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rodentraiser

Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

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Aquila King
43 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:
5 hours ago, Aquila King said:

You simply don't believe it to be true, and that's more than enough reason to reject it right there. ;)

Yes, I understand why people find comfort in believing in an afterlife, that's only natural. But to need to believe it in order to cope... That once again goes back to willfully lying to yourself which makes no sense at all. I probably derive a greater deal of comfort in death due to my belief in the afterlife, yes, but that comfort comes from the fact that I genuinely believe it to be true. Not just cause I want it to be. I know some will disagree with me here and insist that I am just wanting it to be true and that that's why I believe it. But they don't know me, and anyone who does know me knows that that's just not who I am.

I can't stand dishonesty, period. It's one of those things I have a special reason to detest. I can't lie to myself and say it's true just so it gives me comfort. Because in all honesty, it wouldn't give me any comfort if I knew it to be a lie.

They whole concept of forcing oneself to believe something is just beyond me. I seriously doubt sometimes that it's even possible... I know it is for me anyway...

If one does not, and cannot, know if an after life exists or not,  then how can believing in one be a knowing lie?

128137750681320110725-22047-u4vrs1.jpg

Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted?

The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... :wacko:

Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end.

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jmccr8
16 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I assumed it was  a typo.  And you are correct i have no familiarity with menes, nor any desire to become familiar. In another context i might have assumed it was a sarcastic reference to nasa 

When you meld with another consciousness, of course you cant speak the language of their mind, unless they speak one of your languages, or you speak one of theirs

I couldn't link minds with a russian and understand their thoughts, let alone an alien being. 

You can see through their eyes and feel through their senses,  which allows for some contextual understanding. 

Current technology is developing the ability to read minds and transfer thoughts but it requires computer encoding to interpret . This is even more so when  trying to communicate with a mind which thinks in another language.

Roll on the universal translator   I can only think i english so I can only understand linguistic based thoughts in english.

If i could see visual images I might be able to communicate on a visual basis. 

What happened to your pre-existing language of mind? If it was factual all concepts would be understood no matter what verbal language evolved.So your language of mind was English lucky for you you were born in and English speaking country, things would be pretty difficult for you otherwise.:rolleyes::whistle:

jmccr8

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Aquila King

Forgive me if I'm a bit salty tonight Walker, I just had a huge shouting match with my mother today and I'm a bit tense. Thankfully we've made up and we're moving on. Just have a lot on my plate, so, don't take it personal.

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Mr Walker
14 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience

second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship 

Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual  behaviour 

Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting.

Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour  Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour 

 

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jmccr8
8 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

128137750681320110725-22047-u4vrs1.jpg

Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted?

The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... :wacko:

Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end.

Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway.:whistle:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience

second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship 

Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual  behaviour 

Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting.

Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour  Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour 

 

I believe that I have to shave in order to not have hair on my face, how is that not a belief?

jmccr8

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Aquila King
Just now, jmccr8 said:

Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway.:whistle:

jmccr8

I think I finally see what they all meant...

wat.png

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Aquila King
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

I believe that I have to shave in order to not have hair on my face, how is that not a belief?

jmccr8

I believe I have to shave in order to not have hair everywhere else...

...God I hate my effin werewolf bod. <_<

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Aquila King

Maybe I should just call it a night before I say something I really regret...

img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=47519765

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Mr Walker
14 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Wobble wobble wobble, we have gone down this path before and you still insist that you are only telling us this because you need to affirm reality to yourself, okay you succeeded in proving it to yourself why expect validation form us you know that we expect to see documentation other than that it's fiction and not worth discussing maybe put in the story telling threads.

The world I walk in every day is real and yes I do know when I'm dreaming or fantasizing and really don't have an overwhelming need for reality checkers unless I am tanked.

jmccr8

I tell the story because it is true. It is a part of the common physical reality of human existence and thus it is as real (and as important)  for you as it is for me, even though you have not personally encountered this reality as yet

I explain how i established its truth to legitimise me telling it and explain its reality Otherwise it would just be a tall tale  and i would not be here telling and retelling t as truth   It is the difference between telling a true story of encountering an alien being and just making one up and telling it.

Your disbelief does not affect the reality of my experiences   it just influences how you respond to the narrative.

Good Then when or if you encounter anything, from a ghost to an angel, a god to an alien, you will have no difficulty establishing for yourself that it has its own physical reality and does not just exist inside your head.

  Lots of luck trying to convince anyone else of the reality of your encounter, however. You can know something with absolute certainty and yet NEVER be able to prove it to another person.

As i said my use of reality checkers is primarily part of my technique for establishing controlled lucid dreaming and  conscious dream construction.  It is also helpful in establishing the physical existence of anything in the waking world,  however, even if only by demonstrating that  you ARE fully awake and conscious.   

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Aquila King

1rbzo5.jpg

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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Maybe I should just call it a night before I say something I really regret...

img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=47519765

Buck up little camper we are having Smores after singing kumbya

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
24 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

128137750681320110725-22047-u4vrs1.jpg

Wh- what?........................ I'm sorry, did you actually read what I posted?

The 'knowing lie' was in reference to belief, not fact. But most importantly that had nothing at all to do with what I was talking about... I was talking about forcing yourself to believe something by lying to yourself. It's irrelevant as to whether or not the topic in question is or is not actually true. The lie we tell ourselves is "I believe X to be true" when in reality deep down we don't believe X to be true, we really believe Y. You get what I'm saying? It's in believing something to be true that is the lie of the lying belief of the knowing that the afterlife, uh is a big ol' bag a, snickerdoodle, covfefe- Jesus Christ now you've got me all confused... :wacko:

Look, do ya get it now? Good. The end.

Sorry. I  dont get his We construct beliefs and have good psychological reasons to construct a belief.

 Because beliefs cannot be proven true or false, any belief is legitimate, but  the best beliefs serve constructive, functional purposes   if you know something is a lie then you can't construct a belief that it is not,  because knowledge precludes belief (except maybe in cases of severe psychological crisis)

Na I dont get it. I cant do that myself and ive never met a person who did.

You can construct some "opposing" beliefs and you can have beliefs which are hard to justify given what you know But  you either believe x or you believe y That's the nature of belief construction. Some people LIE to others about their real beliefs for a variety of reasons including social acceptance or avoiding conflict but that is a different issue. Becaue no one knows if an after life exists, a person can have some doubts about it; half believing and half disbelieving, for different reasons.

That is not lying to self however, it is genuine uncertainty   

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Mr Walker
27 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Forgive me if I'm a bit salty tonight Walker, I just had a huge shouting match with my mother today and I'm a bit tense. Thankfully we've made up and we're moving on. Just have a lot on my plate, so, don't take it personal.

No i actually found it a reasonable question. It is beyond my experience and doesn't fit my understanding about the nature and  psychological purpose of belief construction by the human mind, however. 

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jmccr8
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I tell the story because it is true. It is a part of the common physical reality of human existence and thus it is as real (and as important)  for you as it is for me, even though you have not personally encountered this reality as yet

I explain how i established its truth to legitimise me telling it and explain its reality Otherwise it would just be a tall tale  and i would not be here telling and retelling t as truth   It is the difference between telling a true story of encountering an alien being and just making one up and telling it.

Your disbelief does not affect the reality of my experiences   it just influences how you respond to the narrative.

Good Then when or if you encounter anything, from a ghost to an angel, a god to an alien, you will have no difficulty establishing for yourself that it has its own physical reality and does not just exist inside your head.

  Lots of luck trying to convince anyone else of the reality of your encounter, however. You can know something with absolute certainty and yet NEVER be able to prove it to another person.

As i said my use of reality checkers is primarily part of my technique for establishing controlled lucid dreaming and  conscious dream construction.  It is also helpful in establishing the physical existence of anything in the waking world,  however, even if only by demonstrating that  you ARE fully awake and conscious.   

Wèll fortunately for me I don't need to convince anyone that I have dreams lucid or otherwise that I believe are real, Hense the lack of using reality checkers. As I said earlier everything in my day to day life is boringly real but excitingly stimulating in the physical sense.

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
32 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

What happened to your pre-existing language of mind? If it was factual all concepts would be understood no matter what verbal language evolved.So your language of mind was English lucky for you you were born in and English speaking country, things would be pretty difficult for you otherwise.:rolleyes::whistle:

jmccr8

Language of mind is a technical term for the way human beings think. It involves verbal and non verbal thought  We think, as adults, basically in the same way, and language, we use to speak to others.

 As infants we develop all our language of the mind while we are learning to speak, read and write. Hence every human's language of mind is the same as the language or languages they can converse in.

My language of mind could not have been other than english, although if i was brain damaged i might never have learned ANY language of mind  a t all.  Concepts,  abstract or theoretical language, symbolic language,  similes, metaphors and memes   etc are quite complex sophisticated forms of language, but they only exist in  verbal language (unless you can also think in actual images which i can not ).

 

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Sorry. I  dont get his We construct beliefs and have good psychological reasons to construct a belief.

 Because beliefs cannot be proven true or false, any belief is legitimate, but  the best beliefs serve constructive, functional purposes   if you know something is a lie then you can't construct a belief that it is not,  because knowledge precludes belief (except maybe in cases of severe psychological crisis)

Na I dont get it. I cant do that myself and ive never met a person who did.

You can construct some "opposing" beliefs and you can have beliefs which are hard to justify given what you know But  you either believe x or you believe y That's the nature of belief construction. Some people LIE to others about their real beliefs for a variety of reasons including social acceptance or avoiding conflict but that is a different issue. Becaue no one knows if an after life exists, a person can have some doubts about it; half believing and half disbelieving, for different reasons.

That is not lying to self however, it is genuine uncertainty   

This is something else Walker, you can't see that people lie to themselves? Hmm, well I guess that peopl who construct false egos for themselves is just lying to everybody else, but to make it seem real one must first convince themselves which of course wouldn't be lying to oneself would it.

jmccr8 

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jmccr8
3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Language of mind is a technical term for the way human beings think. It involves verbal and non verbal thought  We think, as adults, basically in the same way, and language, we use to speak to others.

 As infants we develop all our language of the mind while we are learning to speak, read and write. Hence every human's language of mind is the same as the language or languages they can converse in.

My language of mind could not have been other than english, although if i was brain damaged i might never have learned ANY language of mind  a t all.  Concepts,  abstract or theoretical language, symbolic language,  similes, metaphors and memes   etc are quite complex sophisticated forms of language, but they only exist in  verbal language (unless you can also think in actual images which i can not ).

 

This is quite the deviation from when you first brought up this concept, evolution in progress I guess.

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
30 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Speed reading a million words a week is on of his superpowers, unfortunately we don't know the percentage of absorption that occurs, but he does make complete sense to himself which is all he is really concerned about anyway.:whistle:

jmccr8

I dont use speed reading to read a million words  Speed reading reads  a whole page in a second. I can do this if necessary but in reading for pleasure i just read quickly.  That includes about 2 novels a day (60000-100000 plus  words each, )  plus a lot of newspapers magazines and online material.  Since i have retired, i dont have to read professionally eg marking essays etc But i now read more than when teaching simply because i can devote  more hours in the day to reading  Speed reading is different. Using speed reading i read and fully understood the english patient in 40 minutes (one lunch break) . (82 370 words)    

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jmccr8
39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

First ten points in the first source all relate to individaul experience

second one presents an alternative perspective but does not, again ,say that religion has anything to do with group worship 

Third one cant make up its mind but still doesn't suggest that religion cannot be an individual  behaviour 

Last one doesn't actually address the question at all,although i found it interesting.

Indeed, there is some argument that any ritualised and belief driven behaviour is religious behaviour  Your shaving is ritualised but probably not belief based and thus not religious But if you believed you had to be clean shaven to please god, then this would be part of your personal religious behaviour 

 

The point is that it is debatable which is why I gave those links

jmccr8 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont use speed reading to read a million words  Speed reading reads  a whole page in a second. I can do this if necessary but in reading for pleasure i just read quickly.  That includes about 2 novels a day (60000-100000 plus  words each, )  plus a lot of newspapers magazines and online material.  Since i have retired, i dont have to read professionally eg marking essays etc But i now read more than when teaching simply because i can devote  more hours in the day to reading  Speed reading is different. Using speed reading i read and fully understood the english patient in 40 minutes (one lunch break) . (82 370 words)    

Well That's just peachy but still doesn't address the comprehension issue which was the point of the post, I guess you just sped read that part.

jmccr8 

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Mr Walker
7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

This is something else Walker, you can't see that people lie to themselves? Hmm, well I guess that peopl who construct false egos for themselves is just lying to everybody else, but to make it seem real one must first convince themselves which of course wouldn't be lying to oneself would it.

jmccr8 

No i dont see people lying to themselves  But i was brought up never to lie to anyone. i see some people confused and conflicted but i don't see how a person can sustain two beliefs which  they have constructed if one is in total conflict to the other OR in conflict to facts the y know to be true or false As i said it would be indicative of a severe psychological problem.

If you speak of me I don't have a false ego. I have one i have constructed which is realistic and truthful based on my understanding of myself and my  place in the world. I am honest about both my capabilities and my limitations  However, i believe that a strong ego is a healthy ego, as long a s it is justified, and that too many people do not have enough faith, confidence and pride, in themselves and their achievements, often because their parents did not give it to them as children.    

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

The point is that it is debatable which is why I gave those links

jmccr8 

None of them denied the definition i gave   And this is my point. Often my points are debatable but rarely can they be proven wrong.  

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jmccr8
Just now, Mr Walker said:

No i dont see people lying to themselves  But i was brought up never to lie to anyone. i see some people confused and conflicted but i don't see how a person can sustain two beliefs which  they have constructed if one is in total conflict to the other OR in conflict to facts the y know to be true or false As i said it would be indicative of a severe psychological problem.

If you speak of me I don't have a false ego. I have one i have constructed which is realistic and truthful based on my understanding of myself and my  place in the world. I am honest about both my capabilities and my limitations  However, i believe that a strong ego is a healthy ego, as long a s it is justified, and that too many people do not have enough faith, confidence and pride, in themselves and their achievements, often because their parents did not give it to them as children.    

So this is about you?:( How did that happen?

 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

None of them denied the definition i gave   And this is my point. Often my points are debatable but rarely can they be proven wrong.  

If it's debatable it can't be proven right either.;)

jmccr8 

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