely is perfection.

 

 

Well Will, what is your argument for perfection then? 

Let's hear it. 

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

So you have a congegation of followers with a political religious structure and rituals? If not you have a personal belief not a religion.

jmccr8

Organized religions (the religion of others) can never be personal religion. You can believe in them though.

Only personal religion can be true and it doesn't matter what or how you believe in it.

True religion is a relationship (spirituality) based on love, faith and service.

 

 

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Well Will, what is your argument for perfection then? 

Let's hear it. 

I don't have a lot of time unfortunately.

But you said nothing is perfect or something like that.

Sheri, come on, you're perfect. I bet your husband thinks so.

Got to go.

 

 

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Which many people?  There have been a dozen posters over the years with the same relationship with god as i claim  and there remain half a dozen even now. Look up the statistics about how many people worldwide claim to have had a t least one physical contact with god, or one of gods avatars.  Read any of the hundreds  of books about the topic.

How do you KNOW god is NOT present on the forum as an avatar, or in human form ?  

I can report to you verbatim the words of god to me, but this is meaningless to you, because god is speaking to me and to my life my experiences and my contexts.

When he gives marriage counselling to me, it is not transferrable to you. When he protects me,   empowers me, transforms me this is not something i can transfer to you as knowldge  When he educates me, then i can, and do, pass that wisdom on But generally many people are afraid to act on such wisdoms because of what it means to their lives  They do not WANT to know that they can live a life without fear, anger, hate, lust, envy, greed,etc.  Without anxiety, stress, confusion   etc  Without loneliness, depression,  isolation  etc

.  They are so conditioned to expect these things that they can't believe we do not have to live with them if we live with god.    Rather than just be able to live joyous and content,with meaning and purpose,  they turn to drugs,sex,  or other forms of approval seeking, to make themselves happy, when happiness is a simple achievable state of mind, once your consciousness is raised through connection to god .

 

Oh you know tje ones that can see and interact with your physical god, don't pretend that this is the first time that we and I do mean you and I not to mention sevetal other posters have asked you for validation. Remember how we discussed scientific method which you claimed to have done, you know we spent a couple of months debating that issue that boiled down to realitu checkers and self evaluation which is not scientific method to anyone but you. None of us have changed we are still the same people with the same standard for evidence, are you now willing to provid valid documentation for this physical entity that you call god/angel/alien because I and otjets will still make rewuests for documentation every time you bring him into a thread.

You won't come to the othet thread as invited are you prepared to engage here now that you opened your god door here?

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

We are increasingly close to the technology to do this now  You upload  the identity and memories stored in the brain, into a machine or another brain. This gives you two identical personalities which slowly diverge over time. If you do this regularly you can remerge  memories and identities  thus, one could learn a language, another a skill and both copies would have the mental but not physical skills.

 Theoretically you could produce dozens of copies of your self  This is becoming possible as we come to understand the  actual physical nature of mind . There are scientists who have been working on this for a few decades now, and believe that their children will actually become virtually immortal   thanks to the abilty to record, store, and reproduce, everything which exists in a human mind.

There are at least two groups working to different ends One is trying to create an artificial intelligence which replicates the human brain while the other is looking a t transferring from one human host to another. 

Amazing how you have single handedly worked out how a nonexistent technology works my gee wilikers Nasa needs you for their spaced program.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Organized religions (the religion of others) can never be personal religion. You can believe in them though.

Only personal religion can be true and it doesn't matter what or how you believe in it.

True religion is a relationship (spirituality) based on love, faith and service.

 

 

Sorry Will no offence to you but a religion is an organization of a group of people that worship together and are rcognized as an institution that assembles and follows specific teachings other than that it is a belief system and that is how society agrees to express the concept.

jmccr8

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Sorry Will no offence to you but a religion is an organization of a group of people that worship together and are rcognized as an institution that assembles and follows specific teachings other than that it is a belief system and that is how society agrees to express the concept.

jmccr8

That's right. It is.

But true religion is not that. It's anything but that.

I wish I had more time.

The whole thing (religion) will eventually become something entirely different than what we think of it now and it will take many generations for religion to become transformed, redefined.

 

 

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, Will Due said:

That's right. It is.

But true religion is not that. It's anything but that.

I wish I had more time.

The whole thing (religion) will eventually become something entirely different than what we think of it now and it will take many generations for religion to become transformed, redefined.

 

 

That may take a fair bit of time to evolve to that point and given present condition globally not likely to happen in my lifetime.

Then again my persoal veiw doesn't see god in the same context and I am qquite content with my position so not likely to change. I don't have a problem with you finding comfort in your faith it gives you comfort.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Sorry for the typos using phone and it's a bumpy ride.

jmccr8

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, rodentraiser said:

That's fine and it makes sense, IF there actually is a god. In the case of the two men, the woman is obviously physically alive and there. But before you can make a point about different people seeing God in different ways, first he has to exist. And I  1) doubt he exists and if he does exist, I  2) don't think he's the god everyone says he is.

I don't think he's crueler, but I do think he's indifferent. I think as people who believe in one of approximately 4200 religions that each claim to have the one true god and living on a minor planet circling a minor star in a small galaxy that is only one of several galaxies in our group of galaxies out of thousands of groups of galaxies, we have to have a pretty big ego thinking we're so all fired up important in this universe that out of all the other planets and universes and planets in those universes, that the big cheese singled us out for anything special.

Edited to add: I'm swell headed sometimes, but not that swell headed.

I find your thoughts very interesting. I can't argue how you see him or her indifferent, because as you said, it's you who finds this. I personally think that he or she is looking out for us (me) ((I know, a bit self-centered there, (sorry) )), but I'm saying this from a subjective personal point of view. I think, there are many understandable reasons why we all come to this outlook. I feel, considering how subjective and hardly provable varying religious aspects are, that's all I think it can be. 

I would think, all inputs are cool here.   I personally feel, that when something that hasn't been objectively provable, and it's really a subjective outlook, I don't think explaining it as an objective truth is going to be one hundred percent taken seriously by all. If at the least, I tend to by pass it and go to other stuff. So, I feel your point of view is almost like mine.  

 

[Aquila King]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

There most definitely is perfection.

Sorry Will, but I have to agree with Sherapy on this one.

So long as you can perceive of a anything being potentially better than it is at it's current state, then it is not perfect. Perfection doesn't allow for better, because it's supposedly the best. I challenge you. Name anything finite - literally anything - and I guarantee I or someone else could come up with a better version of it. 

The only thing that could possibly be what you could consider 'perfect' would be a literally infinite God, yet we have no proof that God himself is infinite. I've said this numerous times to Christians and others who try to make a case for an infinite God: God could simply be maximally powerful, not infinitely powerful, and you would essentially never know the difference. And yet, it's an important distinction. God may hold all the power there is to hold, but that doesn't mean God has infinite power. Of course this diverts to yet another separate topic, but you get my gist.

Perfection doesn't exist. It's just something we humans made up to boost our ego.

[jmccr8]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

People on here become defensive due to ongoing and unremitting attacks on their views, beliefs, and eventually, selves.Will knows something which you try to tell him is not real or does not exist.  Unless he changes his own position, he is obliged to defend it, and why he holds it   In my exerince the harder  a person is attacked one of two responses becomes likely. Withdraw or become stronger in your defence.

It has taken about a month for some posters to go from polite debate with Will, including an expression of interest in his own beliefs, through to personal comments  and more attacking language. Of course Will's responses have, in turn, become more defensive and sharp 

I have yet to see anyone try to make Will change his belief system and several have openly said they think he is a good person and of what he believes helps him and is not harmful to others great.

You don't challenge anyone's beliefs, we ask you for validation gor many of the opinions that you express and you come under fire for your avoiding and trying to change the subject when burden of proof is required. Will isn't you.

jmccr8

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

I don't have a lot of time unfortunately.

But you said nothing is perfect or something like that.

Sheri, come on, you're perfect. I bet your husband thinks so.

Got to go.

 

 

Will, this is sweet, but it isn't an argument for perfection. 

It is an opinion, albeit a good one...

When you have time craft an argument for perfection and I will have a look at it. 

[+Sherapy]

54 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

I have yet to see anyone try to make Will change his belief system and several have openly said they think he is a good person and of what he believes helps him and is not harmful to others great.

You don't challenge anyone's beliefs, we ask you for validation gor many of the opinions that you express and you come under fire for your avoiding and trying to change the subject when burden of proof is required. Will isn't you.

jmccr8

Exactly, Will and Walker are not the same, it is not fair to Will to drag him into Walkers way of dealing with being wrong. 

Will has been very honest about his journey.

No one thinks less of Will in any way, this section is tough in the sense one has to give reasons for their claims and refine their positions when the situation warrants and Will does this, he is humble. 

He has been honest that this passion for the UB has been an issue for a lot of years and he is courageously exploring that with all of us.

 

What he decides is on him and I support his right to conclusions that bring him personal peace, he has not demonstrated himself to be of any harm to anyone. 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Sherapy

[+Liquid Gardens]

25 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

So long as you can perceive of a anything being potentially better than it is at it's current state, then it is not perfect. Perfection doesn't allow for better, because it's supposedly the best. I challenge you. Name anything finite - literally anything - and I guarantee I or someone else could come up with a better version of it. 

The only thing that could possibly be what you could consider 'perfect' would be a literally infinite God, yet we have no proof that God himself is infinite.

True, and I think you're touching on something else here too, which is it doesn't mean much to talk about 'perfect' without any additional qualifiers, I think we always have to ask perfect in what way?  Like in the above, why would a perfect being need to be infinite?  Why is ceasing to exist imperfect?  I'm not asking you to provide answers to those, just noting that I think the answers are pretty much subjective unless we choose a spectrum on which to categorize things being better than other things and somewhat arbitrarily label one end of the spectrum as perfect.  Is it ultimately imperfect that we can contract infections and die from it?  To us maybe, not to bacteria though.