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rodentraiser

Why is it spirituality vs skepticism?

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Will Due
22 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

I'm 100% certain there is no god.

Not a shred of doubt.

So you're a brother by a different father?

 

 

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Liquid Gardens
42 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Eh, semantics.

Hmm, the difference between "Joe is stupid" and "the idea that the earth is flat is stupid" seems clear to me, one not being a personal attack and all.

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You're literally suggesting that if a thought alone releases these chemicals, then whatever you're thinking about doesn't exist. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I didn't suggest that, I'm just changing the words in your construction and seeing if you agree with it, which you evidently don't.  My main emphasis was on 'in any way' in your statement.  I agree that it doesn't prove it, but brain chemistry is one possible explanation for religious experiences.  So, 'in a way', it's on the side of suggesting that religious experiences/beliefs are products of the brain and undercuts the idea of an external spiritual origin.

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It is insulting to suggest that the only ones who seem to give a damn about facts are atheists and 'skeptics', while anyone else who suggests that anything spiritual exists is living in an illusion.

Did someone suggest that?

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We care about facts, just as much as you do, you simply build up your skeptical societies to adversely reject every piece of evidence we throw at you regardless.

Sheldrake?  No thanks, been there done that, let me know when we get a lot more replication of results. 

I'm sorry man but I just view the above quote as a cop-out, I just never get these psychological projections about scientists who are skeptics.  The 'argument' seems to be that some scientists will do absolutely anything to adhere to their rigid beliefs, but the problem with this line of reasoning is that it ignores the strong motivations to be rich and famous.  Good evidence for anything spiritual, psychic, or supernatural is Nobel Prize level stuff, probably the most important discovery ever made.  But for some reason stubborn scientists (apparently a ton of them) aren't interested in that.  Wonder if that's any reflection on the state of the evidence and scientific case at this point?

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Aquila King
18 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

I'm 100% certain there is no god.

Not a shred of doubt.

861988982bcd6539913a7d63d6bc068b.jpg

 

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XenoFish

I'm 100% certain that I don't give a **** if god does or doesn't exist.

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Liquid Gardens
44 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I don't know. Since you posited doubts about the brain and it's power to discern, paranoid skepticism must be a natural state. I'm skeptical about pretty much everything, but rely on internal reason and logic to decide what I consider true or not so true. I guess you could best describe me as a rationalizing irrationalist, beholden to none, save my own conscience and consciousness. Gotta go, now. Nice chatting with you, LG. As usual, you're quite thought-provoking.

You also!  I'm still working my way through all the implications of a foundation of 'what I believe about anything might be wrong' for myself, not always fruitfully, but despite that ultimate doubt there sure seems to be a lot that might as well be objectively true.  I'm always interested actually at how the 'irrational' parts of our 'reasoning' factor in and where their boundaries are, but I certainly don't claim to never be irrational myself.  I do try to make it clear that my views are always subject to revision and some of what I post is me throwing out ideas that I haven't put into words before, not me adamantly claiming something with certainty.

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Will Due

I'm a 110% 

Certain.

 

 

 

 

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Sherapy
7 hours ago, Will Due said:

I understand and respect your position.

I have plenty of subjective evidence. We who have this evidence in our personal experiences share them with each other.

Psychologically, we have all conjured ourselves up at the beginning to excersise our faith sincerely without doubting, wholeheartedly without questioning. 

It's because of our faith that there is something more than belief in God being just psychological. In fact, it, psychology, ceases to be a part of belief because of the subjective validating experiences that are continual and causes personal growth progressively.

None of this is a part of unbelief. But other than unbelief being psychological, there is nothing that can be added or taken away from it. The fact that an unbeliever doesn't have any evidence speaks to the fact that unbelief is purely psychological. Because there's no evidence one way or the other, it has to be.

 

 

Psychologically speaking, it doesn't matter if ones perspective is grounded in reality or not one will see it as valid, thus the reason for skepticism. 

So, what I do is evaluate  how grounded in reality a person is by looking at what they say and determine how honest are they about their own sense of reality. Do they recognize/ account for their own habits and patterns of thinking, Are they aware of the tools they use to cope cognitively or emotionally. 

A person who sees belief or god as a tool to help them sustain emotional equilibrium, cope, or see praying as a form of meditation or mindfulness or use gratitude as a way to apply positive reappraisal would not be irrational. 

In fact, there are very few posters on here or have been on here (I could count them on one hand ) who would fit the irrational mold. 

Believing in god in and of itself is not a red flag, and  I don think not believing in god (however) passionately is a red flag either. I think when it is getting down to this it is more of an issue of intolerance. 

 

 

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Will Due
38 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Psychologically speaking, it doesn't matter if ones perspective is grounded in reality or not one will see it as valid, thus the reason for skepticism. 

So, what I do is evaluate  how grounded in reality a person is by looking at what they say and determine how honest are they about their own sense of reality. Do they recognize/ account for their own habits and patterns of thinking, Are they aware of the tools they use to cope cognitively or emotionally. 

A person who sees belief or god as a tool to help them sustain emotional equilibrium, cope, or see praying as a form of meditation or mindfulness or use gratitude as a way to apply positive reappraisal would not be irrational. 

In fact, there are very few posters on here or have been on here (I could count them on one hand ) who would fit the irrational mold. 

Believing in god in and of itself is not a red flag, and  I don think not believing in god (however) passionately is a red flag either. I think when it is getting down to this it is more of an issue of intolerance. 

 

 

Interesting use of the word "intolerance" Sheri, in this discussion of belief.

 

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Theology is the study of the actions and reactions of the human spirit; it can never become a science since it must always be combined more or less with psychology in its personal expression and with philosophy in its systematic portrayal. Theology is always the study of your religion; the study of another's religion is psychology.

 

 

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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Interesting use of the word "intolerance" Sheri, in this discussion of belief.

 

 

 

Is the definition Out of the UB, Will?

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Will Due
Just now, Sherapy said:

Out of the UB, Will?

Yes.

 

 

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Will Due
5 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Is the definition Out of the UB, Will?

While I'm at it, here's some more from the UB. For what it's worth. 

 

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 When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life. The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. Theology constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by living faith. In the higher philosophy of the universe, wisdom, like reason, becomes allied to faith. Reason, wisdom, and faith are man's highest human attainments. Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

 

 

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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

While I'm at it, here's some more from the UB. For what it's worth. 

 

 

 

For me, life experience, especially the "what is" kind, the things that we work through and transcend, become better for is what leads to wisdom. 

I don't know what you have been through, but whatever it was I am glad you found solace and purpose in the UB. 

 

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Guyver
4 hours ago, Will Due said:

I'm a 100% certain of the reality of God.

Not a shred of doubt.

I know, nobody cares. :sleepy:

 

 

I care.  And not everyone on this forum wants to just riff with no serious discussion.  I'd like to know about how you are so convinced that God exists?  What makes you so certain?

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I care.  And not everyone on this forum wants to just riff with no serious discussion.  I'd like to know about how you are so convinced that God exists?  What makes you so certain?

He's probably got excessively high dopamine levels.

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Guyver

I also am convinced of God's existence personally; and consider it to be a fact, based on my own personal experiences.  Yet, I do understand the position of skeptical people who claim that we could be misinterpreting events, or ascribing them to God when they could just be coincidence....etc. In my case, I don't accept that as a valid explanation for some events.

Also, I have a friend who is an atheist, and he happens to be the most knowledgeable person I know with respect to comparative religions, etc. has had so much time in so many different churches...has experienced the "gifts" yet still believe that God as most people understand his is a construct of the human mind.  So, he doesn't really believe in God at all, but if he did....he would accept the notion of some "ultimate consciousness of some sort." 

I get this viewpoint....because nature certainly seems to be very indifferent.  Yet, on an experiential level....even with just nature as a guide.....I see room for believing something more than just birth, reproduction, and death.  

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Will Due
39 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, life experience, especially the "what is" kind, the things that we work through and transcend, become better for is what leads to wisdom. 

I don't know what you have been through, but whatever it was I am glad you found solace and purpose in the UB. 

 

I very much appreciate your kind spirit Sheri. It's refreshing. 

Finding the UB (I think it actually found me) has been a remarkable event in my life. It has enhanced so much. 

I'm just grateful for it and burn to share it with everyone.

 

 

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Will Due
3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

He's probably got excessively high dopamine levels.

That's why I like you Fish. 

 

 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

That's why I like you Fish. 

 

 

If you want to like me you've got to pay upfront. And I work by the hour, my rates are high as well. I ain't cheap.

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Then I would say it would depend on wether or not your position holds that one's self includes an in-dwelling super-physical spirit. Or is it ultimately just physical matter in motion.

Clearly a self aware entity DOES  include an indwelling super- physical spirit  Many of us  know and understand this as a matter of personal fact.

That really is not factually debatable although some people honestly never seem to connect with, or sense consciously, this element of our consciousness .

The argument revolves around what(  scientifically)  this  super-physical  spirit consists of.

Is it a jungian archetype  If so is, it capable of independent manifestation from your consciousness?  is it a construct created by the mind to make order from chaos, and to provide answers to unanswerable questions our minds ask?  Is it a connection to  a wider, perhaps universal, super consciousness.

The mind is an alive, self aware entity, capable of self direction and motivation  It has thus, via evolution, moved beyond being simply  just physical matter in motion, to something more.  

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, CJ1983 said:

do you mean spiritual as in Yoga, incense, mystical quotes over sunset pictures? that sort of thing?

Just the human sense of beauty and our abilty to be creative demonstrates the existence of a quality in the human mind  which we define as spirituality.  Religious spirituality is just one out shoot from this, as is love, as an abstract intellectual concept and construct which we build and maintain in our minds.  

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Will Due
7 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I care.  And not everyone on this forum wants to just riff with no serious discussion.  I'd like to know about how you are so convinced that God exists?  What makes you so certain?

You know, I've been thinking a lot about that, given how this thread has gone for about a day now.

I asked myself that. Why am I so certain?

First, I am, that's for sure. 

When I thought about it, I just don't see any reason to not be certain.

Yes, it's because of the spiritual (relationship) experiences I've had of course. But it's all just so very real to me. 

For me, to doubt my experiences with God, it would be akin to treason. Betrayal.

To me God isn't a God at all. He's a friend first. Then he's a father.

Which makes it impossible for me not to be loyal.

And I desperately want to share him with you. All of you. Because I know him.

 

 

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Will Due
10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If you want to like me you've got to pay upfront. And I work by the hour, my rates are high as well. I ain't cheap.

Do you need a P.O.?

 

 

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XenoFish
Just now, Will Due said:

Do you need a P.O.?

 

 

No all I'll need is you SSN, bank account info, and credit card numbers. I'll get back to in 7-10 business days.:tu: Maybe......

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, freetoroam said:

Ah but Will , it is not about a matter of caring, it is down to a difference of opinions and beliefs.

I'm 100% certain there is no god.

Not a shred of doubt.

i know, not everyone will agree.

I do find that those who believe in a god tend to get "offended" when someone says there is no god. As  non believers goes, they have nothing to get upset or offended about.  Even when i am thrown the religious "curses", my reaction is simple = ::lol:

 

 

 

You cannot be certain of the non existence of anything unless you  have evidences for its non existence.  You can, however, construct a certainty about the existence of anything without needing to have or provide evidences for that things existence which are transferrable to another Your own experiences can provide adequate evidences for certainty of existence, but not for non existence   

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Will Due
8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And I desperately want to share him with you. All of you. Because I know him.

I'm not crazy am I?

 

 

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