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Captain Risky

What Crime Most Changed the Course of History

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Awesome read!

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By definition, "genocide".

Okay, now I'll read the source.

Edit: I;m unmoved.

Edited by Likely Guy
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Hmm well to be fair, I say income tax it's monetary genocide.

jmccr8 

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The assassination of Archduke  Franz Ferdinand. 

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Adam & Eve stole an apple.

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The Penal Laws and the Great Irish Famine (1845-48) that created the Irish diaspora that was instrumental in changing the future of Ireland, Britain, the United Sates, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

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17 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

The Penal Laws and the Great Irish Famine (1845-48) that created the Irish diaspora that was instrumental in changing the future of Ireland, Britain, the United Sates, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

The Irish Famine was a natural event.

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7 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

The Irish Famine was a natural event.

I don't agree with you. There was plenty of food in Ireland, much of it being exported to Britain. There was only a shortage of potatoes. 

Edited by Ozymandias

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13 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

I don't agree with you. There was plenty of food in Ireland, much of it being exported to Britain. There was only a shortage of potatoes. 

The whole of Ireland was part of the UK at the time, so there was no "exporting" going on between Ireland and Britain, merely movement within the same country.

There was a shortage of potatoes due to the potato blight, which also affected Scotland and parts of continental Europe.

What IS true is that the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people - 40% of the population - were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens, causing a fall in mortality.

Edited by Black Monk

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The greatest crime in humanity occurred in mid-January 1981, when the song "Vienna" by Ultravox was held off from the No. 1 spot in the charts by "Shaddap You Face" by Joe Dolce.

The repercussions where seismic. Within months, the sewers exploded in Lousville, a walkway collapsed at the Hyatt Regency , Argentina invaded the Falklands, and the Berlin Wall collapsed.

Edited by RoofGardener
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17 minutes ago, Black Monk said:

The whole of Ireland was part of the UK at the time, so there was no "exporting" going on between Ireland and Britain, merely movement within the same country.

There was a shortage of potatoes due to the potato blight, which also affected Scotland and parts of continental Europe.

What IS true is that the British government established soup kitchens throughout Ireland. At the peak of this scheme, over three million people - 40% of the population - were receiving free rations of food daily from the soup kitchens, causing a fall in mortality.

I hadn't intended to argue this with you here. You obviously have a problem with this issue. The bottom line is that one million Irish people died as a result of starvation and attendant diseases during a period when there was no shortage of food in the country. 

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4 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

I hadn't intended to argue this with you here. You obviously have a problem with this issue. The bottom line is that one million Irish people died as a result of starvation and attendant diseases during a period when there was no shortage of food in the country. 

Yeah. The Irish were to blame for that for willingly selling a lot of that food.

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5 hours ago, Black Monk said:

Yeah. The Irish were to blame for that for willingly selling a lot of that food.

The million Irish who died of starvation and disease had no food to eat, never mind have any to sell. The vast majority of those who died fell into this category.

Those who actually did have food - the food producers - did not sell it either. They ate some of it to stay alive and were required to hand the rest over to their landlords to pay their exhorbitant rents.

It was the landlords who sold the food. Wherever food was being stockpiled or being transported out for export it had to be protected by the police and military. There are innumerable contemporary accounts of this and frequent occasions when the starving population were fired upon with many being killed or wounded. I can post up many instances of such primary evidence if you would like. It makes fascinating if somewhat shocking reading.

You claimed in post #10 that 3 million people were being fed by soup kitchens. The famine occurred over a period of three years. Soup kitchens only operated for six months in 1847 and were discontinued by the British government in September 1847. The number of 3 million being fed was only reached for a very brief period in July 1847. One million people still died while the government adopted a laissez faire policy of do nothing and let matters take their course without any interference.

While none of this can be categorised as an 'unexplained mystery' it certainly does qualify as something that needs explanation. In post #10 you also claimed that Ireland was part of a single country, the UK, and that therefore there was no 'exporting' of food from Ireland to Britain. Well then, how do you explain the death of one million Irish people of starvation and related disease in this single country where there was abundant food? 

Edited by Ozymandias

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11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The greatest crime in humanity occurred in mid-January 1981, when the song "Vienna" by Ultravox was held off from the No. 1 spot in the charts by "Shaddap You Face" by Joe Dolce.

The repercussions where seismic. Within months, the sewers exploded in Lousville, a walkway collapsed at the Hyatt Regency , Argentina invaded the Falklands, and the Berlin Wall collapsed.

Nice joke, but the Wall came down in '89 not '81.

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5 hours ago, Carnoferox said:

Nice joke, but the Wall came down in '89 not '81.

I did say "within months", Carnoferox.

In this case, about 98 months ! :P

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2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I did say "within months", Carnoferox.

In this case, about 98 months ! :P

What'sa matter you?

Hey, gotta no respect ...B)

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11 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The million Irish who died of starvation and disease had no food to eat, never mind have any to sell. The vast majority of those who died fell into this category.

They died because of the naturally-occurring potato blight.

Quote

Those who actually did have food - the food producers - did not sell it either. They ate some of it to stay alive and were required to hand the rest over to their landlords to pay their exhorbitant rents.

Paying rents for rented accommodation is just a fact of life. I have to pay £100 a week for my flat.

Quote

Soup kitchens only operated for six months in 1847 and were discontinued by the British government in September 1847.

The Soup Kitchen Act was only a temporary measure, but it did halt the rate of mortality.

Quote

One million people still died while the government adopted a laissez faire policy of do nothing and let matters take their course without any interference.

You really do need to stop the victimhood complex. Ireland wasn't the only nation hit by the potato plight and a resultant famine in the 1840s.

Quote

In post #10 you also claimed that Ireland was part of a single country, the UK, and that therefore there was no 'exporting' of food from Ireland to Britain. Well then, how do you explain the death of one million Irish people of starvation and related disease in this single country where there was abundant food? 

You can';t export from one part of a country to another. Countries export to each other, but a country cannot export to itself.

Edited by Black Monk

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1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

You really do need to stop the victimhood complex. Ireland wasn't the only nation hit by the potato plight and a resultant famine in the 1840s.

I am not a victim but a very happy, well-adjusted and successful family and professional man in his sixties.

I am not talking about other famines or other places. My point was to contibute to the OP's theme concerning 'What crime most changed the course of history?' That a million Irish people died from starvation and related disease in a country where there was no shortage of food is a crime and an historical fact. That that gave a massive impetus to the Irish diaspora that in turn had a considerable impact on the development of other parts of the world is also an historical fact.

You say that the people 'died because of a naturally-occurring potato blight'. Of course the blight was a natural occurrence but it did not cause the famine. Ireland was heaving with an abundance of food of all kinds. The 'famine' was man-made. Yet another historical fact.

Now I don't think we should hijack this thread any further. If you want a full-blown and detailed debate on this issue why not open a separate thread about it?

Apologies to Captain Risky and others.

Edited by Ozymandias
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I have to agree with Ozymandius on this one.

"The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the Famine."

Most North-Western European countries suffered from the potato blight, as did America. However, non of them had mass starvation as a result.

On the other hand, this was not - legally speaking - a crime under English - or any other European - law.

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Agree :)  And it should be noted that had the majority who suffered as a result of the blight been East Anglian or Devonian or Northumbrian, the response of the Victorian "elite" would have been exactly the same.   Laissez-faire.

Or, put another way, it wouldn't have mattered how loudly Bob Geldof had sworn, the "Irish Aid" concert wouldn't have a raised a penny.

It wasn't a crime.  People just thought, and acted, differently then.   And we should not judge the past on today's values - lest we be judged ourselves ;) 

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